"I disagree communism gets rid of the will to work. Did Edgar Allen Poe stop producing literature when he was poor (some say his best works came when he hit rock bottom)? Did Pablo Picasso magically stop painting when his early paintings didn’t sell? Did William Shakespeare suddenly stop writing plays because he had frequent finical troubles? "
Yes, but don’t teachers not work very hard in many instances because they have a guarenteed paycheck from the state? Yes. Do public servants work very hard? They are among the laziest! I worked in a town library and saw how lazy they are. Since they are provided a guarenteed paycheck and amount, they don’t work very hard. Beaurcracies are already so inefficients, how could you trust one to provide everything for us?
“Again, why must we look out for ourselves when everybody is provided for?”
Because people want mroe than the essentials. People want more than others. You can’t make people fully provided for…like a spoiled child, the more a person has the more they want. That desire keeps greed and selfishness out there. People will always look out for themselves, becuase people care more about themself.
"First, I like to ask what work those illegal immigrants do. Second, why must they work their asses hard and long even to make a few bucks more than minimum wage? Should life revolve upon a constant influx of work (chances are those workers produce commodities not necessities)? Chances are they are been paid for their ability to work, not the work they do. People will still work even if they aren’t paid for their job. "
Mowing lawns, pumping gas, doing building at the town park…They work their asses off because they get rewarded after years of hard work, like the Turkish immigrants who worked for my dad, or the israeli immigrants who my dad knows, or the arab immigrants that he teaches today!
Now you start going off in a different tangent…and the answer is people will work less hard if they get paid equal to everyone else or if their is no chance to. Look at state jobs, it is that simple.
“Let’s take a look at cooperative working to describe the work methods that created a free operating system known as Linux. People from all over the world worked to create a powerful commercial quality product. People worked for nothing and the product is distributed free. Was money exchanged ? Well, one of the people involved most heavily was using very outdated equipment and a fund was set up so he could buy a less antiquated PC. So there you have it: from each according to his ability, to each according to his need. A successful implementation in miniature of the communist method of production. What made this possible ? A very powerful factor here was the internet itself. People coordinated the project by advertising their abilities and needs to one another on the net and spontaneously forming small temporary “production units”.”
The world isn’t linux. I could say “well a communes work, so communism must work.” that is a small example and red hat and other companies make money off linux. What is next, a group project in 5th grade is communism too?
“Actually communism is a very long-term goal and system if implemented correctly.”
I debate that is it next to impossible to do so…just as impossible than a perfect capitalist society.
"Just as the world has evolved from feudalism to capitalism, so it will evolve from capitalism, first through socialism (in which the working class is dominant), then eventually to communism (in which there are no classes). "
I’m afraid that it will because people are misguided…i need to live another 50 years to rate the success of modern social democracies to say for sure if “capitalism or communism will win…” I’m guessing capitalism.
"My job is to hasten that evolution. Also you are assuming that communes will collapse after the first generation. Not so. North American Indian, the Maories, Australian aborigines, and other tribes have existed many generations using a crude form of communism. "
Crude form of communism? Not exactly communism is it? If my dad share s tools in the shop, is that communism? No. Its sharing. I have read the book “We” and it says the same thing. that communism is part of evolution. Indeed it is, but man is not the being for it.
“You are realizing the own folly of capitalism. Capitalistic countries like USA try to get out of the crisis of overproduction by selling goods on foreign markets.”
Yet we have a trade deficit…makes you think eh?
“However, all the other capitalists are trying to do the same and the world is only so big. Also in the very act of exporting to foreign markets the capitalists develop the productive forces in these countries (eg. Indonesia, China).”
Communism failed in North Korea, China, Vietnam, and Cuba. Though they make considerbly less money than America, they make more with capitalism. Haven’t you noticed that they are only “communist” in name?
"How much more can the world withstand before it becomes over saturated? "
There are always new products and people keep eating. Demand never dissappears.
“This is a reason why most of the world must survive on less than 1000 calories per day, foreign countries being taken advantaged by countries such as the USA and having to exploit their own population in order to survive.”
This indeed happens, but in a world where only parts of it are communist, they fail. How realistically will the whole world become communist…and when it magically does, how long can it endure that way? Not very long at all.
"However in the communist society you are assuming everybody slacking off. "
You bet your ass :)
“People can learn to be motivated by working for the common good.”
No…people want some sort of promise of betterment. Most people won’t.
“If we help each other, we both gain. Capitalism encourages us to fight against each other for crumbs, while the very few stuff themselves on the pie.”
Yes and Earth Communism says “everyone share the crumbs, because we couldn’t make enough pie!” What if ?I am a communist farmer, and i keep some more of my crop and don’t share it? That can very easily happen…until you eliminate that greed, communism can only damn us.
"Be careful not to mix communism with socialism. China, USSR, Vietnam, North Korea, Laos and Cuba were all socialist states. So far no communist nation has existed. "
Very true, though “communist” repubic is always fit in there in name. But doesn’t that show you how unrealistic a true communistic society is? The best means of comparing are farm communes and of the sort…wow, they lasted real long…
“Now this deserves a lot of explaining (many, many pages) before you can have an in depth look at a communist system. However, if you’re looking for the answer, ask Mini (he is better at theorizing than I am). I would give you the Marxist resolution, but for a better understanding, read the Manifesto Itself.”
That answers a whole lot ;) I don’t think Marx came up with an idea of sectional communsit societies. I believe he wanted a world wide revolution (in industrial nations at the least.) If half of the worlds industrialized societies became communist, i bet the capitalist ones would over power them. So it would have to be world wde, and again, how would that last???
“If by human work, you mean busy work, we have been doing that for generations and with animals made of flesh.”
And was it right?
“Suddenly, we must ban the enslavement of animals for plowing simply because they do human work?”
They are not very smart…a computer that can take place of ALL human work would be. As long as computers exist not smart enough to do EVERYTHING, man must do work…and that would be a hell of a lot of computers to fix.
"Likewise, we are already enslaving computers. I leave my computer on for most of the day and use it to type documents, surf the web, listen to music, and other task. "
Your computer is not as advanced as the computer in your skull.
“What would you like, off time and paid vacations for my computer to compensate for this unjust enslavement?”
Maybe French computers…
“Computers aren’t smart, they can’t think on their own.”
For now. A computer that can fully replace a man would be. We already invented computers that run of protein strands…it is just a matter of time until we can emulate a brain.
“What they do, however, is reduce the amount of work through automated task. Granted we need technicians and there are those willing to fill the gap because they enjoy this job. Are saying that all computer technicians are only in it for the money?”
That and their love of their work…that’s why i would want to be a history teacher.
“Another problem with capitalism – increased expectations. After spending some of the surplus value from exported good, capitalist are forced to re-invest the surplus back into production (ie more factories and machines). If capitalist does not invest, then he will be out-competed by other more efficient capitalists who do. If a machine cuts work by 20%, chances are he will cut the number of workers (creating unemployment) or (and probably the higher chance when things are “going good”) he will capitalize on his investment by producing more goods (now 120% from original production standards) and in turn export them to more markets so he makes enough to buy even MORE machines. Eventually this leads to overproduction, a major problem with capitalism. Guess who losses their job when the resulting slump in productivity comes? The man or the machine?”
By that theory factories will be producing machines, selling them to more machines. The human market will continue to exist.
“But by mentioning sewing machine, steam engine, and cotton gin, those are mainly used in commercial and industrial industries. How about the dishwasher? The Refrigerator? The laundry machine and dryer? I would hope that would reduce the amount of work compared with more “primitive,” conventional methods.”
They do, yet we find ourselves having “busy”: days, correct? Yet a lot of people commit suicide because they are unhappy. Why couldn’t we be happier with t he simpler things in life?
"No, but it will help to reduce it. "
People still work 14 hours a day…what computer reduces their work? Now we can do a lot more work in our time, but in return, there is more work to be done…unless everybody decided “you know what? Who needs advances in technology and such, I am happy the way I am.” Thats isn’t going to happen.
"Newsflash! Suddenly Communist controlled machines become emotional! Read all about it! "
Well capitalist could control them too, but at that point they would probably become customers.
