German buys turn one

[frood]

I haven’t really studied it, but is it a given that the Allies will be able to attack with all of that? As I said, I’d only move out to SZ 7 if it was safe to do so. It may be that some Allied units can be hit by the luftwaffe, reducing the threat, or that they move out of range somehow.

Maybe some Allied fleet will move to block the unification, which can be killed off. Maybe they won’t build those naval units when/where you think they will.

I don’t understand your scenario - how do the Germans have 6 Ftrs and a Bom with their fleet - one CV can only carry 2 Ftrs.

IF the German fleet can meet in SZ7, it would be: 3 Subs 5 TRN 1 DD 1 BB, and if the CV is build add 1 CV 2 Ftrs to that. That’s a lot of fodder and some decent defence. The UK starts with …  ahh I see - you are thinking about the German fleet attacking a UK fleet in SZ 6 and assuming a CV build, whereas I am talking about moving both fleets to SZ 7 in non-combat if possible.

If the Baltic is blocked up and Norway dead-zoned, the UK may not put its fleet in SZ 6 at all. That’s when I’d consider uniting the fleet, if I didn’t think keeping those TRNS in the Baltic was worth it.

Maybe I’d build 1 TRN 1 AC instead in the Baltic.

[newpaintbrush]

@froodster:

By the way, can you really land Ftrs on a newly built carrier? TripleA seems not to allow it, but I recall earlier discussion of the rules that this was allowed.

Yes, you CAN land fighters on a newly built carrier, under Larry Harris Tournament Rules (LHTR), which TripleA (at this moment) does not support.

ONLY for the moment, though.  I sense change coming.  And I’m not just talking about my underpants.

[newpaintbrush]

@Imperious:

Look up the Socratic technique on the internet.

Ew.  I mean, she’s cute, but she IS my sister.

–

No, really.  The Socratic method is basically this:

Bright Shiny Eyed Individual (bright and perky):  “Hi!  I want to write a guide!”

Evil Old Socratic Bastard (lounging in chair):  “Oh, GOOOOOOOD!  :-D”

Not So Bright Shiny Eyed Indvidual (a bit less shiny eyed sixty hours later):  “OK, here’s the first draft!”

Evil Old Socratic Bastard (waking up from long nap):  “Oh, this won’t work at all.”  (slice chop wham bam.  Horribly enough, criticisms are accurate.)

Slightly Downcast Individual (a bit downcast):  “Er, um . . . okay . . . let me rewrite this . . .”

Evil Old Socratic Bastard (sipping a nice cool drink):  “Oh, yeah, you do that.  Heh heh.  I mean, um, I look forward to it!”

Exhausted and Bitter Individual (bags under eyes):  “Okay, here’s the second draft.  It has all the facts and figures and extrapolations and projections.”

Evil Old Socratic Bastard (looking up from comfy chair):  “Oh, but you missed . . .” (slice chop wham bam.  Horribly enough, criticisms are accurate.)

Angered and Embittered and Exhaused Individual (suicidal):  “I can’t do any more!  I give up!”

Evil Old Socratic Bastard (cheerfully):  “Oh, you look like you could use some cheering up.  How about we both sit back on these comfy ass chairs and snooze in the sunlight, while waiting for a Bright Eyed Individual to come along?”

Evil Old Socratic Bastard II (cheerfully):  “Oh, that sounds QUITE fun!”

–

Works for politics too!

Basically, you sit back and relax, let someone else make all the arguments, and you poke holes in it.

[axis_roll]

If I can chime in….

There are keys that were briefly mentioned but not taken into account:
1). Russias buy
2). The amount of russians left alive in West Russia and Ukraine.
3). Russias non-combat on R1

If Russia is pressuring the Germans out east, a fleet may not even be an option.
How good is the Russian player?  Does he recognize that the German fleet buy on G1 causes Germany to be ground unit poor, and now Russia can/should be willing to throw units at Gemany (even at a loss) to begin to bleed Germany dry.

When Germany buys a navy, you are not really forcing the allies to do all that much differently.  Axis game plans that force the allies to react usually work better.  The allies are going to build an Atlantic navy regardless.  But now Germany is not buying what she needs/usually will buy: ground units.

This is a tricky dance Germany is attempting… my experience has been that unless the allies mis-play their reaction to the German navy, or Russia is weak in the eastern theatre, then this is a poor long term game plan.

[Imperious Leader]

Your comments are welcome and its great that you have taken some time to post.

The original idea is russia took belo and lost 1-2 infantry, and took west russia and lost 2-3 infantry. The russians probably bought 8 infantry or 3/3 or even 4 inf or 3 artillery.

The russian player and the allies have the idea of KGF and the bid was 3-5. The russian sub was/is with the allied fleet at SZ#6 for the block.

No NA’s are being played.

the options were:

1. attempt a link up with the medd fleet
2. sealion
3. keep the fleet in baltic as a threat and shuck infantry/art to russia with 4 trannys

I maintain only #3 is a plausible idea and option #1 is pretty much a huge gamble.

All of this is an attempt to make sence of the german buys on G1.

the choices so far:

1. CV and 3 Tranny
2. CV 8 infantry or (mix of art and infantry)
3. one DD, balance land units
4. all land units ( whatever combination of inf,art,and tanks)
5. rockets and bomber ( morrison games)
6. Buy tranny for medd, balance land
7. 1 CV and 3 subs
8. land and air units combo

[frood]

I’m not sure on that assumption on the Russian sub. If it moves to SZ 6 by itself, it’s a pretty nice target of opportunity for Germany in G1. I’d kill it with air (ftr/bom) and then there would be less Allied ships to interfere with the possible dash on G2.

Then, if the UK still moves into SZ 6, I wouldn’t attempt unification in G2. I MIGHT strafe to sink a few TRNs but that would be about it. Then as fleets move around during the game I might sneak down to SZ7 if the opportunity arose.

My whole strategy is based around not getting my units killed. I like to make my victory omelet with as few of my eggs as possible, though I don’t mind using the other guy’s eggs.

[Imperious Leader]

I would presume the Tranny moves first to SZ#2 and then on R2 to SZ#6. The German player would probably leave it alone.

But Floodster what do you think about just leaving the stuff in the baltic and shuffle 8 men to russia?

And additionally you keep the sealion threat open.

and provide real defence for Germany.

[frood]

Are we talking about the tranny or the sub? Yeah, I guess it can move to block in SZ 6 in round 2.

I think the Baltic factory (if that’s what were calling it) is a good option, perhaps better than fleet unification. Of course, if it is, the allied player may NOT want to block unification just for the sake of allowing the German player to move if they want to.

[jsp4563]

@U-505:

Et Tu, jsp. My tourney partner. The wound cuts deep.  :lol:

Nothing personal, you’re just WRONG!  :evil:

Ya knows what’s missing from this whole debate is the WHY?  Why does Germany want to unify their fleet in SZ7 on G2?  I don’t see any strategic gain by doing so.

[Imperious Leader]

Yes that is true. What i gather a few think the fleet will join up after all is said and done and move into the medd somehow.

The second idea they want to maintain is after the battle they claim the allied loses are so great that the German player has swindled them in a disadvantageous exchange.

I maintain the only halfway decent option is:

1. ignore the navy buys on G1
2. buy enough just so planes alone dont sink the baltic fleet
3. buy a carrier and trannys (either at once or by installments) and use it as threat ans shuck material to russia.

[rjclayton]

Wow.  What a condescending post.  From a moderator, no less.

<shakes head=“”></shakes>

[Imperious Leader]

Yea you probably correct … Ill edit.

[frood]

@jsp4563:

Ya knows what’s missing from this whole debate is the WHY?  Why does Germany want to unify their fleet in SZ7 on G2?  I don’t see any strategic gain by doing so.

Well my “why” is to gain long-term control of the Mediterranean, to control Africa and really threaten Caucasus. If spending 16 IPC in the baltic allows me to eventually bring a 52 IPC navy to join the 40 IPC navy in the Mediterranean, that’s a good use of 16 IPCs.

I have yet to actually achieve this in a game though, so I’m just spitballing here.

And for the record, I have not advocated attacking the Allied fleet as being some kind of favourable exchange. As Germany is initially surrounded and outproduced, I don’t think simplification is as good plan for Germany - again, force conservation is my modus operandus.

[jsp4563]

@froodster:

@jsp4563:

Ya knows what’s missing from this whole debate is the WHY?  Why does Germany want to unify their fleet in SZ7 on G2?  I don’t see any strategic gain by doing so.

Well my “why” is to gain long-term control of the Mediterranean, to control Africa and really threaten Caucasus. If spending 16 IPC in the baltic allows me to eventually bring a 52 IPC navy to join the 40 IPC navy in the Mediterranean, that’s a good use of 16 IPCs.

I have yet to actually achieve this in a game though, so I’m just spitballing here.

And for the record, I have not advocated attacking the Allied fleet as being some kind of favourable exchange. As Germany is initially surrounded and outproduced, I don’t think simplification is as good plan for Germany - again, force conservation is my modus operandus.

If long term control of the Med is the goal, the a G1 or G2 purchase of 1CV & 1tp is a better option.  Trying to unite the fleets in sz7 for a move to the med will result in heavy losses to the fleet before they can get back to the med.

[Imperious Leader]

If you want (you meaning others who favor it) to link up the fleets why not just buy a damm carrier and 3 trannys in the medd and avoid all of this mess?

Then you got 4 trannys and 8 men per turn right into the caucasus and africa is protected. Eventually your baltic fleet is under attack but you cant win them all. The medd is more important anyway.

[frood]

@Imperious:

If you want (you meaning others who favor it) to link up the fleets why not just buy a damm carrier and 3 trannys in the medd and avoid all of this mess?

Then you got 4 trannys and 8 men per turn right into the caucasus and africa is protected. Eventually your baltic fleet is under attack but you cant win them all. The medd is more important anyway.

I have to admit I’ve been leaning that way in the last bit too. That build might be a bit rich though, I’d do maybe 1 TRN 1 AC. If the Russian fighters are out of range, I’d skip the AC and do one or two TRNs.

One nice thing is that you can wait until after combat to decide where to place the naval units. If Egypt went exceptionally well, then maybe you’d consider putting the ships in the Baltic. If Africa will need help ASAP (prolly most of the time), then you can put it in the Med.

[Baghdaddy]

Surrender the BALTIC???  :-o :-o :-o

That 16 IPC worth of TRANny in the Baltic is definitely worth it.

• It is a deterrent against UK coming into the Baltic.
• It is a bridge to NOR and KAR, both vital spaces to keeping the UK/US from joining up with the UK
• It is a threat on UK that forces a garrison to prevent SeaLion
• It is the “fodder” part an operational fleet that could be used in an open water conflict

That is why I build 2 TRAN in the BAL on G1 and what I expect of them.

I have not yet seen a game where it was a bad idea.  Even the most agressive USSR and KGF effort still is slowed down by this move.  If anything, I might advocate a 3 TRAN build on G1 to make sure all of those points are intact on G2 if faced with truly agressive USSR and UK players.  Anything less is not as much of a deterrent.

[frood]

I still agree that a Baltic build can also be good - boy I’m all over the place here - and a Med build can also be good - but can Germany maintain two fleets - hence unification might be a good idea for overall survivability (if opportunity presents itself).

Building 2 TRN Baltic and 1 TRN 1 CV Med? That does mean NO land forces, but the naval presence helps protect the European shores too… If you were to spend all IPCS on navy, that would be the way to go I think. And then many many turns of purely Inf builds…

[squirecam]

@Imperious:

If you want (you meaning others who favor it) to link up the fleets why not just buy a damm carrier and 3 trannys in the medd and avoid all of this mess?

Then you got 4 trannys and 8 men per turn right into the caucasus and africa is protected. Eventually your baltic fleet is under attack but you cant win them all. The medd is more important anyway.

If a fleet is bought in the med, then a dd, trans and 2 subs (36 IPC) are wasted in the baltic. They will die to the UK’s air, at perhaps a 20 IPC loss.

Germany has 6 fighters. For a mere 16 IPC, that adds 11 defense to that fleet. UK/USA must spend more than that 16 IPC to destroy it.

Going to the med may be a good or bad idea, but it does nothing to take advantage of the 36 IPC you have in the baltic.

[ajgundam5]

In my game vs Jsp he did a German opening of 2 ACs + 1 Trn and placed 1 AC in Baltic and 1 AC + 1 Trn in Med. Not far into the game but it will probably be interesting. Not far into the game but I will like to see how he intends to use it.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=8784.0