I was hoping you’d post these!
Adding value to naval bases
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Hi YG,
The base not only represents Costal Guns. It also represents mines, torpedo boats and all of the other support and defensive equipment that would accompany a Naval Base.
This is what I’m leaning towards…
During an amphibious assault on territories with an operational naval base, the defender may roll up to 3@1 (per attacking unit same as AA artillery) and may target all ships including loaded transports, and/or submarines as well as all attacking air units on both land or sea. These rolls are made once after sea combat, but before landings, and they do not negate shore bombardments from attacking ships.
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Or this…
Coastal Defense System
Each operational naval base may defend 1@1 each combat round in both sea and land combat during an amphibious assault. There most be at least 1 defending surface warship, or scrambling air unit to defend during the sea battle, and there must be at least 1 defending land unit to defend during the landing.
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Now, if I had to play by those House Rules I would have been slightly disturbed if a Port unit was put on the Battleboard and fired in every round. Not even AA guns fire in every round, and I know there are attacking aircrafts in every round. After the first round, all coastal guns and blockhouses should have been by passed. Or do you claim that the German Coastal Guns in Normandy still fired at Allied units in St. Vith or Falaise after 3 months of combat ?
I think, IMHO, that rules for facilities like Ports and Airbases, should be as streamlined as possible, to keep the rules simple and playable. Not every casual player you meet is a history buff or have served 5 years in the military. They are not even skilled or brilliant, but play just for fun, or the love of plastic miniatures.
All facilities got inherent AA guns that roll preemptive against aircrafts. Lets keep it that way.
Most major Naval Bases also had close area protection, like sea mines, torpedo boats and coastal guns. This was true to Pearl Harbor, Taranto, Corregidor, Singapore, Sevastopol, Gallippolly, and all ports in Normandy, like Cherbourg, Le Havre, Dieppe and so on. And this is the reason the attackers used waves of air strikes before they launched the amphibious attack. An operational Naval Base should have a strong defense, maybe preemptive since its hard to stay fighting after your ship is hit by a mine or torpedo. But of course there are just so many mines, torpedoes and shells.
So my suggestion is, a Naval Base can roll preemptive up to 3 dice, with 2 or less as hit, against invading land units. Against 1 infantry, the NB roll one dice. Against 3 infantry, the NB roll 3 dice. Against a stack of 20 land units, the NB still roll 3 dice. And the NB should not need a friendly infantry to do this, like YG suggest, because the coastal guns, AA guns, barbed wire, minefields and blockhouses are operated by a garrison that comes with the NB, and not by some visiting Panzer Division that happened to be in the area.
I don’t know how much the NB can participate in a navel battle. Before an invasion, the naval battle usually take place far away from the range of coastal guns and torpedo boats. But some times the fleet is at port, like in Pearl Harbor and Taranto, protected by the facilities coastal guns, minefields and torpedo boats. That why the attacker used air strikes in that cases.
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 Naval bases must be KO’d (3 damage markers) before the land portion of an amphibious assault can begin.  Naval bases with no accompanying sea units must still be KO’d before the land portion of an amphibious assault can begin.
I strongly disagree on this. It was actually very rare that the Port was knocked out before the invasion started. But, in the cases where the Port was knocked out, the attackers could walk ashore as if they were on holiday. But attacking against undamaged Ports, and you got lots of casualties. My point is, its the Players choice to attack or not, not the Rules. In the real world, the Generals don’t have any Rulebooks that says its not allowed to attack unless this or that is done. They attack anyway.
Look at the Dieppe Raid, there were no preemptive shore bombardment nor Air Strikes, just a suicidal charge by Canadian infantry supported by some Churchill Tanks, and they all died. With your rules, the Dieppe Raid was illegal and not allowed to do.
With your rules, even the Normandy landings would have been an illegal move, since the shore bombardment and aircrafts bombing were not able to knock out the German Blockhouses before the amphibious assault started. Omaha beach talk by itself.
And I could go on and on.
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Naval Bases have ONE purpose: Â EXTEND THE RANGE OF YOUR FLEETS, period.
- Â A surface ship may not go more than THREE turns without ending movement in sea-zone with a friendly operational Naval Base
This is historical correct and I partly agree, but…… it looks like a pain to keep track of.
Also, since an A&A game turn is supposed to be between 3 and 6 months, the ships should only be allowed to go from Port to Port, and not stop at the middle of an ocean, and this will of course ruin the game as we know it.
My suggestion is, an operational Port boost your move 1 space, both in combat move and non combat move. This is OOB.
Also, if you are headed to a friendly operational Port in non combat move, that arrival Port should boost you 1 extra move too.
Ships move 2 only, when sailing from here to there.
But, you can sail 4 spaces in non combat between 2 operational Ports. I think that makes sense and are playable too
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Naval Bases : 2@1 AA shots at planes. !st round only.
2@1 AA shots at ships. 1st round only.Defender chooses one or the other only.
2@1 against any ground troops for 1st round only.
Defender has to have at least 1 inf with naval base.
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Hello Narvik and YG,
@Naval Bases Firing: These are all great points that both Narvik and YG made. In my first post I was just floating some balloons regarding this. Looking at the posts, as both of you suggested, I would propose that a NB can have UP TO 3x@1 hits that are preemptive. One dice is removed with each damage marker that the NB has before combat begins as a result of bombing raids. Narvik, I am thinking of Naval Bases as somewhat abstracted. They not only represent the port, but they also include a general array of coastal defensive measures like you mentioned. Therefore, as in history, it would be in the interest of the attacker to use a series of bombing raids against Coastal Fortifications (represented by a Naval Base) before the amphibious assault part of the invasion begins. …. What do you think? Up to 3 x @1? … and each damage marker from bombings would remove 1 dice.
**@Naval Bases and Fleets: ** YG. I am going to make my case again for having the bases go hand-in-hand with the fleets. In the OOB rules, a Naval Base gives a bonus to ship movement. But it is just kind of a nice bonus … it really doesn’t have too much strategic significance. Lets face it, either the Japanese or the US forces could come to dominate the Pacific without really paying too much attention to who has what Naval Base and where. … They are just kind of there to repair the occasional BB or CV. Nice … but not necessary.
By having Fleets reduce their movement to ONE SPACE after their 3rd turn away from a Naval Base, you suddenly make Naval Bases IMPORTANT. Please take a moment and look at your G40 map. Look now at the Carolina Islands. Japan NEEDS that Naval Base! Also, if Japan wants to hit Australia, they NEED to put a Naval Base in New Guinea. … The same now works in reverse. USA must take the Naval Base in the Carolina Islands and use it as a spring-board for both keeping Australia in the game and hitting Japan where it hurts in the money-islands.
On the Atlantic side … look how important Gibraltar suddenly is!! That Naval Base is integral for launching any kind of a significant operation into North Africa.
This is a game-changer!! This adds an entire new strategic layer to the game and enhances historical reality.
It would be pretty easy to keep track of. It would just use a different color chip, (maybe Pink … or even the OOB Green ones if you just use the Grey and Red for unit stacks). Or, a specific color dice could also be used.
After the None-Combat Moves, maybe during the Convoy Raiding Step. … Just place a chip in each sea-zone where you have a ship(s) not adjacent to a NB.
Then, in your next turn, all ships with a stack of 3 chips can only move 1 space. Once the stack hits 3 chips, it is no longer necessary to add more.
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Another Balloon to float. Maybe the rule should read: At the start of each turn, all surface ships must return to within 3 spaces away from a friendly operable NB?? This would be at the START of each turn. Therefore, if a ship is more than 3 spaces away at the beginning, they must return to the NB range. If the ship is within base range at the beginning of the turn, they can move out of range and strike …. They will have to move back into range at the beginning of their next turn though.
This gives historical added value to the Naval Bases and makes them strategically important. It also does not add complications to gameplay.
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I’m worried that the suggestions here added with a 3 plane scramble will overpower the attacker.
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Well … It should be a tough nut to crack! :-D
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If 1 to 3 planes scramble then the Naval Base doesn’t get any AA shots.
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I think to make it simple…
3@1 defence during amphibious assaults to be rolled after a sea battle, but before the landing. The attacker may remove any participating land, sea, or air units as a causality resulting from this naval base coastal defence system.
This 3@1 should help represent AA capabilities, costal guns, mines, and shore obsticals.
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I like that YG. I would just consider adding the text “up to” in front of the 3@1. This way, attacker can opt to soften up the defenses with bombing raids. Each damage marker removes 1 dice.
Also, as for the real reason for even having Naval Bases. What do you think about the revised range idea? If a surface ship starts their turn more than three spaces away from a friendly operable NB, it must move within range of one. …. This allows Strikes of up to five spaces away and substainded operations within three spaces away. … Bases now embark operating range to fleets.
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I think that would make for some serious limitations to German Subs
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“Surface Ships”. :wink:
[Edit]. Subs can go and see the lights of New York, or enjoy the warm waters of the Caribbean Sea. …. Japanese subs can prowl the Panama canal or peak at the sights of San Francisco … Or maybe even take a trip to Madagascar. :)
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I like the limits for naval bases with damage…
Operational naval bases receive up to 3@1 defence during amphibious assaults to be rolled after a sea battle, but before the landing. The defender must remove a 1@1 defense roll per damage marker on the naval base, therefore, 3 or more damage would negate all 3 rolls. The attacker may remove any participating land, sea, or air units as a causality resulting from this naval base coastal defence system.
I don’t like the movement ability, I think it has the potential for a lot of “that’s an unfair rule, well dems da rules” type of conversations. Plus, many ships sail around the board all game never once parking at a naval base, so the fuel and supplies angle is abstract at best.
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Ok. I know it would have a profound change in the game on the Strat level. … But it wouldn’t just be a rule for the sake of having a rule. It would better model the game within the existing rules … I think.
Japan tried to take Midway and the Allutien Islands with the idea of using them as a Naval and Air bases for later taking Hawaii and parts of Alaska … Then, if things went well, they could use Alaska and Hawaii to threaten the West Coast.
It’s a “Step by Step”, Island hoping approach. … More of a realistic simulation than simply loading a bunch of transports in LA and moving directly into Japan … Or vice-versa.
And … More than anything … It definitely complies with Adding Value to Naval Bases.
Chew it over. I am hosting a game on Saturday and was just planning to implement the new “3-Turn” set of rules … But I think I’m going to also include this Naval Base rule … Definitely the Up To 3@1 part … But I would like to also make Naval Bases more historically accurate and fulfill their role as a hand-in-hand necessity for Naval Fleets
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Actually, I’m gonna remove the damage limits to just operational. Reason being it is to wordy, 3 plane scrambles don’t have the same limits, and it’s only 3@1 with attacker choosing pretty much anything as a casualty.
Each operational naval base will receive 3@1 defense rolls during an amphibious assault to be made after a sea battle, but before the landing. Due to the nature of these defense rolls (AA guns, coastal guns, mines, and shore obstacles), the attacker may remove any participating land, sea, and/or air units as causalities.
@Jetset
Can you explain the movement idea to me again using as few sentences as possible?… thanks. -
@ Naval Base Defense Rolls: I like that YG. It keeps it more simple. Operational, 3@1. Non-Operational, 0 rolls. Rolls are made after Naval portion of Amphibious Assault and Preemptive to the Land-Portion. Attacker can select, air, land or sea units for casualties.
@ Naval Base Purpose: … Programing Language Style
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Surface Ships (ie… Anything except Subs) have an operating range. Range is provided by Friendly Operational Naval Bases.
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Naval Base Range is 3 Sea Zones.
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If a Surface Ship starts their turn inside the range of a Naval Base, it may still move 2 spaces and conduct a strike or patrol OUTSIDE of the Naval Base range. … This would result in the ship being up to 5 spaces from the Naval Base at the end of the turn.
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If a Surface Ship starts their turn >3 Sea Zones from Friendly, Operational Naval Base, it must attempt to get back into the Naval Base Range. (i.e. All movements must be in the direction of an Operational Naval Base on that turn)
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Therefore: –-> Sustained Patrols may be conducted for an unlimited amount of turns within 3 sea zones of a Naval Base.
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And Also: –-> Strikes, or Probes, may be conducted up to 5 sea zones away from a Naval Base.
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**@ Naval Base Defense Rolls:** I like that YG. It keeps it more simple. Operational, 3@1. Non-Operational, 0 rolls. Rolls are made after Naval portion of Amphibious Assault and Preemptive to the Land-Portion. Attacker can select, air, land or sea units for casualties.
**@ Naval Base Purpose: … Programing Language Style**Â
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Surface Ships (ie… Anything except Subs) have an operating range. Range is provided by Friendly Operational Naval Bases.
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Naval Base Range is 3 Sea Zones.
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If a Surface Ship starts their turn inside the range of a Naval Base, it may still move 2 spaces and conduct a strike or patrol OUTSIDE of the Naval Base range. … This would result in the ship being up to 5 spaces from the Naval Base at the end of the turn.
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If a Surface Ship starts their turn >3 Sea Zones from Friendly, Operational Naval Base, it must attempt to get back into the Naval Base Range. (i.e. All movements must be in the direction of an Operational Naval Base on that turn)
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Therefore:Â –->Â Â Sustained Patrols may be conducted for an unlimited amount of turns within 3 sea zones of a Naval Base.
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And Also: –->Â Â Strikes, or Probes, may be conducted up to 5 sea zones away from a Naval Base.
Sorry, I’m still confused, ships can move 3 from a base, than an additional 2 within the same turn?
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