The Final Poll

You insisted the Republicans were guilty of fraud in Florida, and refuse (because you are, to all appearances, unable) to provide any evidence to back that claim up. So, you simply assume that, because one side does something in one state, the other side must be doing the same thing in another state (and let’s pick Florida, 'cause it’s so controversial!), and to hell with the evidence.

No what I was getting at is that there was no direct evidence in either case that anything wrong really occured. In the case of both its troubling, but the fact is that its entirely possible Buchanan would’ve done just as well in Palm Beach regardless, and note that he didn’t do all that well anyway. Just because their is a hint of evidence does not in itself indicate cause and effect. What is more troubling is the pattern of irregularities in both places which tends to lead one to this conclusion, but these individual cases could easily be harmless, but indicative of other problems. I was warning against Partisan politics. When you let somebody else do your thinking for you, you’ve done yourself a great disservice.

Uh huh. And since Ted Kennedy keeps getting elected in Mass, he must be cheating. The same goes for Dick Gephart, Tom Daschle, and a horde of other Democrat strongmen. Has it occurred to you that maybe most people in the country just prefer electing Republicans, because they like their principles (such as they differ from Democrats…)?

So you don’t believe politics is a dirty game? Isn’t that a little naive. By this token you probably would’ve voted for Carter and Gore as they were both extremely principled. Note that on principles alone Gore was more so than Bush. If you accept that politics is a dirty game then it goes w/o saying that to win someone must break/bend their conscience in some ways, does it not. In this way I assume that both parties in order to be successful must at some level do wrong things to get elected. However, we chose to believe the politicans WE back are not crooked, despite acknowledging the general truth that politicans are crooks. It cannot work both ways that politicans are bad, but a certain sect is immune to that general pressure. I would argue it is this naivity that not only lead Nixon to get away with Watergate for a while, but to also convince himself that he could. For example, Nixon seeing that JFK cheated him in Chicago in 1960 therfore concluded that it was okay to break the rules sometimes, or even so long as you are not caught.

UHm, the Democrats were recounting the ballots in Florida, not the Republicans. Just to clear that up a bit.

And yes, finding ballot boxes in the bottom of the river when Illinois State Law dictates they be archived for 14 years does smack of the Daley Political Machine cheating as usual.

And yes, both sides may be accused of cheating, but it does seem that the Democrats have a tendancy to be less able to conceal their cheating. I don’t know if it’s because the cheaters are less intelligent or the investigators more intelligent.

As for Illinois, other then Reagan and when a Daley wasn’t mayor of Chicago, I don’t think the state’s voted for a federally elected republican. Sorry, I did forget Peter Fitzgerald, but then again, it’s been rumored that the reason he isn’t running again is because Daley’s put a contract out on his family if he does. Obviously, no one will say, but the rumor persists. And let’s not forget about Mr. Ryan (Geri’s ex-husband, not the old Govenor) who’s only crime was wanting to have sex with his wife, but the Daley administration perverted it and him and forced him to step down giving us a choice between two democrats for office instead of a republican and a democrate

And let’s talk Govenor’s office. Liscence for Bribes scandel, there’s so many leads pointing right at the Mayor’s office you have to be a blind mouse in a maze to miss it. But the Govenor is the one who got in trouble.

Then there’s the trucking scam where Daley gave no-bid contract awards to his family, paid them on time, but they didn’t go to work or complete the contract.

And my favorite! FAA tells him he can’t expand O’Hare because he has three airports. So over night, he violates another city’s sovereign rights and bull dozes their airport! (Mig’s Field.) Claim’s he wants to build a park, but they havn’t so much as planted a blade of grass in over 3 years!

Daley’s friggin above the law. I’ll wager that if he told Pres. Bush to stop running for office, his administration would seriously consider it. Of course, Daley could have the Pres. killed and not even end up with an eggshell on his suit!

Why dont you ever hear of this guy?! :-?

Hear of who? Mayor Richard Daley?

He’s a local fish, he’s just so connected to the mob that I think he shares a certain male anatomy part with them as well as their genes and their business practices.

And yes, both sides may be accused of cheating, but it does seem that the Democrats have a tendancy to be less able to conceal their cheating. I don’t know if it’s because the cheaters are less intelligent or the investigators more intelligent.

No that isn’t true, remember Watergate, Iran Contra. It’s just that when republicans get caught as per recently they have this tendency to immediately resign just so that there remains some shadow of doubt to their guilt. Remember that Livingston guy.

And yes, finding ballot boxes in the bottom of the river when Illinois State Law dictates they be archived for 14 years does smack of the Daley Political Machine cheating as usual.

Yes but there were likewise valid criticisms of the republican electoral machinery in Florida, and especially as to why the ballots were made to be confusing. Shouldn’t they be as easy to understand as possible.

As for Illinois, other then Reagan and when a Daley wasn’t mayor of Chicago, I don’t think the state’s voted for a federally elected republican.

Well there was that guy named Lincoln.

And let’s not forget about Mr. Ryan (Geri’s ex-husband, not the old Govenor) who’s only crime was wanting to have sex with his wife, but the Daley administration perverted it and him and forced him to step down giving us a choice between two democrats for office instead of a republican and a democrate

Well but this wasn’t all daley’s fault. The republicans find themselves in a precarious position in that they hold ‘familiy values’ and morality to be their exclusive domain. As such when they get caught in compromising situations they have such little defense that they cannot even contest it as was the case with Ryan. Now the solution is to not beat people over the head with these issues, but since that is all that has worked for them that isn’t going to happen.

Daley’s friggin above the law. I’ll wager that if he told Pres. Bush to stop running for office, his administration would seriously consider it. Of course, Daley could have the Pres. killed and not even end up with an eggshell on his suit!

But all the issues at the core of these daley scandals are similarly levied against Bush. Except one controls the fate of only one state and the other the entire world. Which is more dangerous I would ask.

This is the result of the politics in the US today. Bush could run a horrible 2nd term, cause a depression, start WWII and still the Plains and South would vote the next Republican in. This kind of self serving brand of democracy will not last.

Lincoln was before my original mandate of Since WWII.

Mr. Ryan’s only impropriety was wanting to have Sex with his Wife. He just didn’t want to reveal that they attended social gatherings of an adult nature. But he didnt want to have sex with other people or let her do the same. When she said no, he dropped it.

Bush did not personally order the destruction of ballot boxes. IF anyone did that, it would probably be Cheney. I don’t think Bush has a wicked bone in his body, he may or may not be foolish and brash, but I don’t think he has the intention of harming the US Gov’t or it’s citizens.

Daley on the other hand, would burn the flesh off his own screaming mother if it meant he could get 4 more years in office.

Smith, if you get caught in a scandal, the proper thing to do is resign, or you could be like our beloved Bill, and stay in office.

I think the point would be to just NOT engage in a scandle…or is that too simplistic for the Dems and Reps to do???

Go Nader! (hey, I view it like this, if you are voting for the lesser of two evils, you are still voting for evil, right? Why not throw your vote on a 3rd party and vote against ALL evil!)

because in general, third parties are extensions of special interest groups. they tend to be the extremes on both sides. id prefer a kerry to any of the third parties ive encountered, even though i hate kerry

You missed the point, Janus. I wasn’t voting FOR Nader, I was voting AGAINST John and George!

No way Nader’d win, even if he was hte only candidate on the ballet.

I don’t know if this applies in the US or not, but in a previous federal election, i felt that:

1. the Liberal candidate (incumbant) was out of touch with his riding,
2. the Progressive Conservatives were not ready to lead the country and needed to ontinue to be punished for their misdeeds (also they were inappropriate for the riding)
3. i will NEVER vote for the New Democratic Party (far too sociallistic).

so i destroyed my ballot thereby sending a very small signal that i thought everyone sucked.

Unfortunatly, I think, that the only way to vote against a candidate in the states is to vote for another candidate. However, you may write your own name in for your vote, if you so choose.

I used to do that on certain elections, but with the fiasco in Florida where the Dems were throwing out votes left and right because of in-complete punches, I’ve grown wary of doing this - and choose to just vote 3rd party and hedge my bets that 90% of the nation isn’t doing the same thing!

Jennifer,
Well I agree. Not willing this time. Too much dangerous stuff going on to make my vote a statement for a 3rd party. The 2 party system has caused us no end of trouble. Why we would get to the place we where in four years ago where neither candidate was good. Ugh. America is huge. I find it hard to believe that Gore and W represent the best we had to offer. Kerry? He seems compotent. Great? Not yet. We can hope.

i maintain, the two term limit should not exist. if the people will it, than in a democracy, it should be done. bill clinton would still be in office if there were no limit, of this i am sure.

Bush did not personally order the destruction of ballot boxes. IF anyone did that, it would probably be Cheney. I don’t think Bush has a wicked bone in his body, he may or may not be foolish and brash, but I don’t think he has the intention of harming the US Gov’t or it’s citizens.

Yes so b/c daley is someone you don’t like he must personally have a hand in this, but when its Bush he doesn’t. I would argue a better case could be made against Bush in Florida b/c his bro is gov there. Daley could always blame a ‘bad egg’ aid. However, in neither instances is this a valid excuse, and really just to absolve the guilty among those who would support them.

Smith, if you get caught in a scandal, the proper thing to do is resign, or you could be like our beloved Bill, and stay in office.

Then why don’t the republicans do this? Note that they only resign when its a sexual scandal b/c they have to. If you are the moral authority and get caught doing something immoral then you have no choice, and in fact to stay in would only damage yourself and your advocates more.

Mr. Ryan’s only impropriety was wanting to have Sex with his Wife. He just didn’t want to reveal that they attended social gatherings of an adult nature. But he didnt want to have sex with other people or let her do the same. When she said no, he dropped it.

No that’s a very simplistic interpretation. What I hear was he wanted to ‘swing’ and she didn’t. Of course he being the moral authority and her the corrupt hollywood neophite this could only be spun so much thereby causing the resignation.

Daley on the other hand, would burn the flesh off his own screaming mother if it meant he could get 4 more years in office.

And bush would probably be willing to kill or have killed another 1000 Americans. What happened to compassionate conservativism, or his ‘love’ of Americans. Oh wait he never said he loved Americans only America. So I guess he was being compassionate by giving those 1000 a quick death.

I think the point would be to just NOT engage in a scandle…or is that too simplistic for the Dems and Reps to do???

Go Nader! (hey, I view it like this, if you are voting for the lesser of two evils, you are still voting for evil, right? Why not throw your vote on a 3rd party and vote against ALL evil!)

Well there are two problems here. One is that the judgement of what is scandal is usually made by the opposition party and therefore incredibly biased, and two the most virtuous presidents have been the worst ie Hoover, Carter, and perphaps even LBJ. In recent years there have emerged journals from Lincolns earlier years involving some of his sexual escapades in Springfield as a young attorney/congressman, and were authored not by himself, but by his friends and townspeople.