I was victorious. The UK’s navy was destroyed very early in the game, and my Japanese counterpart did very well. Moscow was taken!!!
German buys turn one
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@ncscswitch:
LOL, fair enough.
Though to be honest, I think the main “sticking point” was the definition of “merge”.
You appear to have been saying it was any linkage of 1 or more ships from both the Med and Baltic.
JSP and I seem to have been arguing a large number of ships making the link, sicne it really isn;t a fleet merge if it is only 2 ships.I think the main sticking point is that you are having two entirely different arguments.
One argument is about merging, and stopping the merge.
The other argument is about merging, and the COST of stopping the merge.
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My only response to that Paint is that… early in the game the Allies have cash to burn, the Axis does not.
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“Upon due consideration of the problem and all possible “options”, my original recommendation stands! Meeting adjourned!”
Channel Dash-Waste of a fleet, the UK & US airforces will make mince meat out of it before you can get to the med.
G2 fleet unification in SZ7-I have yet to have an opponent pull this off. As the allied player I can see it coming and no allied player worth his salt would allow it (IMHO) and it is easily countered.
G1 buy with belo/WR opening no bid. Baltic CV, 3art, 4inf (this is 1 less unit than the 8inf buy but increase your offensive punch from 8 to 13).
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I’d pay money to see Jen in a bikini tho.
Its in her avatar.
You owe each of us $20.
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We all know that’s fake and that “Jenn” is prolly a 56-year old plumber from Jersey named “Hank” who we’d pay money NOT to see in a bikini.
Oops, off topic.
How’s this for a G1 buy: 8 AA guns. Watch out byotches!
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@froodster:
How’s this for a G1 buy: 8 AA guns. Watch out byotches!
why not 8 tanks? coud this be viable for the germans to do? also what do you think of 4 figs.
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I said 8 AAs because it’s about the only combination that has not been suggested.
I often fantasize about an all-fighter build but usually chicken out. I prefer to build up the luftwaffe slowly, a Ftr every other turn or so. But 4 right off the bat would be interesting, you could really threaten Allied shipping. Might be an effective way to keep the US away from Algeria. But it would be better with an IC in WE, then you’d have the Ftrs in range right away.
How’s this though: 2 Bombers 1 Ftr. That DOES menace any attempt to land in Algeria early on, esp. if the Med fleet moves west. I’d try that for a kick. My guess is you’d see the Allies buy a few more AAs.
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2 figs and 2 trns and a amr or inf(depending on the bid). talk about scaring the UK.
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At the risk of whipping a dead animal of the equine flavor, I would like to address the German fleet unification issue as well as put my $0.02 in on the “channel dash” option. I am making the distinction because the “channel dash” is moving the baltic fleet toward the Med on G1 and unifying the German fleet in sz7 is not.
First, the Allies don’t have to prevent the German fleets from combining in sz7. As far as I’m concerned, it is in their best interest to let Germany do it to prevent an uneven loss of IPC’s in Germany’s favor. Blocking them on UK1 is much more costly to the Allies should Germany attack the UK fleet. The simple block comes in UK2.
All of this assumes that the bid is 1 arm or 2 inf in Lib, the German sub isn’t lost against the UK BB in sz13, and Russia didn’t kill the Ukr fig.
UK should purchase 1 CV, 1 arm, 3 inf and place the CV in sz8 and move all of their fleet to sz8 as well, landing the E Can arm in UK on the way. The bomber can be used to retake Egypt since it is likely that there will only be 1 or 2 German units remaining. The UK DD in sz15 will move to sz14 to prevent the German Med fleet from turning back to help in an Egypt attack on G2.
US should purchase 1 CV, 2 TP, 2 arm and transport 2 inf, 1 art, 1 arm to sz8 unloading in UK. Land the W US fig on the UK CV. move 2 inf from C US to E US, and move the E US bmb/fig to UK.
Russia will move the SS to sz8 on R2.
If Germany attacks the sz8 fleet (1 CV, 1 fig, 1 BB, 1 DD, 1 SS, 4 TP) with the Med fleet and aircraft (1 BB, 1 SS, 1 TP, 6 fig, 1 bmb) it will cost them half their airforce and leave the BB isolated. With the Russians bearing down on them losing a bunch of fighters will be devastating to Germany.
Attacking UK is also a bad idea. 1 BB, 5 inf, 5 arm, 6 fig, 1 bmb vs. 7 inf, 2 art, 4 arm, 3 fig, 1 bmb, 1 AA is approximately a 35%-40% win.
At that point, unifying the fleet is useless because Germany’s navy will be hopelessly outclassed with the addition of the US CV, DD, 2 TP from sz10, the Hawaiian fig, and whatever navy the UK buys in UK2. London will also be safe with the extra 2 inf, 2 arm the US lands on US2.
The block of the German fleet comes from moving the UK DD from sz14 to sz12 which will prevent a German landing in E Can or Brazil. Even if Germany manages to kill the DD without a loss in G2 and combines their fleet in sz7 the UK can place a SS in sz7 to prevent the German TP’s from loading and still have 19-22 IPC’s(+/- India income) to build more navy in sz8.
Seems a little risky for Germany even with maximum forces available let alone if they lose the Ukr fighter or a sub. I wouldn’t try it but if you can make it work, more power to you.
The Channel Dash move, in my opinion, requires a bid in Lib and a naval purchase in the Med. My preference is a CV/TP. If you can get away with it, the SS from sz8 should be combined with the baltic fleet in sz7 instead of helping attack the BB in sz13 but that depends on how many fighters will be needed in Europe on G1. The goal is to have 2-3 fig in WE, 2 fig on the CV, and 1 fig, 1 bmb in Lib after Non-com. It allows for massive attack pressure on sz12 if the Allies land in Algeria and all fighters available for attack in Europe if they don’t.
If the Uk attacks sz7 with air only, you have the option of submerging the subs or fighting it out depending on how many hits the UK scores in round 1. And if they attack with the BB and TP’s, as well, you probably will kill at least a TP on round 1 and submerging the subs will give you an attack force of 1-3 SS, 5-6 fighters, and 1 bmb against whatever is left, plus UK builds, on G2. I don’t mind losing some fighters in that counterattack because the door to Africa will be wide open and the UK has a lot of rebuilding to do before you would see UK ground units in Europe.
Another benefit is that by forcing an attack on sz7 instead of sz5, the UK bomber can’t reach Sink to threaten unprotected Japanese TP’s in sz60/61. A rarely used move but it’s a real pain in the ass to Japan.
Lastly, the CV/TP in the Med is a safety valve. In case the attack on Egypt goes horribly wrong, you aren’t necessarily dead in Africa. Even if the Egyptian fighter survives, an attack on the CV fleet by 1 bmb, 2 fig, 1 DD is only a 50/50 battle. And if the UK should reinforce Egypt and load up in sz15 instead, Germany has enough available forces to destroy both with likely an acceptable amount of losses. Either way, you still have access to Africa and the UK will be basically defanged in Asia and the Pacific. Japan should be happy about that.
So far the Channel Dash has served me well enough to abandon the CV build in the baltic but it’s still a work in progress so I can’t assume it’s viable.
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I like it. U-505s plan, that is.
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I have to say I disagree with U505 on several points, but the only ones I’ll mention specifically are economics and the German airforce.
I disagree that the $ trade favors the Axis with a preemptive strike. The boats are a sunk cost; they are there to suicide the Allies or board UK immediately. There is no point talking about them like a long term asset. If you can sink a few transports when they die, you’re pretty happy.
The Germans also have the option of pulling back from a naval assault. And why would you ever leave a lone btl instead of saving German planes?
Any time the UK buys a carrier R1 I’m happy as an Axis player. I would consider the unification threat forcing that buy to be an immediate benefit to my game.
Why is that? Because if the carrier is a defensive purchase, you don’t need it until R2. You would be better served building tra in Z02 R1, then moving up and landing troops R2 and building the carrier in your drop off zone.
Peace
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If you dash for SZ7 with the extra sub, You’re more likely to have 2-3 subs survive a UK attack. With the Med BB and TRN off Gibraltar and a bunch of Luftwaffe in WE / Libya, SZ 7 and SZ 12 become pretty inhospitable to the allies. In my tourney game against Sime I found control of the Mediterranean pretty key to my Axis victory.
As has been pointed out, the Baltic fleet is dead meat. With U-505’s plan you could end up with a Med fleet of 3 Subs 1 AC 1 BB 2 TRN. As has been said though, it has to be tested against a skilled opponent to see how it really works.
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Sorry U-505, but I have to disagree with you on the “Channel Dash”. It’s doubtful that you would make it to the med with just the Baltic Fleet, the addition of the sz8 sub still makes it an iffy proposition. If you do make it to the Med it’s likely you’d do so with 1SS. That sub could have went to the med anyway with the BB, TP attack on sz13. All you have accomplished is the destruction of the Baltic fleet, and you’ve left your Northern flank exposed.
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Purpose of ther Baltic Fleet:
Take out as many Allied units as possible as it dies.That is it folks. Trying for anything else is a waste of resources for Germany
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I’d like to try hashing this out - we can play to the end of round 2 or 3, just to see how it works out in terms of fleet unification. I’ll take a bid of 7 to Libya, and I assume the Allies will post Russia 1 as if you had no clue of what Germany would be doing.
JSP? Any other takers? I’m not out to prove anything, I just want to play it out and see what happens.
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Just read the CSub paper on this - it suggests building two or three transports in the baltic as the best German naval option. It sounds sensible as do most strategies when I read them, and now it seems better than U-505s plan. The transports create a lot of options for Germany which it can take advantage of if the unification is blocked.
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@froodster:
I’d like to try hashing this out - we can play to the end of round 2 or 3, just to see how it works out in terms of fleet unification. I’ll take a bid of 7 to Libya, and I assume the Allies will post Russia 1 as if you had no clue of what Germany would be doing.
JSP? Any other takers? I’m not out to prove anything, I just want to play it out and see what happens.
Sure, I think this needs to be fleshed out in a real game. Give me a couple of days to wind down my current games. The strategy is based on no bid with a Russian Belo/WR open.
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My bad. I was assuming a CV, 3 TP buy which is what I believe was mentioned earlier in the thread and not just 3 TP. In that case, I would buy 1 CV, 1 fig, 1 inf for the UK and put the Russian SS in sz12 to keep the Med fleet from participating in a UK landing. Either way, I still prefer that the German fleet be allowed to unify for nothing while I build up the overwhelming Allied force to oppose it.
And a German buy of 3 TP’s in the Baltic makes me happy as the Allies. We can both be dismissive of each others purchases that way. I like the CV UK1 because it extends my fighter range to sz13 just for fun. Unifying the German fleets means Africa is lost for good. I can accept that.
Actually, I believe we are looking at this from 2 slightly different perspectives, Crazystraw. I am playing for the long term and you are playing for the short term because of the FTF Tournament time limits. We have to make that distinction to everyone because it can be relevant. My strategy can be a little slower and more plodding because I don’t suffer from a time window.
Et Tu, jsp. My tourney partner. The wound cuts deep. Â :lol:
The likely result is 2 SS making it to the Med. But that isn’t necessarily the point. I’m not afraid of losing the Baltic fleet. I can just turn back and hit Egypt. However, with the addition of the sz8 SS it makes an air only attack a 50/50 shot. I get to see the attacking results before I defend so I can choose my options. And how often will the UK score only 1 hit or goose egg the 1st round? Maybe 1/3th of the time. 1 bmb, 1 fig vs 1 DD, 1 TP, 2 SS looks real ulgy for the UK and, at that point, he’s committed to that battle because letting me sail into the Med with that group is bad juju for the Allies. I guarantee you that every UK player is going to cringe when the first round is rolled. I’ll take the 40% win rate for that battle and even the 50% cleared result. It won’t bother me nearly as much as it would bother the UK player.
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@froodster:
I’d like to try hashing this out - we can play to the end of round 2 or 3, just to see how it works out in terms of fleet unification. I’ll take a bid of 7 to Libya, and I assume the Allies will post Russia 1 as if you had no clue of what Germany would be doing.
JSP? Any other takers? I’m not out to prove anything, I just want to play it out and see what happens.
Sure, I think this needs to be fleshed out in a real game. Give me a couple of days to wind down my current games. The strategy is based on no bid with a Russian Belo/WR open.
I don’t know if I’d try it without a bid. The CSub strategy IS based on an African bid. Without a bid I need the Med BB to clear the way for a TRN to attack Egypt, which means it is not in range to unite in SZ 12, and that means the SZ 8 sub is needed to take the hit from the UK BB in SZ 13, and the whole thing falls apart.
I don’t know what to think anymore. Either channel dash to SZ 7 right away, or build 2-3 Baltic TRNs first (which will get Inf to Karelia with a quickness) and unite in G2 if favourable, if not then just maintain separate fleets.
Now I don’t know what I want to test anymore…
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@froodster:
Just read the CSub paper on this - it suggests building two or three transports in the baltic as the best German naval option. It sounds sensible as do most strategies when I read them, and now it seems better than U-505s plan. The transports create a lot of options for Germany which it can take advantage of if the unification is blocked.
I like the TRANs in the Baltic. I read the paper (and made sure the Allied players did also) then built the TRANs on G1. It kept the Baltic in the hands of the German fleet, kept Norway as a traded space into G4, kept Karelia reinforced and when the UK player got distracted by Africa gave me the means to do SeaLion with a fleet that he had forgotten to be worried about.
I also find the ongoing debate about the Med interesting.
We don’t play with bids. None.
As Germany, I normally take Gibraltar and Anglo-Egypt on G1.
Against the UK BB, I send 1 BB, 1 SS, 1 TRAN(INF,ARM), 2 FTR. I take losses to damage the BB, sink the SS and lose FTR before I lose the TRAN. Taking GIB is important and that INF and ARM are part of the G2 taking back Algeria.
Against Anglo-Egypt, I sent 1 INF, 1 ARM, 2 FTR, 1 BMB. I take losses on INF, and then FTR. The ARM has to survive to take AE.This seals the Med for G1.
When the US hits (empty) Algeria, the BB and TRAN along with the INF and ART take it back. With a little preplanning, the 2 SS from the BAL were moved to SZ7 on G1 and they can come down to SZ 12. If that is the case the BB and the TRAN come to SZ12 also along with 2 FTR. Now the US fleet is dead and the US is out of Africa.
If the UK wants to fight for AE with their ground forces, it will see-saw back and forth a bit. If the UK sends their CV, Japan gets orgasmic since they can go a-hunting a UK flattop. More frequently, the UK player is more concerned about trying to keep India or reinforcing the Caucus to get cute in Africa.This sequence give Germany access to the Africa for several turns before US/UK get back on their game. The UK is nervous about that Baltic Fleet. The US is hearing the non-stop whine from the USSR about how he needs Murmansk convoyes now.
The down side to this is 4 FTRs to the Med for G1 and G2. Odds are 1 or 2 are lost in order to keep ground forces in Africa alive. This makes things nervous on the Eastern Front.
The answer is the “draw play”. Let the Russians come. Germany is picking up Africa territories as fast as or faster than the USSR is eating up land on the Eastern Front and every step closer to Berlin they get the further they are from Moscow and the Japanese Army. Germany controls the Baltic and the Med and has TRANs in both. Russia has to defend her flanks or risk an unpleasant surprise amphib landing behind the front. Finally when Russia does get too close, it is amazing how many INF and ART you can buy with 40+ IPC. Now the USSR has the long supply lines, a threat from the East and no quick way to move their forces back to defend against Japan.
I find this plays nicely against the KGF, especially with an overly agressive USSR player. Germany collapses the UK economy by occuping Africa and hold the US at bay by sinking anything that even looks like it might carry men. Russia rushed toward Berlin only to discover that by leaving Japan unoccupied, they are losing land and IPC as fast as they gain it and the Russian horde is in Warsaw when the Japanese come calling on Moscow. When Moscow falls, the game is over. London is next and then the US has to decide if they like beer or raw fish better.
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