Iraq, again

@Deviant:Scripter:

… Anyways, Ritter only knew what he (and the other inspectors) destroyed. He has no idea whatsoever that Saddam was even showing him the full extent of what he had stored away, nor does he know what Saddam has accomplished in the last 10 yrs.

We can be so glad that you on the other hand know what SH was working on the last 10 years, and what he has hidden for later use……

Really, it doesn’t even matter. A “cause for war” (as you like to call it) is any violation of the UN resolution that was imposed upon Saddam. You’re missing the point here Yanny, it is not up to us to prove that he has these weapons. This is not an easter egg hunt where we’re supposed to play hide-n-seek with this fool. We simply need to prove that he has violated the terms of the agreement set forth, and I’m fairly confident that Bush will present a strong case for this after the inspectors make their report (January 23?). We knew that Saddam had “x” amount of chemical/biological weapons (that were undestroyed) when the inspectors left Iraq. Now, we need to know where those weapons are; yet so-far Saddam will not tell us where these weapons are.

Again, you only say we “knew” of these weapons, and i say, we didn’t.
As well, you have never read resolution 1441, haven’t you?
There is space for interpretation, true, but for me it takes much more effort to read “Iraw has to deliver the proof” in there than “Iraq disarms, and is not allowed to lie”…… which is a difference.
The Iraqis have said they have no weapons, that they have fulfilled these parts of 1441 and 687. Now you can believe them or not… i suppose you don’t believe them (for less strange reasons than those that make you beleive your president has “proof” saying differently). Then, again, it is your turn to show he has lied.

Realistically, it is not feasible to think that the inspectors are actually going to uncover some “profound” discovery while they’re on their little vacation over there. Do you really think Saddam was stupid enough to leave his stuff in the same places we checked in before we left in the 90’s (with the addition of his palaces.) Of course not. …

small vacation…. sigh
if you don’t take the work of the UN seriously, why do you then insist on the Iraq to do it? More importantly: Why do you use the UN as an excuse for going to war?
Of course, if he had something left, he would have hidden it away. The inspectors are aware of that…
SIGH

@yourbuttocks:

Falk, how is being locked up and interogated not being treated like prisoners of war?

And do you have proof they have been tourtered?

For the second:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/stoptorture/tortureworldwide_2.pdf
page 22+

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/3570712.html

http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/AMR511862002?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES\USA

http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/amr/usa!Open

I hope all teh links work, otherwise just google ‘torture USA’.

FOr the first: They are not POW because your government says so (that thing that also says SH has WMD)…… and if you believe the other, then why not believe the one?
And they are not treated like POWs. Or did the germans in WWII treat their captives from teh eastern front like POWs???

@F_alk:

@StrongBad1988:

saddam tries to kill american pilots just about every day that are flying in Iraqi no-fly zones.

Yup. The Iraq defends itself against US and UK pilots who violate the Iraqs borders.
There is nothing that puts the no-fly zones on any legal ground: they actually are a continual breaking of international law by the side of the US and UK.

Geez, is this guy from Germany or what? :roll:

We can be so glad that you on the other hand know what SH was working on the last 10 years, and what he has hidden for later use……

No, but I’m sure that our intelligence agencies know more than this guy claims to.

Again, you only say we “knew” of these weapons, and i say, we didn’t.
As well, you have never read resolution 1441, haven’t you?
There is space for interpretation, true, but for me it takes much more effort to read “Iraw has to deliver the proof” in there than “Iraq disarms, and is not allowed to lie”…… which is a difference.
The Iraqis have said they have no weapons, that they have fulfilled these parts of 1441 and 687. Now you can believe them or not… i suppose you don’t believe them (for less strange reasons than those that make you beleive your president has “proof” saying differently). Then, again, it is your turn to show he has lied.

Actually, I have read the resolution. Word for word.

Saddam is lying by ommission.

but for me it takes much more effort to read “Iraw has to deliver the proof” in there than “Iraq disarms, and is not allowed to lie”…… which is a difference.

The Iraqis have said they have no weapons, that they have fulfilled these parts of 1441 and 687.

Okay, so where’s Saddam’s proof…?

small vacation…. sigh
if you don’t take the work of the UN seriously, why do you then insist on the Iraq to do it? More importantly: Why do you use the UN as an excuse for going to war?
Of course, if he had something left, he would have hidden it away. The inspectors are aware of that…
SIGH

First of all, I was being sarcastic about the small vacation. :lol:
Secondly, no I do not believe the inspectors can do what they need to do with only 75 people. It’s simply a waste of time.

@Deviant:Scripter:

Geez, is this guy from Germany or what? :roll:

Yup… i am part of a “problem” :)

@Deviant:Scripter:

No, but I’m sure that our intelligence agencies know more than this guy claims to.

Well, then it’s word against word. Unless one of them shows proof for his claims, i stand with the “innocent until proven guilty”…

Saddam is lying by ommission.

Which he says he is not, word against word…… see above.

The Iraqis have said they have no weapons, that they have fulfilled these parts of 1441 and 687.

Okay, so where’s Saddam’s proof…?

Where in 1441 or 687 is denoted that SH has to proof his disarmament?
It is said he must disarm, and the UN will control that.
Now, he was disarmed after Kuwait, says he has nothing left/new. Now the UN has to proof that he has not built new weapons or hidden some.

I think it’s really interesting that you (a) believe your secret services, (b) do not believe Saddam Hussein and © ignore worldwide judicial standards for (d) reasons that sound very unconvincing if you take © into account.

Yup… i am part of a “problem”

Which would be? :wink:

@Deviant:Scripter:

Saddam is lying by ommission.

I do not know your judicial system well enough but….
(1) i know that in germany at least the accused is allowed to lie as much as he wants and as blatant as he wants.
(2) Ommission is not considered lying. It may not be very smart if you want people to trust you, but it is not lying. Is someone who is accused and does not answer at all (which he has the right to) lying all the time?

weird me being on the same page with BOTH Falk and Yanny.
Interesting how the US gives a new chapter in the history of “might making right”. I doubt that any country (maybe aside from Canada) could fly aircraft over the US and expect that there would be no attempts made to take it down. How dare Iraq make any attempts at any form of sovereignty! 10 years ago, they demonstrated they didn’t deserve it. Mind you, so did Germany, so there should be little problems for hostile nations to fly over German soil, no?
The same hypocracy applies to the US judicial system. If any US citizens were treated anywhere in the world, they would cry foul over their prosecuting country’s attempts to not follow “superior” American judicial values. Meanwhile America readily stomps out it’s own “values” as one would a $100 bill on fire when dealing with uncharged criminals.
As for the cannisters - i agree. What happened? Some inspectors “found” them, and they vanished? How do we know they are even there in the first place?
And how naive do Americans have to be to believe the CIA? I don’t even believe our own CSIS most of the time, nevermind an organization that lies as often as it tells the truth in order to obscure itself.

I think it’s really interesting that you (a) believe your secret services, (b) do not believe Saddam Hussein and © ignore worldwide judicial standards for (d) reasons that sound very unconvincing if you take © into account.

I think it’s really interesting that
(a) you can criticize our secret services, yet you’re from which country…?
(b) you would take the word of a genocidal war criminal over the best democracy in the world.
© you seek to apply judicial standards to a man we haven’t even caught yet.

All right. I give up. :P
This argument is just going around in circles. I’ll be back to argue it once Bush says we’re going to war and shows us the evidence, until then, there’s not much more to say.

@Deviant:Scripter:

I think it’s really interesting that you (a) believe your secret services, (b) do not believe Saddam Hussein and © ignore worldwide judicial standards for (d) reasons that sound very unconvincing if you take © into account.

I think it’s really interesting that
(a) you can criticize our secret services, yet you’re from which country…?
(b) you would take the word of a genocidal war criminal over the best democracy in the world.
© you seek to apply judicial standards to a man we haven’t even caught yet.

All right. I give up. :P
This argument is just going around in circles. I’ll be back to argue it once Bush says we’re going to war and shows us the evidence, until then, there’s not much more to say.

a) it’s no mystery that the CIA lies, covers-up, and acts in ways that are morally suspect. Even stupid Americans must have noticed that by now.
b) the “best democracy”? According to who? What percent voted for Bush? Where invading a country is at stake, even the “best democracy” (guffaw) must do SOMETHING to prove its case rather than spew rhetoric (that’s all they’ve done so far. I’m amazed that this is the best they’ve come up with. Hitler did no less.)
c) i think “worldwide judicial standards” refers to proof of guilt (true, this does not apply to France and other 2-bit banana republics).

Americans are not better than everyone else.

Wanna bet? :wink:

This would make an excellent thread, somebody should start one…

@Deviant:Scripter:

Americans are not better than everyone else.

Wanna bet? :wink:

This would make an excellent thread, somebody should start one…

this is true for the fact that America, like Canada, are in a sense, everyone else. Naturally the opposite is not quite true.
By this i mean that N. America is rich with immigrants (Canada - 18% of the pop are immigrants) from all over the world. Ultimately they’re culture and values do and will find their way to expression, even in a culturalist melting pot like America.
Also Americans, while more fortunate than most, are by no means better (neither are Canadians, Swedes, etc.). Just different with self-imposed values on the rest of the world.

@Yanny:

(a) you can criticize our secret services, yet you’re from which country…?
(b) you would take the word of a genocidal war criminal over the best democracy in the world.
© you seek to apply judicial standards to a man we haven’t even caught yet.

a) Thats pretty elitest. His opinion is as valid as yours. Americans are not better than everyone else.

b) “The Best Democracy in the World” is not saying anything. President Bush, the President who disposed more of our Constitutional rights that we in America enjoy, he is saying something. I wouldn’t call him one who promotes Democracy,

c) You seek to just shoot him and be done with it. I don’t know about you, but I believe in the US constitution. We as a country believe in it. Just because one is outside our borders doesn’t mean we stop believing in it.

I heard that France voted “no” to a war in Iraq which means that the issue should be settled - no war in Iraq.

Falk, detainment of POWs is not torture. No evidence of ill-treatment has been produced. THey are not formally declared POWs you say? Did Al-Quaeda formally declare war?

AS for the points brought up in the AI report, compare the U.S. one to the German one and remember that the U.S. has several fold more people:

http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/eur/germany!Open

Your correct YB. In fact, the only evidence of abuse that has been presented is abuse against our military personell, by the 'Qaeda prisoners. Feces thrown at them, riots started with rocks and stick, etc…

Yanni, the comment about American being better than other countries really depends on what criteria you’re judging us on.

Remember, pride of your country is also what others see it as.