After Action Report - AAR
I hosted a G40 game this Saturday using the rules set listed at the top of this thread. I think by far the thing that we liked most was the way Naval Combat works.
Giving ships 2 different rolls (one for AAA and one for ship-to-ship) made for a very realistic and fun game. Remember, their AAA is the ONLY way a ship can hit an airplane. All of the sudden, your ships start to feel naked if they are not either grouped with a CV or under the protection of an air-base. Also, the @1 rolls for Tactical Bombers made for some pretty interesting outcomes.
The other thing we enjoyed was the ability for Naval Units to attempt to flee. Both the attacker and defender can do this with a roll of 4 or higher. This allowed for Naval Engagements to be violent … but not necessarily fatal. There was one occasion when a smaller Japanese fleet attacked a SUPERIOR US fleet. A Japanese TAC bomber got a lucky hit on one of the defending CV’s. … The US defender decided to run on the next turn, got lucky with a die-roll, and managed to escape. Also, there were several times where smaller fleets were attacked, and managed to escape after the 1st or 2nd round of combat. This made for more diverse and fun gameplay.
The other “Hit” was the HIGH LUCK CASUALTY system. This is a very simple and fun rule to implement. Young Grasshopper and Baron really nailed this one. On the Naval side of the battles, Defending Fighters and Modified TACs can hit BBs or CVs with rolls of 4 (we put the CV’s in the 4 column instead of the 3 column … reasoning was that these would be the most valued and protected ships in the fleets). On the Land Side, Tanks and fighters could occasionally hit high-value targets.
Finally, 3 turns per round makes the game go a lot faster. But we had already been playing a simplified version of that system for several months now.
Anyway, thanks for everyone’s input on this rules set. So far, we really enjoyed it. We are going to try another game in about 3 to 4 weeks.
Also Submarine loose their special capacity to hit ship only since all warships hit directly other ship.
To simplify naval combat and gives something to sub which also do not get the AA attack roll bonus, let them roll always surprise strike (DD or not):
Sub A2 first strike D1 first strike cost 6.
OR
Reduce Submarine cost to the sweet 5 IPCs spot with no change as in your OPost.
(But it can remain a too much interesting Naval fodder at 5 IPCs).
Subs currently cannot hit air units. They don’t have any AAA capabilities. But, **if subs could hit using their suprise attack with or without DD’s, wouldn’t that kind of eliminate one of the most important aspects of destroyers in the game? Also, it would eliminate the Cat-Mouse ratio of Subs vs. Destroyer**s. I’m not so sure about this. Having a Destroyer cancel ONE sub, makes players have to have lots of destroyers in their fleets. It also gives an incentive to have separate “wolf-packs” of subs.
Destroyer doesn’t loose its ability to block Submarine submerge and stealth move on 1:1 basis.
Also, it is a cheap fodder at 7. You prefer to loose DD rather than a Cruiser or a Carrier.
Maybe this suggestion about Sub always having first strike is tied to another aspect I forgot to mention (but introduced in G40 enhanced thread) still can enhanced naval depiction accuracy:
Submarines are immune to other Submarines. Sub cannot hit Subs nor planes.
That way DD is the only naval fodder available against enemy’s subs.
I’m pretty sure it worth the try since you seems to like accurate naval depiction.
Also, an issue I noted with DD blocking Sub surprise strike on 1:1 basis is that sub attack and defense rolls constantly change from surprise phase or regular phase according to number of vessels in excess, whether Subs or Destroyers.
With my idea, it is simpler: Sub attack is always in the surprise phase.
And according to AA calc, a 6 IPCs Sub A2 first strike vs 7 IPCs DD A2 D2 is the same odds than OOB Sub vs OOB DD.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36518.msg1460601#msg1460601
@Baron:
@The:
“Since Sub always have First Strike” I thought only undetected subs have the “first strike option” (@2 in attack & @1 while defending) while detected subs fire along with all other vessels. At least this is the way we handle this in our games…
OOB, you are right Sub cost 6, A2 D1 and gets Surprise Strike if no DD is present.
In my redesign Sub suggestion, DD cost 6 and block 1:1 Sub’s Submerge and Stealth Move, but can’t affect the Sub’s Surprise Strike (at 5 IPCs vs 6 IPCs, A2 first strike vs D2, the IPC ratio already put DD at the same OOB AACalc odds of 6 IPCs vs 8 IPCs, A2 vs D2)
Simpler to let Sub, cost 5, attack A2 First strike all the time, but defend @1 regular.
Anyway, you would need Destroyer as fodder and to attack Sub, because they can Submerge, if their is no DD.@Baron:
Unit type
Cost � Combat values
Special abilitiesSUBMARINE
5 IPCs A2fs* D1 M2
Permanent A2 first strike *against all surface vessels only, including DDs.
Cannot hit Sub or Aircraft
Submerge and Stealth MoveDESTROYER
6 IPCs A2 D2 M2
Block Sub’s Submerge (first round only) and Stealth move, both on a 1:1 basis.TRANSPORT
8 IPCs A0 D0 M2, 1 hit,
Carry 2 units, 1 Inf + 1 any ground unit
No defense against warships,
1 Transport can escape from Naval Battle in the same SZ at each end of combat round, if there is no enemy’s aircraft. Simply remove TP from battle board and place it in the SZ on the map.
Regular AA @1 against up to 1 plane, whichever the lesser.Undecided: Submarine’s Stealth Move and No Control of Sea Zone still afford 1 single shot @1 per Submarine unit against any warships or transports passing by in the same SZ.
Hello Baron,
@Subs cannot hit other subs:
I really like this. Actually, we were already thinking about this in my group. I think I’ll do some test-scenarios later this week to see how it effects balance. But it should be OK.
@Destroyers blocking Subs on a 1:1 ratio
Big Battles: We found it quite easy in the game to keep track of the Surprise Attacks when there were big fleets involved. …. Just count the Subs against the defending Destroyers. Yes. The number of Surprise Attacks can change from round-to-round in a battle. But I don’t think that is a problem. Also, any “Left-Over” subs that exceed the enemy’s number of destroyers may opt to submerge. We played that as if those subs left the battle, never to return. This is regardless of what happens to the rest of their fleet that was accompanying them.
Defending Subs in a “Wolf Pack”: One thing we did encounter is the following. Sometimes there are groups of subs-only in a “wolf-pack”. Let’s say there is a group of 4 subs, alone in a sea-zone. An attacker might want to hit those subs. However, lets say the attacker only has 2 destroyers. In this case, we played that 2 of those 4 subs would be carried to the battle-board. The other 2 subs would remain on the map, regardless of what happened to the other two on the battle board. … And also, per the revised Navy Retreat Rules … If any of the defending subs survived the 1st round of battle, there is a chance that they might be able to retreat/escape with an retreat roll of 4 or higher. So that makes for some pretty interesting outcomes.
I would like to ear about your play-test with Sub when it will be done.
In my version of destroyer blocking sub, it was only for a single round.
Navy retreat can work instead of single round blocker.
I played once with 1:1 blocking surprise strike. It is playable but it is another thing to manage during resolve combat phase. My point is you can get the same statistical odds than OOB witth less Sub and DD mechanics, just by reducing the gap to 1 IPC between DD and Sub.
About blocking first strike attack, it seems like inspired by tactical level of antisub warfare rather than strategic theatre level of operations.
Any Submarine going underwater seems to have better chance to surprise any assaillant.
On defense, Submarine is not actively chasing target but remain difficult to find, which can easily be depicted that it must show its position first before being engaged by ASV DDs.
Giving this generic ability of surprise strike is not OP vs DD if you considered that your system gives a boost to DD (-1 IPC, 1 AAA shot, A2 D2 on ship). And, as I suggested, DD still able to block Sub ability to escape or using stealth move 1 on 1.
Maybe you can have an opportunity to try such 2 hits AAA unit at 5 IPCs, since you were open to lower AAA cost to 4 IPCs?
@Baron:
@Baron:
Do not forget that AAA have no offensive capacity.
Infantry have a way to reach up to Att @2.
AAA have only defensive and fodder purpose and it is a high cost fodder at 5 IPCs.@Baron:
@Arthur:
The circumstance comes up almost every single game: a final raid on Moscow. Usually you know that the Germans have one or two rounds to do the attack and then have to return their planes to western Europe to defend against Allied invaders. Russia must choose how to spend their final 10-15 PUs. The choice might only change the outcome by a couple percentage points, but why not take the best odds.
IMO, a unit which is only good to purchase in this particular condition should be improve to be balanced vs other units specially Infantry, since it is THE fodder unit par excellence, and AAA are meant to be use as fodder too after the initial combat round, since they have no attack value.
Also, can we really compare 2 AAAs (10 IPCs) with 1 Fighter and the tactical possibility it can generate?I know it is not suppose to become a new idea thread (but I can refrain myself :-D), what do you think about this?
If we acknowledge that AAA is to figure defensive kind of weapons which need a lot of hard work to move from one place to another, hence it only moves during Non-Combat Move phase.
What if AAA becomes also a way to simulate defensive features and fortification?Anti-Aircraft Artillery
Attack: 0
Defense: 0 or 1 preemptive against up to 3 planes, which ever the lower.
Move: 1, NCM only
Hit point value: 2, no repair needed if it survives combat
Cost 5
This means that AAA can take a free hit the same way Battleship does (or 1914 Tank does).Do you believe people will want to buy a few more of them, more often?
Can it become a way to simulate an Atlantic Wall for Germany?
Can it become a more interesting fodder?
Hi Baron,
I’m having a small game this Sunday. We’ll probably just play the Pacific side of the map instead of Global. Should be a good opportunity to test your Sub idea. The land-based AAA will come into play some. I’ll give the 5 IPC version with up to 2 shots a try as well. I’ll post an AAR early next week so we can discuss.
Cheers!
Hi Baron,
I’m having a small game this Sunday. We’ll probably just play the Pacific side of the map instead of Global. Should be a good opportunity to test your Sub idea. The land-based AAA will come into play some. I’ll give the 5 IPC version with up to 2 shots a try as well. I’ll post an AAR early next week so we can discuss.
Cheers!
Cool. 8-)
Thanks and have fun.
I will read your report for sure.
Hi Baron. We had a very long 8-player game on Saturday. However, 2 of the players where 1st timers and this was only the 2nd time for all of us to play this revised rules set.
In the end, I didn’t want to through too many new variables. So, in short, I elected to not implement the submarine rules this time. However, I think it is a good rule. Subs vs Subs simply does not make sense in a WWII environment and I think the rules can easily be modified to reflect this.
Hi Baron. We had a very long 8-player game on Saturday. However, 2 of the players where 1st timers and this was only the 2nd time for all of us to play this revised rules set.
In the end, I didn’t want to through too many new variables. So, in short, I elected to not implement the submarine rules this time. However, I think it is a good rule. Subs vs Subs simply does not make sense in a WWII environment and I think the rules can easily be modified to reflect this.
Fine.
I’m just thinking about the special “4” roll to directly hit Carriers.
Since your game is more air oriented, why not simplify, KISS, this one to a “2” roll (CV gets A0 D2, 2 hits, OOB) but since DD is also in this category, you can protect them with fodder, or even with Cruiser, since it is a higher roll casualty “3”.
Also, to simplify unit interactions, if DD cost 7 and Sub 6, there is no need to require that a friendly DD be present to score some hits on Submarines. The OOB intent was to be sure to use DD as naval fodder and not just sub as cheapest fodder, since in your rules DD is far better than Sub.
Keep DD as Sub submerge blocker and it still works.
I’ve been really happy with giving ships @1 preemptive AA abilities. … and that is the ONLY way ships can hit airplanes.
During a ship’s normal combat rolls, their “big-gun” hits must be applied to other ships.
This lets you attack fleets with only air units and dish out some serious WWII-style dive-bomb/torpedo damage unless the defending fleet has air-cover. (which it should)
When planes are attacking with naval units, if defending planes score some hits, the attacker can still apply casualty to his naval units, right?
Vichy question: Since it may be possible that France does not fall on turn 1. And Allies may have moved units to other French territories, what happens to those units (Allied and French) and the control status of those territories where Allied units exist - would they go “Free French” and not Vichy?
Also, French Central Africa should go Allied Friendly Neutral.
@Baron. Correct! Defender my select an air or sea unit to be hit when the attack comes from a plane.
@Carolina. Haha! You caught that regarding C. Africa. :-D that is a KISS rule. It’s already hard enough to explain the Free French / Vichy French situation to new players. …. and C. Africa is kind of a remote area … so I just made it simple for playability.
Regarding not removing France on Turn 1. Wow … I haven’t given it much thought. Never been in a game where that happens. And unfortunately history can’t provide us with much info either. … I guess we could say that any French territories with Allied Units in them upon the fall of France become Free French instead of Vichy??? What do you think?
Vichy issue continued. Yes seems like there could be awkward situations; Does 1 UK inf keep a territory with a larger French force “Free”. Or would that 1 inf unit find themselves in an unenviable position of being caught in a hostile territory - what would they do? (Seems like they would want to get out!). But it would seem a large UK force would keep a French territory free.
Hi Carolina,
Been giving this a think. Why not just keep the rule “as is”? If any Allied Units are in any French territories after the fall of France they can do one of the following:
1) Use their next combat move to retreat from the now Vichy France territory.
2) Use their next combat move to fight the bastards. :)
hahaha.
This keeps the Vichy rule simple and probably fairly historically accurate for a “what if” scenario that didn’t really happen.
What do you think?
I’ve gotten some PM’s asking for a printable version of this rule set. I’ve modified the original post to include a link to the print-friendly Google Doc. Please let me know if you have any problems printing. Also, if any groups give these rules a shot, please post an AAR! Would love to analyze and continue to refine this set.
re: Vichy - I am making a separate posting for Vichy rules. Vichy is simple if France falls first turn - which should happen about 99.9% of the time. But it gets complicated fast if France is able to move and control other territories past the starting OOB.
THREE TURN PLAYING SYSTEM and ENHANCED COMBAT
Attacking Together Casualty Selection
Axis and Allied forces that attack together randomly select casualties for the same unit type. (For example, if there are 3 German and 2 Italian infantry and they decide that an infantry will be the 1st casualty, the Germans roll 3 dice and the Italians roll 2 dice. Whoever has the higher sum takes the casualty.) Any other “random” method may be used as well
Occupation may be pre-decided. However, if the attacking players cannot agree: Country with the largest army remaining at the end of the battle takes control of the occupied territory.
What about something which doesn’t need any additional roll?
The greatest number of units takes the casualties and when you reach equal number of units, each nation pick 1 unit at a time, starting with the other friendly units.
Example: 5 UK and 3 US Infantry, and must take 1 hit, so you loose 1 UK Inf.
Next combat round, 4 UK and 3 US, suppose 2 hits, UK loose 1 Inf, US loose 1 Inf.
Next combat round, 3 UK and 2 US, suppose 1 hit, UK loose Inf,
Next combat round, 2 UK and 2 US remain, players agree which is the first casualty, then pick alternatively.
OR
You pick casualty according to a rough ratio between attacking nations:
around 1:1, the largest number is picked first, the other second, alternatively,
if even, both players should agree about who take first casualy, then alternate,
around 2:1, the largest number is picked twice first, the other take 1 casualty, alternatively,
around 3:1, the largest number is picked three times before taking the other once,
around 4:1 and above, 4 units are picked on the largest group, then 1 unit of the other.
Since this ratio can change each combat round, you apply accordingly to the actual ratio.
Example: 5 UK and 3 US Infantry makes 1.67 ratio, and have to take 1 hit, so you loose 1 UK Inf.
Next combat round, 4 UK and 3 US, ratio is at 1.33, nearer 1:1, suppose 3 hits have to be chosen, UK lost 2 Inf, US 1 Inf.
Next combat round, 2 UK and 2 US remaining, still 1:1 ratio, players agree which is the first casualty, then pick alternatively.
No special roll required, so when rolling dice in game, it stays focus on combat.
IMO, it is simpler.
Hi Baron,
To be 100% honest … we just play with “Pre-Agreed” arrangement as to who will take control of the territory. Actually, I think this is how I’ll update the rules set, and leave a “random method” as a fall-back incase two players can’t agree.
Let’s look at this in history:
- Two, or more, friendly nations are going to know WELL in advance how the territory will be governed once the fighting stops. For instance, Italy didn’t help Germany in France thinking that there was a chance that Italy would gain that territory if their casualties were low and the German casualties were high!
In the games we’ve played, there is a strategic advantage as to “why” Player A is willing to attack a territory together with Player B … even though Player B will take control of the territory. … Therefore, it is in Player A’s best interest, even though he will not gain any IPCs as a result of the capture of the territory.
Narvik brought up an interesting suggestion for planes at sea. Here is the rule proposal:
Fighters and TAC’s may only COMBAT MOVE one sea-zone.
If based on land, they can only COMBAT MOVE into the sea-zone directly adjacent to, or surrounding their starting territory. After combat, they will have ONE movement point allowance remaining during the non-combat move phase.
If based on a carrier, they can COMBAT MOVE into a sea-zone or lande zone directly adjacent to the originating carrier sea-zone. After combat, they will have ONE movement point allowance remaining during the non-combat move phase.
Analysis
This rules set makes airplanes the true KINGS OF THE SEA. However, it also gives them their original range. Naval Combat is simulated on a much tighter time-scale than Land Combat. Each round of Naval Combat is probably simulating 12-24 hours. While each round of Land Combat is probably simulating 1-2 weeks. Therefore, it doesn’t make sense to have combat aircraft flying 2000+ miles over the open ocean and returning!
This range restriction would still allow airplanes to DOMINATE naval combat, but it would also make their historical ranges more realistic. Overall, I think it will be a better simulation for the game.
I would like people’s input and suggestions. However, please read the entire Rules Set first because there are a lot of inter-locking changes. This range rule could not be implemented with the OOB combat system. It would need to be implemented with this Enhanced Combat System in the original post.
Fighters could make London to Berlin - so rule seems too restrictive. Change the rule to be restricted to carrier based aircraft only. They can move 1 out and 1 back in combat mode. This allows attacks in adj sea zones or adj land territories. If doing a non-combat move only from carrier - allow the full 4.
