Clearing the Dark Skies

[CWO Marc]

@Carolina:

High Altitude Attack (Str and Tac Bombers only):
Reduce attack factor by 2.  Aircraft are not subject AAA defense (see Low Level).
Reduce defense rolls by 1.

I think there are two potential problems with this, from a point of view of realism.  The first problem is that tactical aircraft don’t operate at high altitude; by definition, they’re low-level, surface-attack planes.  The second problem is that it’s virtually impossible for a high-level strategic bomber to successfully bomb something as small as a warship (especially a moving one) from high altitude with a WWII-era unguided bomb.  Even hitting specific large land targets (like factories) was hard for WWII bombers, unless they were working in large numbers and had both good aim and good luck.

[General 6 Stars]

I agree. We have had a few discussions about the Bombers attack values.

Str Bomber - A3 against all ships every round
                  SBR 1 D6+2

Str Bomber - A2 against all ships every round
                  SBR 1 D6+2

Str Bomber - A3 against all ships every round
                  SBR 1 D 6+2
                  AA  1D10 A2 at Str Bombers only due to size and speed.

I’ve have also used D8’s A2  for AA shots at all planes in a game. Was a bit strong.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Carolina:

This rule attempts to handle some concerns; helpless transports against air only attacks, air attacks by bombers @ high altitude bombers were generally ineffective, any attacks in any area are really a series of sorties (they didn’t have unlimited ammo and fuel), ships are moving targets.

Aircraft in Sea battles:

Each aircraft declares a High or Low level attack.

High Altitude Attack (Str and Tac Bombers only):
Reduce attack factor by 2. Aircraft are not subject AAA defense (see Low Level).
Reduce defense rolls by 1.

Low Level Attack:
All ships have an implied AAA unit. Acts the same as land AAA with these considerations; BB and CV units have full AAA, CA & DD have 2 shot AAA, SS none, and TR 1 shot only. This AAA capability is only available at the start of the 2nd round of combat, except CV start at 1st round of combat (due to CV radar). Note: Radar breakthrough adds the 1st round capability to all ships, but they do not get the hit bonus.

IF the unfriendly force is aircraft only, for both high and low level attacks, each defending ship gets to roll 1 die at end of each round of combat. If a 6, then the ship has evaded, and does not participate in further rounds of combat. This roll is optional, but must evade.

All scrambled air units do low level attacks. If an attacking ship evades during an amphib assault it cannot bombard or land units.  (Remember evade is only available when the other side is air only).

Each aircraft declares a High or Low level attack.
I believe you are splitting (h)air…  :wink:

From a gameplay POV, it is an additional layer which delay game with a non-necessary option.

Simply gives 1 full AA per warship.
(I prefer BB and Cruiser because they are sub-optimal compared to Carrier, but it is simply a matter of taste.)

Strangely, the evade capacity should be use when there is no aircraft, because ocean is a wide empty space and ships needed air recon to know where was the enemy fleet.
I believe battle of Midway gives some credits to the better US air recon than japanese.

So it becomes a double-edge:
1- Brings planes to keep an eye on enemy’s ships but you suffer enemy’s AA defense
2- Brings no plane against enemy warships, they can evade from your only naval attack.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Young:

What can be done to prevent German players from deploying a “Dark Skies” strategy? I don’t want to see it abolished altogether, but there should be something to slow down this gimmicky gambit.

I’ll get it started with the following ideas…

• Bombers conducting SBRs only receive a +2 damage bonus if they have departed from an operational airbase
• During air battles with interceptors, roll 1 dice @1 per bomber formation instead of 1 dice @1 per bomber.
• All hits from an air defence of any kind must be applied to participating strategic bombers first.

Here is a summary table for this special SBR Strategic bomber as a group in dogfight:

• During air battles with interceptors, roll 1 dice @1 per bomber formation instead of 1 dice @1 per bomber.
  -Damage to IC is 1D6+2

StB A1 as a group and Fg A1 D1 : damage 1D6+2

1 Strategic Bomber doing SBR against no interceptor
Sum: + 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D1
Sum: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPC damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: + 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 doing SBR against 3 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: + 4.319 - 6.213 = - 1.894 IPCs damage/StB run

1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 3 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: 7.578 - 6.954 = + 0.624 IPC damage/StB run

1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: +7.775 - 5.33 = + 2.445 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR run

2 Strategic Bombers A1+A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
A1 vs 1D1: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPCs
A0 vs 1D1: + 3.819 - 3.667 = + 0.152 IPC
Sum: + 9.305 - 7.334 = + 1.971 IPCs damage/SBR run

2 Strategic Bombers A1+A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptors D1
A1 vs 1D1 : + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPCs
A0 vs no : + 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs
Sum: + 10.069 - 5.667 = + 4.402 IPCs damage/SBR run

2 Strategic Bombers doing SBR against no interceptor
Sum: + 9.166 - 4 = +5.166 IPCs damage/SBR run

2 Strategic Bombers A1+A0 doing SBR against 3 interceptors D1
A1 vs 1D1: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPCs
A0 vs 2D1: + 3.183 - 5.056 = - 1.873 IPC
Or
A1 vs 2D1: + 4.850 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs
A0 vs 1D1: + 3.819 - 3.667 = + 0.152 IPC
Sum: + 8.669 - 8.723 = - 0.054 IPC damage/SBR run

2 Strategic Bombers A1+A0 & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 3 interceptors D1
A1+A1 vs 2D1: +7.775 - 5.330 = + 2.445 IPCs
A0 vs D1: + 3.819 - 3.667 = + 0.152 IPC
Sum: + 11.594 - 8.997 = + 2.597 IPCs damage/SBR run

2 Strategic Bombers A1+A0 & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
A1+A1 vs D1:+ 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs
A0 vs D1: + 3.819 - 3.667 = + 0.152 IPC
Sum: + 11.458 - 7.334 = + 4.124 IPCs damage/SBR run

2 Strategic Bombers A1+A0 & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
A1+A1 vs D1:+ 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs
A0 vs no: + 4.583 - 2 = + 2.583 IPCs
Sum: + 12.222 - 5.667 = + 6.555 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

G1940 OOB SBR:
1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
Sum: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D1
Sum: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: + 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPC damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 3 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: 7.578 - 6.954 = + 0.624 IPC damage/StB run

1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: +7.775 - 5.33 = + 2.445 IPCs damage/SBR run

2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR run

2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 doing SBR against 3 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: + 4.319 - 6.213 = - 1.894 IPCs damage/StB run

OOB G40: 1 StB A1 doing SBR against 3 intercepting Fgs D1

StB roll / interceptors Fgs roll / AAA roll = odds casualties

1/691/2166/6= 546/7776  1 StB killed by Fgs vs 1 Fg
1/6125/2161/6 = 125/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
1/6125/2165/6 = 625/7776 no casualty vs 1 Fg

5/691/2166/6 = 2730/7776  1 StB killed by Fgs vs no casualty
5/6125/2161/6 = 625/7776  1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
5/6125/2165/6 = 3125/7776 no casualty at all

Results:
Bombard on IC: 3750/7776= 48.23% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 2.652 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 1296/7776= 16.67% +10 IPCs = + 1.667 IPCs
StB killed: 4026/7776= 51.77%-12 IPCs = - 6.213 IPCs

Sum: + 4.319 - 6.213 = - 1.894 IPCs damage/StB run

OOB G40: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 3 intercepting Fgs D1

StB+Fg rolls / interceptors Fgs roll / AAA roll = odds casualties

1/3616/2166/6  = 96/46656  1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs 2 Fgs
1/3675/2161/6 =  75/46656  1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs
1/3675/2165/6 =   375/46656  1 Fg vs 2 Fgs
1/36125/2161/6 = 125/46656  1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs
1/36125/2165/6 = 625/46656  no casualty vs 2 Fgs

10/3616/2166/6 = 960/46656  1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg
10/3675/2161/6= 750/46656  1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
10/3675/2165/6 = 3750/46656 1 Fg vs 1 Fg
10/36125/2161/6 = 1250/46656  1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
10/36125/2165/6 = 6250/46656  no casualty vs 1 Fg

25/3616/2166/6 = 2400/46656   1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty
25/3675/2161/6 = 1875/46656   1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/3675/2165/6 = 9375/46656  1 Fg vs no casualty
25/36125/2161/6 = 3125/46656  1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/36125/2165/6 = 15625/46656 no casualty at all

Results:
Bombard on IC: 36000/46656 * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 4.244 IPCs
Killing 2 Fgs: 1296/46656 +20 IPCs = + 0.556 IPC
Killing 1 Fg: 12960/46656 +10 IPCs = + 2.778 IPCs
Fg killed: 13500/46656-10 IPCs = - 2.894 IPCs
StB killed: 4500/46656-12 IPCs = - 1.157 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 6156/46656*-22 IPCs = - 2.903 IPCs

Sum: 7.578 - 6.954 = + 0.624 IPC damage/StB run

[baron Münchhausen]

2 Strategic Bombers doing SBR against no interceptor
Sum: + 9.166 - 4 = +5.166 IPCs damage/SBR run

2 Strategic Bombers A1+A0 & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
A1+A1 vs D1:+ 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs
A0 vs no: + 4.583 - 2 = + 2.583 IPCs
Sum: + 12.222 - 5.667 = + 6.555 IPCs damage/SBR run

Comparing these two situations, it reveals that when there is a similar number of escorting and intercepting Fgs, it is better for the defender to not intercept.
Intercepting means increasing odds in favor of the attacker.
Here, it gives +1.389 IPCs damage/SBR run.
Same as G40 OOB, 3.972- 2.583 = + 1.389 IPCs.

So YG, your idea to put bomber as first target in SBR dogfight might encourage interceptions.

The break even point for attacker and defender is this situation:
2 Strategic Bombers A1+A0 doing SBR against 3 interceptors D1
A1 vs 1D1: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPCs
A0 vs 2D1: + 3.183 - 5.056 = - 1.873 IPC
OR
A1 vs 2D1: + 4.850 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs
A0 vs 1D1: + 3.819 - 3.667 = + 0.152 IPC
Sum: + 8.669 - 8.723 = - 0.054 IPC damage/SBR run

This means that as long as you keep only 1 StB below the interceptors number, you keep an even score near 0.00 IPCs. Each additional 1 StB vs 1Fg increase by 0.152 IPC/SBR

Example : 7 StBs 1A1 6A0 vs 8 Fg D1
-0.054 + 5*(+0.152) = +0.706 IPC/SBR

For comparison, in OOB G40 SBR (D6+2 damage), the break even point is:
OOB G40 even point: 4 StBs A1 + 1 Fg A1 against 9 Fgs D1

In your SBR HR (damage 1D6+2), you would be near +0.100 IPCs:
2 StBs (1A1, 1A0) vs 3 Fg + 8.669 - 8.723 = - 0.054 IPC damage/SBR run
1 StB A0 vs 1 Fg D1: + 3.819 - 3.667 = + 0.152 IPC
Sum: + 12.488 - 12.390 = + 0.098
YG HR SBR even point: 3 StBs (1A1 +2A0) against 4 Fgs D1.

If all StBs have no offence A0, and D6+2 damage,
The break even point is:
8 StBs A0 vs 9 Fgs D1 near +0.007

Below 8 StBs if there is 1 more Fg than StB, it is pro-defense.
If there is an even number of StBs against the same number of Fgs, it is pro-offense.

If all StBs have no offence A0, and D6+3 damage,
The break even point is:
7 StBs A0 vs 10 Fgs D1 near -0.065
At 3 StBs A0 vs 5 Fgs D1 ratio, it is pro-defense
At 4 StBs A0 vs 5 Fgs D1 ratio, it is pro-offense.

[baron Münchhausen]

Another daring fix is to forbid Strategic Bombers to hit planes, whether in land or naval combat. Only naval or ground units can be taken as casualty.

That way, all Fighters and Tactical Bombers can survive a swarm of Strat Bombers.
And needs other kind of units to conquer a land territory.

However, surface warships and TPs becomes much vulnerable because you cannot use Fgs as shields.
Battleships and Carriers becomes much easier to target and sink.

---

Another fix which is less potent against StBs is to make all Carriers able to carry 3 Fighters or TacBs instead of just 2 as OOB. It is Black_Elk idea.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35415.msg1383361#msg1383361

To get the better balance, maybe it needs to be put with similar Transport changes such as
suggested earlier:

TRANSPORT
7 IPCs A0 D0 *AA1 M2-3 (NB), 1 hit, taken last as casualty
Carry 2 units, 1 Inf + 1 any ground unit
No defense against warships.

Beginning on the second round, 1 Transport can escape from Naval Battle in the same SZ at each end of combat round, if there is no enemy’s aircraft.
Simply remove TP from battle board and place it in the same SZ on the map.

*Regular AA @1 against up to 1 plane each combat round, whichever the lesser.

[Young Grasshopper]

Hey BM, sorry I haven’t read through your posts before throwing out another idea, but how about this…

Strategic Bombers

Cost - 12 IPCs
Move - 6 (+1 from OAB)
Attack @3
Defend @2

(Basically everything the same but drop the attack value from @4 to @3, and boost their defence value from @1 to @2)

This might also solve the cruiser issue by putting the bombers attack value on par with cruisers which cost the same, specialties for bombers would still be SBR, and specialties for cruisers would still be shore bombardment.

[baron Münchhausen]

I like it too.
A3 D2 with no combined arms is simpler.
I truly believe StB should have a basic 3 attack because of the long range capacity.

It helps also when compared with Cruiser.

[Young Grasshopper]

@Baron:

I like it too.
A3 D2 with no combined arms is simpler.
I truly believe StB should have a basic 3 attack because of the long range capacity.

It helps also when compared with Cruiser.

I prefer simple

[baron Münchhausen]

However,
I still would upgrade Tactical Bomber attack to 4 pure and simple.
TcB
Attack 4
Defense 3
Move 4-5
Cost 11 IPCs or 12 IPCs.
SBR A1 Damage 1D6 IPCs.

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS:

I agree. We have had a few discussions about the Bombers attack values.

Str Bomber - A3 against all ships every round
                   SBR 1 D6+2

Str Bomber - A2 against all ships every round
                   SBR 1 D6+2

Str Bomber - A3 against all ships every round
                   SBR 1 D 6+2
                   AA   1D10 A2 at Str Bombers only due to size and speed.

I’ve have also used D8’s A2  for AA shots at all planes in a game. Was a bit strong.

Do you imply that it stay @4 in land combat?
StBs seems historically not that good against ground troops neither.
Maybe A2 D1 with lower cost but higher damage in SBR would appear more accurate?

[General 6 Stars]

Baron yes. Ground attacks by Str Bombers should be lower values to. I was just responding to the naval.

I’m just trying to keep it simple with only 1 or 2 changes.

Str Bombers -   A4  against naval
                      A3 D1 against ground
                      SBR 1D6+2
                      Battleships and Cruisers 1 AA shot each with a cap on AA shots

Str Bombers -   A3  against naval
                      A3 D1 against ground
                      SBR 1D6+2
                      AA 1D10 A2 only against Str Bombers.

[A Former User]

Re: the SS post on a D1 or D2 on naval…. When would a Str Bomber defend against naval fire?  They don’t scramble.  Right?

[General 6 Stars]

I removed the Str Bomber Defense value.

[A Former User]

Its interesting that such a change on bombers has started so much discussion.  The classic game was A4/D1 cost 15.  I wonder why the cost was dropped to 12?  At price of 12 they are too potent.  I would agree the values should be changed to A3/D2.  I just cannot get around the fact that Str Bombers were just not effective against moving targets - land, air, or sea.

I see 3 things that could be done;
A4/D1 cost 15
or A3/D2 cost 12
or A4/D1 cost 12, hits cannot be applied to Fighters or Tac Bombers.

It all cases, BB and CA should get a AA roll.

[General 6 Stars]

Then make it

A3 D1 M6 C15 but no Battleship or Cruiser AA shot

[A Former User]

Actually going to play-test with A3-4/D1/C12.  Gets the same air superiority bonus as tactical.

So without long-range fighter support they are reduced in attack.

[Young Grasshopper]

@Baron:

However,
I still would upgrade Tactical Bomber attack to 4 pure and simple.
TcB
Attack 4
Defense 3
Move 4-5
Cost 11 IPCs or 12 IPCs.
SBR A1 Damage 1D6 IPCs.

If they get the @4 attack outright, I would make them 12 IPCs.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Carolina:

Actually going to play-test with A3-4/D1/C12.  Gets the same air superiority bonus as tactical.

So without long-range fighter support they are reduced in attack.

Let us know how your G40 Dark Skies evolves with this reduced attack factor.
With OOB TacB, your game will be different than Barney play-test and XML file.

I anticipate more Fighters purchase to increase both units attack factor.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Young:

@Baron:

However,
I still would upgrade Tactical Bomber attack to 4 pure and simple.
TcB
Attack 4
Defense 3
Move 4-5
Cost 11 IPCs or 12 IPCs.
SBR A1 Damage 1D6 IPCs.

If they get the @4 attack outright, I would make them 12 IPCs.o

Fine.
I suppose TacB keeps A1 in TBR and 1D6 damage on NB and AB.
Its attack factor is better than StB (1@1 for whole group),
so I believe 12 IPCs is a fair price.
And you keep an iconic A4 bomber unit.
Just not the traditional StB but the new bomber plane for the big game which is global.

Did you ever play first edition Global?
Was Dark Skies a strategy then?