I think a good idea for 1914 would be to require at least 1 infantry to be stationed in every territory by the end of a power’s turn (the infantry must be from the power controlling. If they don’t, they won’t get the IPCs from this territory. Not only does it potentially make the game more historically accurate (to symbolize the need to keep civilian populations under control during wartime), but it probably also makes the game more balanced, as the Allies will probably be more burdened with this (since they have substantially larger colonial possessions).
Clearing the Dark Skies
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Hey BM, sorry I haven’t read through your posts before throwing out another idea, but how about this…
Strategic Bombers
Cost - 12 IPCs
Move - 6 (+1 from OAB)
Attack @3
Defend @2(Basically everything the same but drop the attack value from @4 to @3, and boost their defence value from @1 to @2)
This might also solve the cruiser issue by putting the bombers attack value on par with cruisers which cost the same, specialties for bombers would still be SBR, and specialties for cruisers would still be shore bombardment.
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I like it too.
A3 D2 with no combined arms is simpler.
I truly believe StB should have a basic 3 attack because of the long range capacity.It helps also when compared with Cruiser.
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@Baron:
I like it too.
A3 D2 with no combined arms is simpler.
I truly believe StB should have a basic 3 attack because of the long range capacity.It helps also when compared with Cruiser.
I prefer simple
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However,
I still would upgrade Tactical Bomber attack to 4 pure and simple.
TcB
Attack 4
Defense 3
Move 4-5
Cost 11 IPCs or 12 IPCs.
SBR A1 Damage 1D6 IPCs. -
@SS:
I agree. We have had a few discussions about the Bombers attack values.
Str Bomber - A3 against all ships every round
SBR 1 D6+2Str Bomber - A2 against all ships every round
SBR 1 D6+2Str Bomber - A3 against all ships every round
SBR 1 D 6+2
AA 1D10 A2 at Str Bombers only due to size and speed.I’ve have also used D8’s A2 for AA shots at all planes in a game. Was a bit strong.
Do you imply that it stay @4 in land combat?
StBs seems historically not that good against ground troops neither.
Maybe A2 D1 with lower cost but higher damage in SBR would appear more accurate? -
Baron yes. Ground attacks by Str Bombers should be lower values to. I was just responding to the naval.
I’m just trying to keep it simple with only 1 or 2 changes.
Str Bombers - A4 against naval
A3 D1 against ground
SBR 1D6+2
Battleships and Cruisers 1 AA shot each with a cap on AA shotsStr Bombers - A3 against naval
A3 D1 against ground
SBR 1D6+2
AA 1D10 A2 only against Str Bombers. -
Re: the SS post on a D1 or D2 on naval…. When would a Str Bomber defend against naval fire? They don’t scramble. Right?
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I removed the Str Bomber Defense value.
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Its interesting that such a change on bombers has started so much discussion. The classic game was A4/D1 cost 15. I wonder why the cost was dropped to 12? At price of 12 they are too potent. I would agree the values should be changed to A3/D2. I just cannot get around the fact that Str Bombers were just not effective against moving targets - land, air, or sea.
I see 3 things that could be done;
A4/D1 cost 15
or A3/D2 cost 12
or A4/D1 cost 12, hits cannot be applied to Fighters or Tac Bombers.It all cases, BB and CA should get a AA roll.
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Then make it
A3 D1 M6 C15 but no Battleship or Cruiser AA shot
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Actually going to play-test with A3-4/D1/C12. Gets the same air superiority bonus as tactical.
So without long-range fighter support they are reduced in attack.
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@Baron:
However,
I still would upgrade Tactical Bomber attack to 4 pure and simple.
TcB
Attack 4
Defense 3
Move 4-5
Cost 11 IPCs or 12 IPCs.
SBR A1 Damage 1D6 IPCs.If they get the @4 attack outright, I would make them 12 IPCs.
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@Carolina:
Actually going to play-test with A3-4/D1/C12. Gets the same air superiority bonus as tactical.
So without long-range fighter support they are reduced in attack.
Let us know how your G40 Dark Skies evolves with this reduced attack factor.
With OOB TacB, your game will be different than Barney play-test and XML file.I anticipate more Fighters purchase to increase both units attack factor.
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@Young:
@Baron:
However,
I still would upgrade Tactical Bomber attack to 4 pure and simple.
TcB
Attack 4
Defense 3
Move 4-5
Cost 11 IPCs or 12 IPCs.
SBR A1 Damage 1D6 IPCs.If they get the @4 attack outright, I would make them 12 IPCs.o
Fine.
I suppose TacB keeps A1 in TBR and 1D6 damage on NB and AB.
Its attack factor is better than StB (1@1 for whole group),
so I believe 12 IPCs is a fair price.
And you keep an iconic A4 bomber unit.
Just not the traditional StB but the new bomber plane for the big game which is global.Did you ever play first edition Global?
Was Dark Skies a strategy then? -
Why is dark skies that devastating that we need to consider changing the rules to combat it?
On a slightly related note, there is a case to be made that interception is too weak and it would be fairer if fighters or all planes rolled at a two.
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Why is dark skies that devastating that we need to consider changing the rules to combat it?
On a slightly related note, there is a case to be made that interception is too weak and it would be fairer if fighters or all planes rolled at a two.
Follow this link to Mr Roboto post:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=37418.msg1507982#msg1507982YG idea is to weakened StB dogfight capacity.
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@Baron:
@Young:
@Baron:
However,
I still would upgrade Tactical Bomber attack to 4 pure and simple.
TcB
Attack 4
Defense 3
Move 4-5
Cost 11 IPCs or 12 IPCs.
SBR A1 Damage 1D6 IPCs.If they get the @4 attack outright, I would make them 12 IPCs.o
Fine.
I suppose TacB keeps A1 in TBR and 1D6 damage on NB and AB.
Its attack factor is better than StB (1@1 for whole group),
so I believe 12 IPCs is a fair price.
And you keep an iconic A4 bomber unit.
Just not the traditional StB but the new bomber plane for the big game which is global.Did you ever play first edition Global?
Was Dark Skies a strategy then?I played a lot of 1st edition, back then Sealion was the thing to do because it was easier to pull off and with the London NO, more profitable. Dark Skies is relatively new based on the statistical capabilities, strategic diversity, and cost comparison of Strategic Bombers to other units. I’ve never heard of such binge buying of one unit like this before.
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@Baron:
Follow this link to Mr Roboto post:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=37418.msg1507982#msg1507982YG idea is to weakened StB dogfight capacity.
I understand the idea, but I haven’t played with or against it. I just don’t see it becoming as devastating as what people are saying.
BTW, to threaten Gibraltar you have to start closer than WGermany don’t you?
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@Baron:
Follow this link to Mr Roboto post:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=37418.msg1507982#msg1507982YG idea is to weakened StB dogfight capacity.
I understand the idea, but I haven’t played with or against it. I just don’t see it becoming as devastating as what people are saying.
BTW, to threaten Gibraltar you have to start closer than WGermany don’t you?
No you don’t. From West Germany you can hit 91 and land in either Normandy or Southern France.
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@Baron:
Hi everyone,
here is a few datas and summary collected after a lot of calculations and messed up tables, here is a real discovery to help any discussion over benefits and disadvantage of various SBR values. Hope you will find interesting numbers to provides some reasons behind intuitive conclusions on SBRs.I found a useful analysis tool to compare average results of various SBR combat values and cost per unit:
Break even point and ratio:
In Strategic Bombing Raid, it is the number of attacking aircraft unit needed compared to intercepting Fg to get even odds on both sides (+0.00 IPC damage/SBR).
Break even ratio is a fraction number of Strategic bomber over a single intercepting fighter to reach an even odds of winning or loosing IPCs in a single air raid compared to the defender odds of inflicting damage. A ratio above 1 means that you need more than only 1 Bomber against 1 intercepting Fighter to reach a profitable threshold in SBR; while a ratio below 1 means that making a raid with at least 1 bomber against 1 Fighter interceptor is always advantageous for the attacker.Offensive over defensive cost ratio for same combat values : it is a useful measure to evaluate the comparative higher cost of a given attack value over the same defensive value.
For instance, Tank gives a 1.00 offensive/defensive cost ratio because attack 3 and defense 3 is the same cost at 6 IPCs.
3 air attack over 3 ground defense cost gives Fg A3 C10 vs Tank D3 C6 = 1.67 off/defense IPC ratio.
4 air attack over 4 air defense cost gives StB A4 C12 vs Fg D4 C10 = 1.20 off/def IPC ratio.
2 artillery ground attack over 2 Infantry ground defense gives Art A2 C4 vs Inf D2 C3 = 1.33 off/def cost ratio.
2+2 ground attack over 2+2 ground defense gives Inf+Art A2+A2 C7 vs 2 Inf D2+D2 C6 = 1.17 off/def ratio.
So, this offense/defense cost ratio for the same value goes from 1 to up to 1.67 in regular combat.Here is a very comprehensive table of various SBR values from stronger to weaker SBR from attacker POV:
G40.2 SBR OOB
Bomber A1
Damage: 1D6+2
Cost 12Fighter A1 D1
Cost 101 StB A1 doing SBR against 1 Fg D1
D6+2: + 5.486 - 3.667 = +1.819 IPC damage/SBR, 1 vs 1
StB A1 doing SBR against 2 Fgs D1
D6+2: +4.85 - 5.056 = -0.206 IPCs damage/SBR
*9= -1.854, 9 vs 18
Net: -0.035
For 1 StB vs 1 Fg- 9 StBs vs 18 Fgs
Break even point: 10 StBs A1 C12 D6+2 vs 19 Fgs D1 C10
Break even ratio: 10/19= 0.526 StB/Fg
0.526*12=
6.32 IPCs/10 IPCs = 0.632 offense/defense cost ratio
G40.2 SBR HR
Bomber A0
Damage: 1D6+3
Cost 12Fighter A1 D1
Cost 101 StB A0 damage D6+3 doing SBR against 1 Fg D1
D6+3: +4.514 - 3.667 = +0.847 damage/SBR
*26= +22.022, 26 vs 26
1 StB Att 0 D6+3 doing SBR against 2 Fgs D1
D6+3: +3.762 -5.056 = -1.294 IPCs damage/SBR
*17= -21.998, 17 vs 34
Net: +0.024
For 26 StBs vs 26 Fg- 17 StBs vs 34 Fgs
Break even point: 43 StBs A0 D6+3 vs 60 Fgs D1
43/60= 0.717 StB/Fg break even ratio
8.6 IPCs/10 IPCs = 0.86 offense/defense ratio
G40.2 SBR HR
Bomber A1 First Strike as AAA against up to 2 Fgs which ever the lower,
Damage: 1D6+2
Cost 12Fighter A2 D2
Cost 10A1fs as AAA vs up to 2, D6+2 vs D2
1 StB vs 1 Fg 0.199 IPCs damage/SBR
*10= +1.990, 10 vs 10
1 StB vs 2 Fgs -0.662 IPCs damage/SBR
*3= -1.986, 3 vs 6
Net: +0.004
For 10 StBs vs 10 Fgs- 3 StBs vs 6 Fgs
Break even point: 13 StBs A1fs C12 D6+2 vs 16 Fgs D2 C10
0.8125 StB/Fg break even ratio
9.75 IPCs/10 IPCs = 0.975 offense/defense IPC ratio
Young Grasshopper HR
G40.2 SBR HR
Bomber A0 but 1 Attack @1 per bomber group
Damage: 1D6+2
Cost 12Fighter A1 D1
Cost 10StB 1A1+xA0, D6+2 vs Fg D1
2 StBs A1+A0 against 3 Fgs D1
1 StB A1 vs 1 Fg D1: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPCs, 1 vs 1
1 StB A0 vs 2 Fgs D1: + 3.183 - 5.056 = - 1.873 IPCs, 1 vs 2
OR
1 StB A1 vs 2 Fgs D1: + 4.850 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs, 1 vs 2
1 StB A0 vs 1 Fg D1: + 3.819 - 3.667 = + 0.152 IPC, 1 vs 1
Sum: + 8.669 - 8.723 = - 0.054 IPC damage/SBR
Net: -0.054
Break even point: 2 StBs A1/A0 C12 D6+2 vs 3 Fgs D1 C10
0.667 StB/Fg break even ratio with lower number of units
8 IPCs/10 IPCs = 0.8 off/def ratio1 StB A0 vs 1 Fg D1: + 3.819 - 3.667 = + 0.152 IPC
*25= +3.800, 25 vs 25
1 StB A0 vs 2 Fgs D1: + 3.183 - 5.056 = - 1.873 IPC
*2= -3.746 + -0.054= -3.800, 2 vs 4 + 2 vs 3
Net: +0.00
For 25 StBs vs 25 Fgs- 2 StBs vs 4 Fgs
- 2 StBs vs 3 Fgs
Break even point: 29 StBs A1 A0 C12 D6+2 vs 32 Fgs D1 C10
0.9063 StB/Fg break even ratio with higher number of units
10.875 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.09 offense/defense ratio
G40.2 or 1942.2 SBR HR
Bomber A0
Damage: 1D6+2
Cost 12Fighter A1 D1
Cost 10StB A0 C12 D6+2 vs Fg D1
1 StB A0 vs 1 Fg D1: + 3.819 - 3.667 = + 0.152 IPC
*25= +3.800, 25 vs 25
1 StB A0 vs 2 Fg D1: + 3.183 - 5.056 = - 1.873 IPC
*2= -3.746, 2 vs 4
Net: +0.054
For 25 StBs vs 25 Fgs- 2 StBs vs 4 Fgs
Break even point: 27 StBs A0 C12 D6+2 vs 29 Fgs D1 C10
0.931 StB/Fg break even ratio
11.17 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.12 offense/defense cost ratio
__
1942.2 OOB with D6+2 G40.2 damage, SBR HR
Bomber A1 First Strike,
Damage: 1D6+2
Cost 12Fighter A1 First Strike D2
Cost 101942.2 A1 first strike D6+2 vs Fg D2
1 StB vs 1 Fg: +4.977 - 4.778 = +0.199 IPC damage/SBR
*50=+9.950, 50 vs 50
1 StB vs 2 Fgs: +3.874 - 7.185 = -3.311 IPCs damage/SBR
*3= -9.933, 3 vs 6
Net: +0.017
For 50 StBs vs 50 Fgs- 3 StBs vs 6 Fgs
Break even point: 53 StBs A1fs C12 D6+2 vs 56 Fgs D2 C10
0.946 StB/Fg break even ratio
11.36 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.14 offense/defense cost ratio
1942.2 Triple A SBR
or Young Grasshopper G40.2 HR for StB not starting from Air Base
Bomber A1
Damage: 1D6
Cost 12Fighter A1 D1
Cost 101 StB A1 D6 vs 1 Fg D1
1 vs 1: +3.69 - 3.667 = +0.023 IPC damage/SBR
*132= +3.036, 132 vs 132
StB A1 D6 against 2 Fgs D1
1 vs 2 : +2.025 - 5.056 = -3.031 IPCs damage/SBR
Net: -0.005
For 132 StBs vs 132 Fgs- 1 StBs vs 2 Fgs
Break even point: 133 StBs A1 C12 D6 vs 134 Fgs D1 C10
133/134= 0.9925 StB/Fg break even ratio
11.91 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.191 offense/defense ratio
Regular Kid’s Balance Mode
G40.2 SBR HR
Bomber A1
Damage: 1D6+2
Cost 12Fighter A2 D2
Cost 102 StBs A1 against 1 Fgs D2
1D6+2: +10.639 - 7.334 = + 3.304 IPCs damage/SBR
*12=+39.648, 24 vs 12
1 StB A1 vs 1 Fg D2
1D6+2: + 4.723 - 5.333 = - 0.61 IPC dam/SBR
*65= -39.650, 65 vs 65
Net: -0.002
For 24 StBs vs 12 Fgs- 65 StBs vs 65 Fgs
Break even point: 89 StBs A1 C12 D6+2 vs 77 Fgs D2 C10
1.156 StB/Fg break even ratio
13.87 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.39 offense/defense IPC ratio
G40.2 or 1942.2 SBR HR
Bomber A1 as AAA against up to 2 Fgs which ever the lower,
Damage: 1D6+2
Cost 12Fighter A2 D2
Cost 10StB A1 as AAA up to 2 Fg, D6+2 vs 1 Fg D2
2 vs 1 +1.972 *4= +7.888, 8 StBs vs 4 Fgs
1 vs 1 -0.61 *13= -7.930, 13 StBs vs 13 Fgs
Net: -0.042
Break even point: 21 StBs A1 C12 D6+2 vs 17 Fgs D2 C10
21/17= 1.235 StB/Fg break even ratio
14.824 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.48 offense/defense cost ratio
__1942.2 OOB SBR with D6 damage
Bomber A1 First Strike
Damage: 1D6
Cost 12Fighter A1 First Strike D2
Cost 102 StBs A1 first strike doing SBR against 1 Fg D2
2 vs 1 : +8.214 - 6.315 = +1.899 IPCs
*10= +18.99, 20 vs 10
1 StB A1fs against 1 Fg D2
OOB 1942.2 D6: +3.8 - 4.8 = -1 IPC damage/SBR
*19= -19.00, 19 vs 19
Net: -0.010
For 20 StBs vs 10 Fgs- 19 StBs vs 19 Fgs
Break even point: 39 StBs A1fs C12 D6 vs 29 Fgs D2 C10
39/29= 1.345 StB/Fg break even ratio
16.1 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.61 offense/defense cost ratio
__
Young Grasshopper HR
G40.2 SBR HR mostly implied from D6 Strat Bombers not starting from Air Base
Bomber A0 + 1A1 for StBs group
Damage: 1D6
Cost 12Fighter A1 D1
Cost 103 Strategic Bombers A0 D6 damage doing SBR against 1 Fg D1
3 vs 1: + 8.264 -7.666= +0.598 IPCs
2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 1 Fg D1
2 vs 1: + 5.347 -5.666= -0.319 IPCs
*2= -0.638, 4 vs 2
Net: -0.040
7 StBs A0 vs 3 Fgs D1
And
1 StB A1 doing SBR against 1 Fg D1
1 vs 1: +3.69 - 3.667 = +0.023 IPC damage/SBR
Net: -0.017
Break even point: 8 StBs A0 D6 vs 4 Fgs D1
Break even ratio: 8/4= 2.0 StBs/Fg
24 IPCs/10 IPCs = 2.4 offense/defense cost ratio
G40.2 SBR HR
Bomber A0
Damage: 1D6
Cost 12Fighter A1 D1
Cost 103 StBs A0 Damage D6 doing SBR against 1 Fg D1
3 vs 1: + 8.264 -7.666= +0.598 IPCs
2 StBs A0 doing SBR against 1 Fg D1
2 vs 1: + 5.347 -5.666= -0.319 IPCs
*2= -0.638, 4 vs 2
Net: -0.040
For 3 StBs vs 1 Fg- 4 StBs vs 2 Fgs
Break even point: 7 StB A0 D6 vs 3 Fg D1
7/3= 2.333 StB/Fg break even ratio
2.333*12=
28 IPCs/10 IPCs = 2.8 offense/defense IPCs ratio
@Young:
What can be done to prevent German players from deploying a “Dark Skies” strategy? I don’t want to see it abolished altogether, but there should be something to slow down this gimmicky gambit.
I’ll get it started with the following ideas…
- Bombers conducting SBRs only receive a +2 damage bonus if they have departed from an operational airbase
- During air battles with interceptors, roll 1 dice @1 per bomber formation instead of 1 dice @1 per bomber.
- All hits from an air defence of any kind must be applied to participating strategic bombers first.
YG,
If you plan to introduce some of your idea in one of your game, such as “During air battles with interceptors, roll 1 dice @1 per bomber formation instead of 1 dice @1 per bomber.”
You shouldn’t combine it with the other:
“- Bombers conducting SBRs only receive a +2 damage bonus if they have departed from an operational airbase”
Why?
I believe it makes SBR far too weak.
My analysis bring up that it is worse amongst many, including 1942.2 SBR. and regular Kid’s Balance Mode SBR.
In fact the D6 when not starting from an AB, make SBR as balance as it is in TripleA 1942.2 optional SBR. Adding another restraint would certainly push attacker to use StBombers in regular combat instead.1942.2 Triple A SBR
or Young Grasshopper G40.2 HR for StB not starting from Air Base
Bomber A1
Damage: 1D6
Cost 12Fighter A1 D1
Cost 101 StB A1 D6 vs 1 Fg D1
1 vs 1: +3.69 - 3.667 = +0.023 IPC damage/SBR
*132= +3.036, 132 vs 132
StB A1 D6 against 2 Fgs D1
1 vs 2 : +2.025 - 5.056 = -3.031 IPCs damage/SBR
Net: -0.005
For 132 StBs vs 132 Fgs- 1 StBs vs 2 Fgs
Break even point: 133 StBs A1 C12 D6 vs 134 Fgs D1 C10
133/134= 0.9925 StB/Fg break even ratio
11.91 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.191 offense/defense ratio
It is pretty balance 1 StB for 1 Fg. And within usual offense/defense cost ratio.
Your other SBR in itself is much funnier because it provides more reason to intercept because risks are very much reduced against bomber only and you still get a pretty interesting odds of making damage for the attacker, if you keep all the way D6+2 damage:
Young Grasshopper HR
G40.2 SBR HR
Bomber A0 but 1 Attack @1 per bomber group
Damage: 1D6+2
Cost 12Fighter A1 D1
Cost 101 StB A1 vs 2 Fgs D1: + 4.850 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs, 1 vs 2
1 StB A0 vs 1 Fg D1: + 3.819 - 3.667 = + 0.152 IPC, 1 vs 1
Sum: + 8.669 - 8.723 = - 0.054 IPC damage/SBR
Net: -0.054
Break even point: 2 StBs A1/A0 C12 D6+2 vs 3 Fgs D1 C10
0.667 StB/Fg break even ratio with lower number of units
8 IPCs/10 IPCs = 0.8 off/def ratio1 StB A0 vs 1 Fg D1: + 3.819 - 3.667 = + 0.152 IPC
*25= +3.800, 25 vs 25
1 StB A0 vs 2 Fgs D1: + 3.183 - 5.056 = - 1.873 IPC
*2= -3.746 + -0.054= -3.800, 2 vs 4 + 2 vs 3
Net: +0.00
For 25 StBs vs 25 Fgs- 2 StBs vs 4 Fgs
- 2 StBs vs 3 Fgs
Break even point: 29 StBs A1 A0 C12 D6+2 vs 32 Fgs D1 C10
0.9063 StB/Fg break even ratio with higher number of units
10.875 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.09 offense/defense ratio
With low number of units (2 or 3), you get a strong SBR (0.667 StB/Fg break even ratio) for attacker but weaker than OOB (0.526 StB/Fg break even ratio). And if there is more StBs and interceptors, it becomes weaker (0.906 StB/Fg break even ratio).
- 9 StBs vs 18 Fgs
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