UK Med CV to the Pacific?

[simon33]

The point would be more of a fleet-at-anchor deterrent to Japan splitting up its fleets into 3. Generally, the IJN will need some of its fleet to hold off the USA. The rest of its fleet concentrates on the money islands. This mini fleet would be powerful enough to force the IJN to keep its fleet in one SZ at a time while being protected by a scramble from India. Providing that you still have the UK BB of course.

I’m trying it out in one or two games I have going.

[KaLeu]

@simon33:

True enough on I1 (assuming Italy doesn’t attack it strongly) but not on G2.

It’s relevant only on UK1. My point here is, that it’s entirely legal to use two planes from the UK and one plane from Scotland to attack SZ97 in a situation where Germany has strafed but not taken Yugoslavia. The CV would only need to move into SZ97 during non-combat if all planes survive. You could even toss in the Gibraltar plane as well, and the CV is still safe as long as the Scottish and Gibraltar plane both die.
Of course Italy will kill any surviving planes in Yugoslavia.

Whether it’s a good idea to that from a tactical point-of-view, is very circumstantial of course, and I can think of quite a few variants of this alternative way of doing Taranto. Strategically, while I think Marsh is right in stating that the mini-fleet won’t accomplish much for at least several rounds and is no match for Japan anyway, I can also see your point in forcing Japan to keep an eye on that fleet. So I’d say it’s definitely worth a try, provided that the BB is indeed alive. Always good to explore new ideas.

[simon33]

Actually planes from Britain cannot land on Yugoslavia after fighting in SZ97. They have no movement left.

[JDOW]

@Young:

@simon33:

@Young:

You can’t get fighters from London into Taranto without the aircraft carrier, it provides the only legal landing spot for those planes. In other words, planes may not max out movement points just to die, you must declare where planes can legally land before the resolve combat phase can begin.

But if the planes die in the attack you don’t have to move the CV.

You’re right, my apologies.

But without the AC the Taranto is just reckless against a 3 fighter scramble and thus a bad idea!

[KaLeu]

@simon33:

Actually planes from Britain cannot land on Yugoslavia after fighting in SZ97. They have no movement left.

You’re right. I miscounted that one, based on the assumption that Scotland would be more remote than England, but looking at the map, I now see that there’s no difference.

[AldoRaine]

I do not usually do Taranto and instead converge the UK navy in sz 92 after round 1.  This navy usually consists of the CV, 1 destroyer and 2 Cruisers.  During round 2, this navy then meets up with the destroyer that starts off South Africa and the destroyer & Cruiser that start off India in sz 93.  If Japan does not delcare war R1 this means the BB is still alive parked just off Ethiopia.

Now most of the time I need this navy to clear the Italian navy but lets say they leave sz 97. Then I might have to use the RAF to  kill the Italians.  This would leave the UK with 2-3 destroyers, 2-3 Cruisers,  1 BB and one CR.  If a MIC was purchased for Persia R2 then I have been tempted to buy a another CR to add to this fleet.  This gives a very respectable fleet that if it does nothing else could just park off India.  This would make an amphibious assault on India after R5 or R6 very costly and it is unlikely India falls early with out some amphibious assault.

Obviously there are a lot of if’s in this plan but I have played many games where I have had 3 destroyers, 3 cruisers, 1 BB and 1 CR off sz 93 by R4.  I usually use this fleet to then protect the US invasion force but I have often thought about bringing it to the Pacific.  It is just that the 21 air units Japan starts with scare the shit out me so I have never done it.

[simon33]

@JDOW:

But without the AC the Taranto is just reckless against a 3 fighter scramble and thus a bad idea!

It’s 73% of killing the TT. Does that fit your criteria of reckless? A bit chancey I would say.

In probability there will be a 2ftr 1tac scramble though. This assumes no bid. If there’s a bid I would put a sub in SZ98 and hit it with only one plane from London. That is still 73%.

[MarshmallowofWar]

I think if you’re going to do Taranto or Taranto-West then you commit to success rather than rolling the dice with a 25% chance of failure.

Marsh

[MarshmallowofWar]

@ShadowHAwk:

If they dont scramble you basicaly have a full fleet there, now italy cannot really hit you full carrier + destroyer + cruiser + 2 fighters.

This really screws over italy, so if they scamble you basicaly have a good time if they dont scramble you got a huge battlefleet in the med still.

I think this position is short-sighted. Yes, if there is no scramble you handily win the battle. However, on G2, the Luftwaffe annihilates your fleet and doesn’t even break a sweat doing it. Now Italy will have its NO until the UK and/or US can build new units for and get them to the Mediterranean.

Marsh

[simon33]

@Marshmallow:

I think if you’re going to do Taranto or Taranto-West then you commit to success rather than rolling the dice with a 25% chance of failure.

I would count it as a success if you kill the BB. That’s about 80%. But doubtless you’ve got the same answer.

[MarshmallowofWar]

Isn’t killing the BB the point of the whole attack? Or do you think Italy would take the BB as a casualty before losing aircraft?

Marsh

[Tirano]

@Marshmallow:

Isn’t killing the BB the point of the whole attack? Or do you think Italy would take the BB as a casualty before losing aircraft?

Marsh

I take the BB before Aircraft, as Italy, because Air dominates this game. Saving the Italian fighters is much better, because they can Can-Open for Germ or can be used if you build a carrier.  I thought the whole reason of doing Taranto was to kill 2 Italian Trans, and that taking out the BB was just a nice side affect, right?

[MarshmallowofWar]

Agree with you that air should not be taken as loss before BB in this scenario.

I don’t think you can kill the transport before the BB thought.

Marsh

[Tirano]

@Marshmallow:

Agree with you that air should not be taken as loss before BB in this scenario.

I don’t think you can kill the transport before the BB thought.

Marsh

Well no you can’t, however the reason I do the Taranto raid is to deny Italy of transports, not a Battleship

[simon33]

I will count taranto as a success if I kill the bb but leave the tt alive.  Just less successful than i hoped. In that case you have to decide whether to use the cv as a blocker.  Similarly to if taranto fails without using the cv. It is not total death.

[simon33]

The Italians have a 20% chance of keeping the bb alive and a further seven pc chance of keeping the tt alive.

[simon33]

@JDOW:

But without the AC the Taranto is just reckless against a 3 fighter scramble and thus a bad idea!

Thinking about this some more, keeping the CV out massively reduces the consequences of either of the med attacks failing or partly failing. Doesn’t change much if the DD in SZ96 survives but if that is sunk but the TT survives, which happens a few % of times, it allows you to move the CV to SZ96 and block an amphibious assault on Egypt.

If the SZ97 Taranto raid fails to kill the BB, you can move the CV to SZ99 where it will be killed but at least you are likely to hold Egypt. If you kill the BB but not the TT, you’d move to SZ97 to prevent amphibious assaults on Syria/Cyprus/Crete.

[MarshmallowofWar]

@simon33:

The Italians have a 20% chance of keeping the bb alive and a further seven pc chance of keeping the tt alive.

Without the Italian navy the transport is easy prey unless it stays pinned under air cover, which limits it to picking up troops from North Africa and delivering them to Europe. As soon as it leaves protection, the transport dies. Either way, the transport is no longer a real threat unless the two units it can deliver will tip the scales in a crucial battle for Egypt. So, while not a total success, I would not be unhappy if the transport lived an extra round.

Marsh

[taamvan]

You have to send in the carrier, because it is a stump unit in that situation (on the attack the carrier has 0 attack power but takes 2 free hits).  That means that you can take 2 full hits before your Attack Power diminishes.  This has a massive effect on the outcome of battles but is not reflected in Base Odds calculations.

You typically don’t want to land the planes where Italy/Ger can strike them either, like malta, crete, Syria, Yugo, Greece etc or you lose them just the same.

Not losing the BB last is inadvisable and does not make sense.  It’s irreplaceable and can heal itself where it sits.  Then, they have to come and kill it again.  The only time this would be the right move is if subs are present and first striking activated.

[simon33]

You don’t have to send the cv in and doing so expends a 16ipc unit on absorbing two hits. Hardly optimal.