Practical Counter to Pearl II

[Jennifer]

Getting Japan to go heavy navy is not that hard.  All you need to do is sink their capitals in SZ 52, build 2 more capitals yourself and then match him IPC for IPC in navy.

Switch likes to think his carrier based fighters are all that, but to be realistic, they are not.  They have a max range of 2 to get to combat, if you wnat them to land on the carriers, that means at best you can invade up to Yakut, China or Kazakh with them and if you’re over in the Suez canal, you are not defending against an American incursion.  That means you’re really limited more to Buryatia, SFE, Yakut, China and India for invasion possibilities with those 4 fighters (0r 6 if you go that route) tied up on carriers protecting against an American submarine fleet augmented with carriers and battleships.

Basically, Germany is on her own against Russia and England.  Russia 24 IPC, England 30 IPC, Germany 40 IPC.  That’s 4 IPC in favor of the allies.  Not much margine for error, but perfectly doable if all you want to do is contain Germany until you get Japan reduced to her home island and then focus 100% on Germany.

[Guest]

And with solid INF/ART builds, mainland IC’s, the carrier based FIGs, a SUB here and there…
USA is not going to get very far in the Pacific without spending a LOT more money than Japan does on fleet.

And while the US is spending cash in the Pacific, Japan is STILL pushing into Asia, dropping UK’s and USSR’s income and making Germany’s job easier.

If you are going to go NAVY to go after Japan, you ahve one choice unless you want to lose…
GO ALL OUT (with USA AND UK)
And while you are at it, pray like hell you can knock Japan down far enough and FAST enough that you can change focus and get after Germany before Moscow falls and the Reich turns on London and Washington.

[axis_roll]

@ncscswitch:

And with solid INF/ART builds, mainland IC’s, the carrier based FIGs, a SUB here and there…
USA is not going to get very far in the Pacific without spending a LOT more money than Japan does on fleet.

And while the US is spending cash in the Pacific, Japan is STILL pushing into Asia, dropping UK’s and USSR’s income and making Germany’s job easier.

If you are going to go NAVY to go after Japan, you ahve one choice unless you want to lose…
GO ALL OUT (with USA AND UK)
And while you are at it, pray like hell you can knock Japan down far enough and FAST enough that you can change focus and get after Germany before Moscow falls and the Reich turns on London and Washington.

I’m not sure UK has to go all out.  They have quite a bit of throw away units in the pacific to hinder Japanese activity J1.  Also, Russia can set up and wreck some havoc R2 without pulling too many resources from the German conflict.  With these proper delaying measures and a US Pearl counter and navy build up of their own, Japan will be slow out of the blocks.

Key is how does Germany respond to Russias agressive posturing toward Japan on R1.  The allies are showing their intended hand… Does Germany throw a trump card or play close to the vest?  Another big key is what’s left in Pearl (even IF japan attacks or goes more than a very light force).

Lots of variables.  I still maintain that if Japan does not get a quick boost in their income early, their influence on the game in Asia can be greatly diminshed with US Naval pressure.

[Guest]

Diminished, yes, but not elliminated.

But without the US in Europe, UK is runnign at half income in 2-3 turns…

And that mens Germany has an economic advantage over the combined “might” of UK and USSR, with UK further hindered by the need to buy expensive naval units to get to Japan… naval units that Germany has the naval and air power to destroy, leaving Russia alone against Germany.

[axis_roll]

@ncscswitch:

Diminished, yes, but not elliminated.

But without the US in Europe, UK is runnign at half income in 2-3 turns…

And that mens Germany has an economic advantage over the combined “might” of UK and USSR, with UK further hindered by the need to buy expensive naval units to get to Japan… naval units that Germany has the naval and air power to destroy, leaving Russia alone against Germany.

It’s a fine balance, I agree.
UK gains some relief taking norway, so it’s not SO bad.

USSR can make up for the lack of UK income since they have less Japanese pressure in Asia… they can more concentrate on Germany.

Again, allot depends on G1 response.

[ajgundam5]

Russia cannot make up hardly any income from Germany if Germany only has to worry about Russia and a little UK. Russia will be defending practically the entire time.

[Jennifer]

I don’t see England running at 50%.  I really dont.

Maybe down India.  But They have Egypt, Algeria, Libya, Norway and all the rest of Africa.

Down 3 IPC for India
Up 5 IPC for Algeria, Libya and Norway.

[Guest]

So UK restores their holdings in your example then Jen?

OK, about the tiem your fleet is built and moving across the Pacificl Germany is buildign in Caucuses since they are ONLY facing Russia while the US fracks around in the Pacific, and UK is in Africa.

[Jennifer]

I really don’t see it going down that way, Switch.

I just don’t.  I see Japan hard pressed from Round 2 on fighting the Americans back and making minimal, if any, gains in Asia; England with control of all of Africa and hopefully Norway (though it’s nice for Russia to have Norway) and Germany and Russia in an arms race in Europe.

Yes, over the span of 10-12 Rounds Germany will eventually get the upper hand militarily over the combined armies of England and Russia, but by then Japan should be reduced to a smoldering ruin and left with only their main island.  America should be in posession of FIC, Kwang and Manchuria with ICs on all 3 pumping out tanks to race to the front lines.

Worst case scenario, Russia falls the round before American tanks can liberate it.

Of course it all only works if Japan goes heavy to Pearl and takes average or above average damage.  I situation I actually hope to avoid.

[Guest]

Right, you count on a single J1 move, and ignore the impact of a J1 IC.

Even if you trap Japan to Japan in USA3 or 4 (more like 5-6 if you head to EI etc. first) then Japan still ahve about 20-30 divisions in Asia.  And that is more than enough to skew the Russia battle to be over long before Tokyo falls.  In fact, I would expect GERMAN ARM in Manch and FIC before the US can think about tha tfinal strike…

[xenon]

Yes, it  is  cripple Japan first.
With Operation torch by UK and US T1 UK can handle Africa alone. And afterwards the US goes island hopping.  Just keep tthe Indian fleet alive until they may merge with the american and japan is cornered

[Guest]

But you just can;t cripple Japan THAT fast, not without a full scale KJF in play.

J1:  Japan expands AT LEAST to $32 IPC (China).  They lose no income Turn 1
J2:  Bury falls (worst case that is ALL that falls).  Now $33.  USA fleet is moves to Solomons (1 BB, 1 TRN, 1 DST, USA1 Build)
J3:  SFE/Yakut fall.  Japan now at $35.  J1 Manch IC has produced 6 divisions in Asia, TRNs have sent 14 more divisions.  USA takes NG and EI
J4:  Japan has $35 cash, 3 more divisions built in Asia, 6 more transported.  Evenk/Novo fall.  $32.  SUBs have been being added into the mix sicne J2.  Borneo falls to USA.
J5.  9 more divisions to Asia.  Another SUB.  FIGs palced on existing AC’s.  Sinkiang falls (if it has not already fallen).  $34.  USA goes to either Phillipines or FIC.
J6:  Fleet Battle USA/Japan, or if the fleet was reinforced, Japan just stays in SZ60.  3 more divisions in Asia IC.  Tokyo stacking underway.  Japan collects $31

Japan now has 41 divisions in Asia, plus what they started with (less losses while destroying Russian and US forces earlier).  That is a LOT of fodder to work over Moscow with, especially in a 1-2-3 punch of Germany/Japan/Germany

And notice that I was very conservative as Japan.  I did not pre-emptive strike the US fleet at Solomons; I assumed India was too tough a nut to crack and so just holdign in FIC, slow strike on Sinkiang due to Russia stacking, etc.

[Dr. Jones]

@xenon:

Yes, it  is  cripple Japan first.
With Operation torch by UK and US T1 UK can handle Africa alone. And afterwards the US goes island hopping.  Just keep tthe Indian fleet alive until they may merge with the american and japan is cornered

I don’t hope this isn’t a stupid question but what is Operation torch? How does uk help best in a kjf?

[cyan]

@Dr.:

@xenon:

Yes, it  is  cripple Japan first.
With Operation torch by UK and US T1 UK can handle Africa alone. And afterwards the US goes island hopping.  Just keep tthe Indian fleet alive until they may merge with the american and japan is cornered

I don’t hope this isn’t a stupid question but what is Operation torch? How does uk help best in a kjf?

thats like the invasion of Algeria. the UK has a small feet of India an can mess with the Japanese. the units in Africa and Egypt can make there away to India where they can be useful. I F the UK can hold India they can be very helpful.

[murraymoto]

I would be concerned with the UK trying to cover both norway to reinforce Russia and delving into Africa on their own.  They would have to take out the German Med navy and hold it against new builds.  I think that they would have to focus on one or the other and either leave Russia alone for 3-5 turns or give up Africa.  Without the Americans into Africa, I think UK’s divided punch is too weak in Africa.
  I think you give up Africa and hold Germany back until the US contains Jap….

[DarthMaximus]

But with the American forces already on the board they can send up to 3 shipments to Afr, if needed, without buying anything for the Atlantic.

UK/US can merge at Sz 8 on rd 1, then rd 2 both UK and US can go heavy to Alg and they can do so again on Rd 3, which means you land in Nor on Rd 4.

This means Russia is on her own for the first 4 turns (maybe some Allied air help).  But I like to station a lot of UK forces in Per and retreat the US forces to Kaz, just in case.

But to me this seems do-able for the Russians.  Assuming avg dice you can trade Ukr for the first 3 turns, possibly more, with your original troops and 3 buys of inf and arm on R1-3.

You also have UK reinforcements in Per/Ind that can move to Cauc and US troops in Sin that can fall back as well.

[Guest]

Use the FIGs at first, and later the BOM for punch.

You are still in the 40’s for units (50 something total).
Hell of a lot of fodder for Russia to deal with…
And if the FIGs move in 1 turn before the main strike on Russia, then USA can kill the Jap fleet.  So Japan just stacks Japan, helps knock out Russia, and stands off the Americans after Moscow is TOAST… assuming hte US in in perfect position to strike the Jap fleet the round that Russia falls…

[Guest]

The US CAN start getting troops to Asia.  They can reach FIC with 1 BB, 1 TRN by USA 3…
IF there is no Japan presence left after Pearl
IF Japan does not attack those ships along the way
IF the 2 units on that TRN do not die taking islands along the way.
Then yes, there would be 2 US INF in FIC for Japan to deal with on J4.

More likely is that on US1 is the Pearl Counter, and building 1 or more TRNs on US1 to replace the one sunk on the Pearl Counter.  And of course other ships to protect the fleet.  If the US goes 100% Pacific on USA1, THEN the US might actually have 6 units to FIC for Japan to deal with on J5

But since I am not likely to let that fleet through unmolested, and since all Japan has to do is kill the TRN’s to stop the flow of troops…

[Jennifer]

Even with an IC for Japan on J1, I don’t see Japan doing much to turn the tide of battle.  All I see is an accellerated German advance because Russia’s sending 1 or 2 Infnatry in the other direction to block the max 3 Japan can build on the mainland.  With no transports, Japan’s not sending squat for assistance.

So go for it.  A J1 IC just means America saves 15 IPCs cause they don’t have to build it.

BTW, I’d say primary duty is sinking the Jap fleet and blockading Japan.  You can dispatch 2 transports, 3 Infantry, 1 Armor to pick off islands after that.

[Guest]

Supply hain logistics is the flaw in the Big Gulp.

You can;t keep a filled supplt line protected all across the Pacific.  And to build up for that one decisive battle, you are going to lose your initial wave of TRNs doing it.

So… you take a few turns, you build up your fleet, and then after 3-5 turns of pure US PAcific Naval builds, you sink the Japan fleet.

NOW you can start to build replacement TRN’s (1 turn) and sail them across the Pacific (2 more turns) to have an impact.  Try to add the TRNs in the rear areas before the fleet is gone, and they get SUNK before they get past Pearl.

No matter how you slice it, Japan has AT LEAST 6 turns before the US can bring their might to bear in any meaningful way.  And with just 1 new IC and 3 new TRNs, Japan is dropping 11 units a turn into Asia from J3 forward (2 in J1 w/ 1 TRN; 9 in J2 with 3 at IC, 6 via TRN; 11 J3+ after teh 4th TRN is built in J2), so call it 55 NEW divisions, plus 7 to start…
SIXTY TWO DIVISIONS
Even with all INF, that is still a heack of an issue for Russia that will have produced only 40-50 new divisions in 6 turns… and has German as well as Japan forces to deal with.