Prime Factor

“Can we really still use natural laws to reference to the most domesticated animal - us!”

Ants are very domesticated, but evolution wise, they won’t stop improving. Also, the gender split has remained constant for most of time.

“So what’s this Jedi religion in the UK all about? Does it follow George Lucas’ story/dogma or is it different?”

All I know is that it’s based on the movie Star Wars (duh). It probably centers on how to become a Jedi Knight and become “one with the force” and to resist the “Dark side.” Other than that, I wouldn’t even know if they worshiped Yoda. :P

“You brainwashed her!”

Wha… what the hell!? More like trying to brainwash me! :wink:

TG Moses VI - out of stupid curiousity, I did a search on “Jedi Religion”. Apparently THERE ARE people out there claiming to be practicioners of the “force”! In fact, there are groups in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand who are trying to get their groups recognized by their governments as organized religion! This may be part of a rebellious online prank, but it’s happening all the same! I guess the Australian government is warning people with fines for falsifying the census when it comes around. Some groups seem to seperate their “dogma” from the Star Wars movies!?!?! Others seem to embrace George Lucas for showing them the “light”!!!

My friends, I try to be open minded and defend other’s beliefs. But this is too much even for me. What a bunch of wacko’s!!! I’ll admit I’m a big fan of Star Wars. You’ve gotta give George Lucas the credit. The guy takes a chance on a movie idea almost 30 years ago, turns it into top grossing films of all time, merchandising galore, and now spin-off religious groups! What’s next people praying at his feet? Lucas for Emperor? It’s not hard to see why people follow their Jim Jones’ and David Koresh’s (spelling?)!!!

Well, thanks for passing along the info. I know it’s more than some online groupies trying to start some ruckus, as they been around for quite some time. But like you said, I’m not sure if the government has officially recognized them, though UK Gov might’ve last time I heard on the news about a year ago. I even think that some live in huts similar to that of Uncle Ben (Obi-Wan) in Scotland! :roll:

I really admire George Lucas, too. He makes the movies for himself (well, his son also! :wink:), not for some box office proceeds or merchandising (though set records in both). He’s also a very political minded person. A liberal (growing up in San Fran), though he often talks about how all people eventually hand over their power to a powerful ruler. And as you can see in Ep. 1-6 (and 7-9, though he probably won’t film them), it reflects that. If George did run for president, I would certainly vote for him! 8)

@FinsterniS:

odd . . . i seem to remember me elucidating the biochemical pathway of how the sun’s energy provides a system of order.

What is odd ? That is what i said…

it’s odd b/c i’m a creationist.

@TG:

@cystic:

Hope this answers your question.

Koo…

While I wait for my other question to be answered, how does evolutionist explain metamorphosis? Ex. How can evolution explain the metamorphosis of the butterfly? Once the caterpillar evolves into the “mass of jelly” (out of which the butterfly comes), wouldn’t it appear to be “stuck?”

CC, also mentioned DNA and cell replication. Here’s another question: The continued existence (the reproduction) of a cell requires both DNA (the “plan”) and RNA (the “copy mechanism”). How reasonable is it to believe that these two co-dependent necessities came into existence by chance at exactly the same time?

too tipsy to deal with metamorphosis.
DNA and RNA are not that different - just one base (uracil vs. thymine). RNA is considered by some molecular biologists to be one of the first biological molecules due to its facility as a protein, as well as a genetic information carrier. DNA may have evolved due to its efficiency at condensing, replicating, or acting as a template (i don’t really know). Anyway, to answer your question, RNA may have come before DNA, the two are not different enough that they may have been the same molecule-type at one point. In fact, many viruses use RNA as their primary genetic information molecule. I hope this makes sense. The Alexander Keiths beer is really smooth . . . . :D

[quote="cystic cryptPeople try to explain genetic transformation by “adaptive mechanisms”. This is bs. You do not get additional genetic material simply by being in a harsh environment. Something else has to happen.
Hope this answers your question. It might appear biased coming from a “intelligent design” guy tho’ . . . .

It does not appear biased, as you have not mentioned any need for an intelligent desing, you just told how it works. I think that was really good.

One for TG,
how do you explain the metamorphosis?
God turns each caterpillar into jelly and forms a butterlfy out of it :)?

For the Jedi Religion:
I think it’s funny, total stupid, and shows how influental such fiction can become.
More interestingly, the Jedi would be the second totally artifical “religion” of the last 100 years.
Remember, there was this second class sci-fi writer, who once said “to become really rich, you have to found a religion”. Which he later did, and called it “Scientology” (which his first “clean” later committing suicide … what a joke, but what a dangerously powerful, greedy and ruthless joke)

@FinsterniS:

it’s odd b/c i’m a creationist.

Wow. that is fanatism…

And you said once the bible was not a scientific text ?

not scientific. Historical, anthropologically significant, literary, and most importantly a guide through spiritually muddy waters.
i am a creationist. maybe not a young-earth creationist - although it is possible to defend that at some level, i don’t really buy into it. but yes. i’m an intelligent design/creationist.
Fanatism . . . i don’t get it. I don’t even know what that word means. Is it like Fanaticism? And if so that’s a pretty subjective comment. Maybe in this context it’s good to be fanatical? And if i’m fanatical about this, then are you not also fanatical? I mean, you’ve mentioned hatred vs. certain religious types much more than i’ve mentioned hatred vs. . . anyone.

@cystic:

not scientific. Historical, anthropologically significant, literary, and most importantly a guide through spiritually muddy waters.

The guide for those who seek guidance, and even then not the only possible guide.
Otherwise, i think we can agree, except for that we should not see the bible as historical in the sense thaat it tells us the history directly, but as a possible source for historians to look at the usual lifestyle at that time etc etc.

“For the Jedi Religion:
I think it’s funny, total stupid, and shows how influental such fiction can become.”

I don’t know. If that religion teaches them to be moral, upright citizens (as Samuel L Jackson, said, “Keepers of the Peace”), to resist the dark side (greed, hate, violence) and embrace the light side (helping others), then I find it much less “stupid.” Now if they ran around worshipping Yoda, that would be a much different story entirely. :wink:

”how do you explain the metamorphosis?”

Forget God. He/she/it doesn’t have the slightest clue of what’s going on, unless he does this for the fun of it. But as an evolutionist, not all insects go through the Complete Metamorphosis cycle of life. Cockroaches, very ancient insects by fossil standards, hatch as a small version of their adult selves and just grow larger. Other insects that appear later in the fossil record go through Incomplete Metamorphosis , consisting of egg, nymph , adult. Apparently at some point some insect eggs began hatching before they were fully formed. Cockroaches stayed on in their way, having no competitive pressures to change, but for other insects a nymph stage aided their survival and it was added to their life cycle. Eventually at some point a nymph formed a cocoon around itself before maturing to the adult stage. This enabled it to survive a winter and emerge full grown. So, by a long step by step process, the Complete Metamorphosis cycle did arise. This is not absolutely proven. Not every step is preserved in stone and amber insect bodies do not readily fossilize (a big problem with evolution is fossil records). But it does show that life cycle evolution is not impossible, and this is a working hypothesis to compare findings with. By looking for remains of transitional forms, and by making genetic comparisons that show the distance between insect forms, and by examining insect growth processes that have continued today, the development of butterfly growth can be traced.

“People try to explain genetic transformation by “adaptive mechanisms”. This is bs. You do not get additional genetic material simply by being in a harsh environment. Something else has to happen.”

Okay, here’s another question. Evolution is small changes over a lengthy amount of time. We know from everyday experience that an item is not generally useful until it is complete, whether be it a car, gun, or computer program. Why would natural selection start to make an eye, or an ear, or a wing (or anything else) when this item would not benefit the animal until it was completed?

@TG:

“For the Jedi Religion:
I think it’s funny, total stupid, and shows how influental such fiction can become.”
I don’t know. If that religion teaches them to be moral, upright citizens (as Samuel L Jackson, said, “Keepers of the Peace”), to resist the dark side (greed, hate, violence) and embrace the light side (helping others), then I find it much less “stupid.” Now if they ran around worshipping Yoda, that would be a much different story entirely. :wink:

True, but it’s funny that a movie can have such an impact (especially with this total black-white painting of good and evil in it:) …. btw, i love it!)

“People try to explain genetic transformation by “adaptive mechanisms”. This is bs. You do not get additional genetic material simply by being in a harsh environment. Something else has to happen.”

Okay, here’s another question. Evolution is small changes over a lengthy amount of time. We know from everyday experience that an item is not generally useful until it is complete, whether be it a car, gun, or computer program. Why would natural selection start to make an eye, or an ear, or a wing (or anything else) when this item would not benefit the animal until it was completed?

Actually, the first eye was not much more than a layer of photosensitive cells. the improvements came later. The first wings were for gliding only, the improvement came later.
Just like the first planes were pretty crappy compared to todays planes, or cars or computers.
But even a small use is a use from which the animal benefits and therefore can be “fitter”

True, but it’s funny that a movie can have such an impact (especially with this total black-white painting of good and evil in it:) …. btw, i love it!)

Well there are many reasons why Star Wars is so popular. It is the first and closest movie(s) set on an epic scale in the late 20th Century. Its adventures were chronicled in a “galaxy, far, far away” –a Space Opera of good versus evil. Until then, most movies were mainly one-shots, there was no Casablanca Part II or Gone with the Wind II. Many people say Star Wars is just good because of the technology (ahead of its time), though I think it’s so much more. If you ask me, religions have been founded on a lot less…

“The first wings were for gliding only, the improvement came later.”

True, but what about when wings first start to develop? IE just a protruding fragment out of the body incapable of flight, which will (after many generations) allow that species to glide. Until then, it would serve no purpose whatsoever.

@TG:

“The first wings were for gliding only, the improvement came later.”

True, but what about when wings first start to develop? IE just a protruding fragment out of the body incapable of flight, which will (after many generations) allow that species to glide. Until then, it would serve no purpose whatsoever.

Wings are forelegs, arms. All that started to develop was something to give these arms some more area, so they can be used for gliding. One of the first gliding dinosaurs (which actually had feathers) could glide only for about 10-20m.
So, there is no portuding fragment, but an addtion to something existing (first), which changes the use of that something more and more over the time as the addition develops.
AFAIR You still can see the fingers in the bone structure of a chicken :). But they (now being useless) degenerated to not much more than “knobs”.
Or have a look at bats: there the wing is actually the arm and hand, with skin between the bones of the arm and fingers.

@FinsterniS:

i am a creationist. maybe not a young-earth creationist - although it is possible to defend that at some level, i don't really buy into it. but yes. i'm an intelligent design/creationist. 

How can you defend New Earth Creationist ? What, the earth is 10 000 year old, all the current species lived with dinosaur some time ago ?… But it take less than 2 000 and they completly disappear ? the flood probably. The carbone 14 test is working on a formula that say things are older than we really are, but it seem it only work for dinosaur, because between X and Y% of c14 remaining, there is only dinosaur and some mammal ?

Fanatism . . . i don't get it. I don't even know what that word means. Is it like Fanaticism? And if so that's a pretty subjective comment. Maybe in this context it's good to be fanatical? And if i'm fanatical about this, then are you not also fanatical? I mean, you've mentioned hatred vs. certain religious types much more than i've mentioned hatred vs. . . anyone.

Sure it is subjective, because you think you are right. What i mean by fanatic is that you take everything the bible said even if this is incohrent with current theory. Also that is a little hard for me to be fanatical; i rarely said in what i believe, you only know in what i do not believe. Sure i feel anger vs some religion, not when they are personnal, but when they take space in politic & science - look at the thermodynamic argument, the earth’s atmosphere argument, the logical argument; these are only creating confusion. If you do not have any formation (knowledge) in physics/chimy/mathematic you will probably get conned… that is not science byt demagogy ! you see i do not fear the word anger. Will you say you are tolerent vis-à-vis Québec ?

i won’t defend young-earth creationism here. I don’t really buy into it, and it has been a contention with between my father and i for some time.
Also the bible is not incoherent with current theory. I’ve always maintained that if there appears to be a conflict between the bible then there is information that we are missing. Either that or we are taking something literally which was intended metaphorically and vice versa. I maintain that for scientific literature as well (mind you, Nature or Science has an edge over “the Medical Post” - which is kind of a rag).
I’ve a B.Sc. in Chemistry, and nearly minored in Mathematics (too boring), so i’m not likely to get conned too easily.
And i am tolerant with regards to Quebec. In fact, i hope the best for Quebec. I hope that federalist Quebeccers may retain their Canadian citizenship and the rights and priveleges they deserve, and that separatists would leave once and for all - whether by separation of their region, or some other means - thereby fulfilling their dreams and destiny.
I also do not have a problem introducing spiritual concepts into the realms of science etc. If we do not consider the possibility of a place for them, then we may be missing the boat. Is it not scientific to consider possibilities outside of measurable realities? Theoretical physics at one time suggested that this was not a bad idea. Why not metaphysics?

@F_alk:

Wings are forelegs, arms. All that started to develop was something to give these arms some more area, so they can be used for gliding. One of the first gliding dinosaurs (which actually had feathers) could glide only for about 10-20m.
So, there is no portuding fragment, but an addtion to something existing (first), which changes the use of that something more and more over the time as the addition develops.
AFAIR You still can see the fingers in the bone structure of a chicken :). But they (now being useless) degenerated to not much more than “knobs”.
Or have a look at bats: there the wing is actually the arm and hand, with skin between the bones of the arm and fingers.

Understandable of course.

Okay, lets see if you can answer this,

Evolution requires the transition from one kind to another to be gradual. And don’t forget that “natural selection” is supposed to retain those individuals, which have developed an advantage of some sort. How could an animal intermediate between one kind and another even survive, when it would not be well suited to either its old environment or its new environment?

@F_alk:

Actually, the first eye was not much more than a layer of photosensitive cells.

Certainly a “light-sensitive spot” is better than no vision at all. But why would such a spot even develop? And even if it did develop, to believe that mutations of such a spot eventually brought about the tremendous complexities of the human eye is hard to take.

@TG:

@F_alk:

Wings are forelegs, arms. All that started to develop was something to give these arms some more area, so they can be used for gliding. One of the first gliding dinosaurs (which actually had feathers) could glide only for about 10-20m.
So, there is no portuding fragment, but an addtion to something existing (first), which changes the use of that something more and more over the time as the addition develops.
AFAIR You still can see the fingers in the bone structure of a chicken :). But they (now being useless) degenerated to not much more than “knobs”.
Or have a look at bats: there the wing is actually the arm and hand, with skin between the bones of the arm and fingers.

Understandable of course.

Okay, lets see if you can answer this,

Evolution requires the transition from one kind to another to be gradual. And don’t forget that “natural selection” is supposed to retain those individuals, which have developed an advantage of some sort. How could an animal intermediate between one kind and another even survive, when it would not be well suited to either its old environment or its new environment?

@F_alk:

Actually, the first eye was not much more than a layer of photosensitive cells.

Certainly a “light-sensitive spot” is better than no vision at all. But why would such a spot even develop? And even if it did develop, to believe that mutations of such a spot eventually brought about the tremendous complexities of the human eye is hard to take.

This is tied in to one argument vs. evolution discussed in the book “Darwin’s Black Box” - i referred to this as irreducible complexity in an earlier post (in a galaxy far far away). It is quite problematic reducing many physiological systems as there is no reason for an eye to spontaneously develop in its current form. Or for photosenstive cells to be adapted in the way that it has. This is one area where the “blind watch-maker” hypothesis requires even more faith than religion.

WRT Jedi religion - i understand that stating your religion as “Jedi” on a census in Australia is against the law and punishable (by fine, i suppose). I don’t know if i mentioned it here, but i was thinking of generating that religion here, using the “temple” as a tax haven to live in and conduct “Jedi Outcast” playing and “Star Wars:***” watching type rituals. Who knows what we could get the taxman to foot the bill for . . . :)
The funny thing is in Canada we could get away with it - especially if Sheila Copps (heritage minister) takes a run for leadership of the Liberal party.

• oh yeah, in case you couldn’t tell, this is a lazy crypt.