Iraq, again

Stil, it would have been a valid distraction, rather than bombing aspirin factories, schools and hospitals.
Oh, wait! Distraction…war… Democrats…I get it now.

Now that you’ve had time to read and cogitate upon my post of Mar. 7, 2003 …

What do you not understand about 1441 and the fact that Iraq is in violation of these multiple resolutions?

As well as Russia, France and China(and possibly Germany) being in violation of resolution 1441, #10.

@Xi:

What do you not understand about 1441 and the fact that Iraq is in violation of these multiple resolutions?

Did you have a look at Resolution 687? The one that the US are continually breaking, just about a week ago with the marines cutting open the border fences between Iraq and Kuwait……

Note: i am not saying that the Iraq has not breached this resulotion either, i am aware they did.

As well as Russia, France and China(and possibly Germany) being in violation of resolution 1441, #10.

Shot in your foot?
It was the US agancies who didn’t hand over all their “proof” to UNMOVIC. It’s the US government who claims that UNMOVIC is futile, and that is not the “full support” that they have to be given. To me, it seems the one who want more time and more material support for UNMOVIC is not the USA.
Xi…. i think that did no good to your cause.

facts:
from resolution 1441
" 10. Requests all Member States to give full support to UNMOVIC and the IAEA in the discharge of their mandates, including by providing any information related to prohibited programmes or other aspects of their mandates, including on Iraqi attempts since 1998 to acquire prohibited items, and by recommending sites to be inspected, persons to be interviewed, conditions of such interviews, and data to be collected, the results of which shall be reported to the Council by UNMOVIC and the IAEA;"

from Resolution 687
"Affirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of Kuwait and Iraq, "
"4. Decides to guarantee the inviolability of the above-mentioned (Iraq-Kuwait) international boundary and to take as appropriate all necessary measures to that end in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations; "

Sorry for the late answer, SUD

@Soon_U_Die:

1. If the US obtains 9 votes for a 2nd security council resolution, and France, Russia or China veto the resolution…will you condemn (France, Russia, China) for failing to agree to a multilateral agreement?

Yes, but i would accept the right to veto, just as i would accept it from the UK or US. I don’t have to agree with the compromise found or with the compromise being “vetoed”, still i would accept it. The UN is the final authority on this planet when it comes to international issues, and i fully support that.

2. If Russia does not ratify Kyoto, it is quite possible that Kyoto will collapse, as the threshold of 55% of emissions will not be reached. Will you condemn Russia then? Could we state that multilateralism has then failed? Or would multilateralism have succeeded? Perhaps faiure of the accords is actually success, since we seem to agree that the accords themselves are crap (at least in substance)?

If Russia doesn’t ratify, i would still expect the others to act “as if it was in effect”, just as you brought the example fo the US acting “as if” tehy had signed something.
I surely will put some blame on Russia, as on any other nation that refuses to ratify afer having their wishes met after the official negotiations. (This excludes the US to blamed to that reason).
We can say that multilateralism has failed, because in democratic systems not every notion put forward gets accepted in the end.
Multilateralism is similar to democracy between states, unilateralism is similar to dictatorship of one state over others.
And even if the the substance is crap, and the “failure in international relations” could happen to become a “success on the the issue” (which i strongly doubt!!)… i would still consider it a failure, as one of the problems that concerns all of mankind couldn’t be solved by all of mankind together, not even plans where laid out etc.

But, I wanted to let you know that I am going to be very busy in the next 10 days though

No worries.

I’m not so sure the US should have to accept a Veto by 1 member. If the US knew for sure that Iraq had to be pre-emptively hit and yet knew for sure that say France would veto an attack for purly cynical reasons she they just bend over and allow a perceived threat to become real?

I’m not saying this is the current situation, but what if? Let’s just assume this situation did exist? The US is going to war against Iraq. They are so sure that Iraq has WPM that their troops will all wear protection. Most likely, statistically, some will die due to heat exhaustion due to the added protection. Is this just a publicity stunt?

I say that after the dust settles, if the US administration was wrong that they should step down and face a war crimes trial. If they are that sure they should state this.

Does anybody think that those who want to support Saddam like the French would state that if they are wrong they will retire immediately and for ever from politics? I doubt it.

There are far far worse things than fighting a just war.

BB

@F_alk:

(1) Europe is not sub-tropical, therefore we have 4 distinct seasons as well.
(2) Canada is second to the US is per capita energy consumption.
(3) central heating? the central heating i know, or just a word for “well working heating in every room”? hopefully the second.
You are right, your weather conditions are more extreme, esp. in Canada. Not at all in Florida or southern California though. There the need for winter heating is quite reduced.
A question: Do you know how USies and Canadians build their houses? How much insulation in the walls? Double brick? brick at all? Wood? Aluminium? single/double/triple windows?
I guess at least many USies could save a lot of energy by building “smarter” houses.

I know that you did a lot of work in this post, but this one i had to take a stab at.
point (1) - 4 distinct seasons??? how often do temperatures range from -35 to +35? In Winnipeg nearly every year.
(2) yes. Absolutely. see point (1). I am amazed that Canada actually works. We barely have 30 million people spread over a 6500+ km country. We have a functioning train system, as well as ports, however it is not economical nor desired to take the train anywhere. For me to drive to Calgary (the nearest large city) would take me 14 hours straight. The train would take over 24 hours and cost me around 4-5 times as much.
And Canadian homes are built very intelligently with as much insulation as would be stuffed in the walls, usually with double windows. These windows are designed for the extreme temperatures. As for the other “specs”, i´m not sure, but i´ll tell you this. The only time i hear of a Winnipegger suffering from hypothermia, its because of a drinking binge followed by a head dive into a snowbank for 8 hours. In Portugal this is routine for old people at home!!! And the temperature here was around 40 degrees warmer than it was in Winnipeg. Really, Europeans have no idea of what it takes to survive in Canada. I am amazed that Canada works as well as it does, given the conditions.

I hear ya CC on the Canadian population density thing. Most from europe just don’t have any concept of driving your car at 130Kmph for an hour just to get to work. Of course if you live in a large metro city you can live without a car. For the same cost of living in an apartment in downtown big city Canada you often get a car and house in a rural area. The price is the commute to work. Unless you work from home :-)

It’s a 5 hour drive west to get to Quebec and about a 20 hour drive east to get to the next province Manitoba. Trains in Ontario are great as long as you live along the QEW corridor along lake Ontario or along the Montreal-Toronto-Windsor corridor. You can’t use what doesn’t exist.

The problem with Kyoto is that if everybody could use as much energy as the US/Canada does per citizen we’d all be in trouble. Then again, the south gets fried and Canada benefits…… Burn baby burn!

BB

Does anybody think that those who want to support Saddam like the French….

I wouldn’t say France is supporting Saddam, they want him disarmed just like everyone else. France just doesn’t agree with the U.S. and Britain on how that should be done.

France knows exactly how they want saddam disarmed. Over the next 10 years, with sanctions in place so everybody can blame the bad old americans for the sanctions. Since Saddam will be in power for 10 more years and be utterly gratefull for the French he will grant France even more lucrative contracts while continuing to support chaos against the US and Israelis. Since they aren’t paying a dime they have no problem with 1/4 of million Yanks and Brits sweating their nutts off while their family gets lonely and the French get fatter with lucrative blood money contracts with the devil himself……

BB

@cystic:

@CC:

point (1) - 4 distinct seasons??? how often do temperatures range from -35 to +35? In Winnipeg nearly every year.

Well, that’s a pretty harsh definition of “4 seasons”…. then besides Canada and Northern US probably noone has 4 distinct seasons.
But i admit, our seasonal changes are not such extreme.

We barely have 30 million people spread over a 6500+ km country. We have a functioning train system, as well as ports, however it is not economical nor desired to take the train anywhere. For me to drive to Calgary (the nearest large city) would take me 14 hours straight. The train would take over 24 hours and cost me around 4-5 times as much.

Well… but how are the “population density fluctuations”. An inspired guess of me would be that 90% of those 30 millions live on less than 10% of the area…
Those 10% people in the 90% area surely need cars/helicopters/whatever, but do the others truely need cars?
Just like BB said ". Of course if you live in a large metro city you can live without a car. " … but how many do?

Just a funny nice episode for you and BB, relating to BB’s “Most from europe just don’t have any concept of driving your car at 130Kmph for an hour just to get to work”. A Post Doc in Melbourne who visited Germany was utterly surprised when traffic on an Autobahn stopped. Just like that, for about one hour. All germans (it was summer) pulled out camping chairs and had kind of a picnic. The reason for this stop was not an accident or something. It was too much traffic, an overload.
So, i could reply “most of you have no concept of driving and standting your car in a traffic jam for an hour just to get to work”…
we don’t have that “concept” of distance, but we have the same concept of time :). And form my point of view, driving an hour is much more relaxing than driving half an hour and spending half an hour in a traffic jam (the usual way to get to work in germany if you have to “commute”).

As for weather extremes, winnipeg is noted for it’s winters, well, most of Canada is except for the Pacific Coast and the area around the great lakes where I am. These big fresh water ponds tend to keep the winters warmer (and more snow) and the summers cooler. We rarely hit -20 C in winter, usually it’s -10 to the low +30s in summer.

I’ve heard it gets so cold in winter in the western part of Canada that your car tires end up with a flat spot frozen into it where that part of the tire was in contact with the ground overnight.

How many folks in europe use a blockheater for their car? I’ve also heard that shopping malls in the west have electrical outlets so customers can plug their car’s block heaters in while shopping.

F_alk, we have huge traffic problems around Toronto. That 1 hour trip where you can drive 130KMPH for 80% of the trip is a tad bit longer when you are in stop and go traffic on the highway, it’s more like 2-3 hours. Many people just leave an hour early to avoid the stress and play cards at work until their shift starts. There are certain times you just don’t go on the 3 main links into Toronto (10 % of Canada lives in this city).

You’re right in that 90% of our people live in 5% of the land. The problem is that 5% is in a 100 KM strip North/South and about a 4,000 KM East-West along the border. Having a relatively round country is much better, you can do a grid of transportation links. We can’t, we have 1 big east-west corridor, 1 rail link and 1 highway link. Yeah of course there are smaller roads that cover a portion of the trip but in some stretches you can drive 130KMPH for hours and not see anything but wheat fields.

I must admit however, the europeans do know how to live life better. I spent 2 weeks there (Germany and Holland) on business. I never ever saw a drive through coffee shop. The idea of getting a coffee and not savouring it, not enjoying others company but rather driving your car to work coffee in hand is just not right! They take more time of work on vacation and vacation tends to come before work insofar as projects at work tend to be put on hold to allow the people to take vacations when they want rather then when the company wants. North America could learn much from that. He who dies richest still dies. He who dies with money didn’t enjoy life as much as he could have.

BB

Imagine you are playing Axis and Allies for the first time. Your playing Russia a friend of yours is playing Britain. He wants to build an IC in South Africa. You don’t think that’s a good idea and tell him so. He calls you a wimp and a weasle. You argue it might be better to build up an AC and transport Infantry to Europe. He is insulted and tells you, your not his friend anymore. You tell him, that you don’t want to offend him and you still consider him as your friend, but if he buys that IC the Axis will most probably win. He spits you in the face and declares war on you.

If I would think that a war against Iraq is the only way to bring democracy and peace to the Middle East, I would wholeheartly support Bush’s stance for war. But I don’t think so.

The first damage is allready done.

The Iraq situation was developing (and was being logistically planned) before North Korea even declared that it was restarting it’s nuke program.

What would you do if Bush set you on a list of three enemy countries and is just about to attack the first one?
Get a threat big enough to prevent him from attacking you as long as his busy with the first country.

Bush declared he is going to bring democracy to Iraq. But did he bring it to Afganistan? Karzai is not elected democraticly. And allthough he not a tyran, his effective rule is restricted to the area international forces are defending, that is, Kabul. More troops would be needed, French, German and American, to ensure Afganistance way to a democratic country. But nobody is willing to pay these costs and America prefers to attack the next country. By the way, in most parts of Afganistan, the Shria is still law.

The people in the Middle East are not likely to welcome the “Crusade against Evil”. The last Crusade they experienced was slaughter and opression. Bush’s “diplomacy” failed to convince his allies, how do you think he will convince his enemies?

The organication which did most for reducing world output of CO2 is th OPEC. Every single drop of oil produced will get burnt in the end. You can research alot about more efficient technologies to burn oil, if you burn more oil you produce more CO2. And this is exactly what the USA are going to do. They are just about to fight a war, which if everything goes according to plan, what I doubt, will destroy the OPEC, encrease the world production of oil and reduce its price.
I’m currently staying in Birmingham, Alabama and I notice the following. There’s hardly any public transportaion in an area of one million inhapitants. Ulm in Germany has 100,000 inhapitants and has a good net of busses. The gas is much cheaper than in Germany. All you can see are pickups and sport cars. Yes, you need air condition in the summer, but Germany is colder in the winter and I don’t need as much heating as I need here.

Meijing, you make some excellent points. From the sounds of it you have a view of the world different from somebody who grew up in the USA, forgive me if I assume wrong. As a Canadian I and my fellow compatriots see it half way I suspect.

The friend telling a friend about a difference of view is a good one. I’m not sure who spit on who, the US or France :-)

I don’t think war in Iraq is the only way to democracy in Mid East, but it’s the simple way to reduce variables in an uncertain world. Correct or wrong, when the war is over, there will be a net drop in the number of variables. Had this been done 2 years ago we’d be better able to face N. Korea.

N. Korea never stopped it’s weapons program, it merely shifted it from plutonium based to uranium based. The americans long suspected, finally confronted them and were proved correct.

I really wish intelligence was as good as some people think it is. If you suspect somebody might have a weapons research program you could be wrong in either way, they could have a passing interest or have several bombs.

The UN was in Iraq during the mid 90’s during a 4 year program inspecting and never knowing a bio-weapons program was in full swing.

When N. Korea fired a rocket over Japan it suprised everybody. Nobody thought there missle program was that advanced. In fact it was intended to launch a test satelite and failed. 2/3 of the rocket worked and it went past Japan, hmmmmmmmm how far can it go I wonder?

Perhaps it was counter-productive to list Iran and N. Korea, the whole axis of evil thing actually. I think it was a mistake to openly proclaim this.

Afganistan…. Here is a spin. Afganistan was about blood revenge. Afganistan is much different then Iraq. I suspect the US think they can make Iraq into a democracy in 10 years perhaps but not Afganistan in 40.

I think much more should be done in Afganistan, Canada will be leading the operation shortly, I hope we do as much as we can with our limited resources. I also think Canada should do more and so do all my friends, yet our government isn’t spending what it should.

They might not like this ‘crusade’, let’s up they tolerate it and let’s hope the west does a good job of rebuilding. Iraqis deserve a good life just as we all do.

I think N. America does a brutal job on fuel effeciency. The auto makers had/have too much power in this continent. It’s in their interest NOT to have public transit. We now reap the rewards… We use more fuel per person than any other nation on the planet. Don’t tell me you need more AC in florida then Iceland needs heating…

Since the US fuel is typically 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of fuel in Euroland it’s not a suprise that the balance settled where it did here. One strike against rail transport is often the rail companies have to pay for the land and land taxes required for the rails. They also pay fuel taxes that build roads for the competition (cars/trucks) who don’t pay taxes on the land under the roads. In effect, the rail companies are paying subsidies to the competition.

NOBODY has done a study to see what happens if you raise taxes on fuel. Oh people complain about lost money. What, do they burn the tax money? Do they ship it to third world countries? The tax money doesn’t just go up in smoke. You spend it in the US instead of letting OPEC spend it. A bit of pain but then the US trade deficit goes down, you know, the 10 billion dollars or so the US ships abroad every month…

BB

@Mr:

Does anybody think that those who want to support Saddam like the French….

I wouldn’t say France is supporting Saddam, they want him disarmed just like everyone else. France just doesn’t agree with the U.S. and Britain on how that should be done.

Really? Is France really serious about disarming Saddam?

France is putting it’s contempt for America ahead of international safety. In who’s best interest (besides France) is it to drag this sherade on for another 10 years?

I think the misconception here is what the UN is all about. It’s not like the security council convenes, looks over the evidence, decides what the best decisions is, and then votes. These countries all vote in a way that is best for THEIR COUNTRY. As shall the United States…

@BigBlocky:

How many folks in europe use a blockheater for their car?

i guess none outside Scandinavia, and i have no idea how many there.

You’re right in that 90% of our people live in 5% of the land. The problem is that 5% is in a 100 KM strip North/South and about a 4,000 KM East-West along the border. Having a relatively round country is much better, you can do a grid of transportation links.

True, i didn’t really think of that. It should be “ok” (means pretty round) in the south-eastern part of Canada, shouldn’t it?

I must admit however, the europeans do know how to live life better. I spent 2 weeks there (Germany and Holland) on business. I never ever saw a drive through coffee shop. The idea of getting a coffee and not savouring it, not enjoying others company but rather driving your car to work coffee in hand is just not right! They take more time of work on vacation and vacation tends to come before work insofar as projects at work tend to be put on hold to allow the people to take vacations when they want rather then when the company wants. North America could learn much from that. He who dies richest still dies. He who dies with money didn’t enjoy life as much as he could have.

Well, the above is changing. Ok, i think there will never as many drive-throughs, but coffee-to-go came to stay… and with the projects on hold, well, i guess that’s stories of yesterday with th eworld being in a recession and Germany trying very hard to be more neo-liberal than others…

@Deviant:Scripter:

I think the misconception here is what the UN is all about. It’s not like the security council convenes, looks over the evidence, decides what the best decisions is, and then votes. These countries all vote in a way that is best for THEIR COUNTRY. As shall the United States…

Agreed on that.
But will the US stick to US resolutions, or defy them?

@F_alk:

@Deviant:Scripter:

I think the misconception here is what the UN is all about. It’s not like the security council convenes, looks over the evidence, decides what the best decisions is, and then votes. These countries all vote in a way that is best for THEIR COUNTRY. As shall the United States…

Agreed on that.
But will the US stick to US resolutions, or defy them?

Do you mean UN resolutions?