New Axis & Allies Global War Variant (free map)

[Imperious Leader]

best to use wooden tokens 1 inch square and buy 8.5x11 decal sheets and cut units from sheet and stick to wooden blocks.

[Deaths Head 420]

sigh Well then think of it like this. The 75 IPC’s also includes the trade the UK was getting from the US that’s not represented in the original game. But how is it actually represented on the board. In the spaces worth something but shouldn’t be.

Play a game on the map, even at 75 IPC’s UK can’t do a whole lot but try to hang on.  If it is lowered I wouldn’t suggest going lower then 65.
Or India is 15 IPC’s and Australia gets 18 IPCS the same way as Pacific (if I remember correctly)  and the the UK could collect what ever the total is in Europe edition. Then from those totals you have UK’s income. Do we throw in the extra IPC’s from the middle east as in Europe.

This would make sense if we planned on using the previous set up charts since they pretty much mimic AAE+AAP

Thoughts?

[Adlertag]

HISTORICALLY CORRECT IPC INCOME OF THE GREAT POWERS 1938 (in GDP and international dollars)

ALLIED POWERS

USA 800
US Colonies 26 (Philipphines)
US trading bloc 250 (Central and South America )

UK 284
UK Dominions 115 (Australia, Canada, New Zealand & South Africa)
UK Colonies 233 (India, Burma, Borneo, Hong Kong, Malaya)
UK Controlled 52 (Anglo-Egypt, Iraq & Iran)

France 186
French Colonies 50 (French Indo-China, Algeria &  French West Africa)

USSR 360

China (exc Manch) 320

AXIS POWERS

Germany 350
Austria 24

Italy 140
Italian Colonies 2 (Libya)

Axis trading bloc
Switz 26
Sweden 30
Spain 52
Portugal 12
Portuguese Colonies 8 (Angola, Mozambiqe)
Turkey 23

Japan 170
Japanese Colonies 62 (Korea, Manchuria & Formosa)
Siam 12

1938 NEUTRAL MINORS

Czecho 30
Poland 76
Denmark 20
Nether/Belgium 90
Dutch Colonies 78 (Indonesia)
Norway 11
Finland 12
Baltic 12
Greece 20
Hungary 24
Bulgaria 10
Yugoslavia 22
Romania 20

The map should have this historical correct values

The problem of making a game like this is that the military burden was changing all the time

The military burden 1939 -1944, in per cent of national income:
Powers…1939…1940…1941…1942…1943…1944
USA…1 %…2%…11%…31%…42%…42%
UK…15%…44%…53%…52%…55%…53%
USSR…-…17%…28%…61%…61%…53%

Germany…23%…40%…52%…64%…70%
Italy…8%…12%…23%…22%…21%
Japan…22%…22%…27%…33%…43%…76%

The game World in Flames by Australian Design Group tryed to copy this in a very complicated system, that togheter with a US entry chart and political action charts determined how many % you could multiplie your IPC income with

[Adlertag]

In 1939 the Anglo-French alliance system comprised 700 million people and 48 million square kilometres
against Germany, Italy and Japans system with 260 million people and 6 million square kilometres

Before 1942, USA, China and USSR joined the allies with 712 million people ( China 412, USSR 170, USA 130)
compared to the Axis gain of 28 million people from Finland, Romania & Hungary.

Comparison 1942

Allies (UK, USA, USSR & China) > Axis (Germany, Italy & Japan)

Population Allied 2>1 Axis
Territory Allied 7>1 Axis
Income Allied 1.3 >1 Axis

The values from A&A MB 2 ed is closest to historical reallity

[Imperious Leader]

Eagle:

Its great to see you in these forums. I hope you post often. Thanks to you i have Harrisons book and use it very well.

check out AARHE when you get a chance

[Deaths Head 420]

@deepblue:

DH,

Issue!  There are no current territories that have 10 IPCs.

I could create one but it most likely won’t match.

I will try a few things and let you know.  In the mean time you might want to reevaluate anything above an 8.

Also,

I have looked at your US numbers and they don’t add up. 
Are you aware that currently the US CBs add up to 23 not 15?

The original Convoy boxes add up to 18 not 22, I was wrong with 15 myself.

[murraymoto]

@Deaths:

sigh Well then think of it like this. The 75 IPC’s also includes the trade the UK was getting from the US that’s not represented in the original game. But how is it actually represented on the board. In the spaces worth something but shouldn’t be.
Play a game on the map, even at 75 IPC’s UK can’t do a whole lot but try to hang on.  If it is lowered I wouldn’t suggest going lower then 65.
This would make sense if we planned on using the previous set up charts since they pretty much mimic AAE+AAP

If the 75 for the UK is the money/income/production from trade and lend lease from the US, then shouldn’t the US total go down?  And didn’t Deepblue say he was going to put in lend lease rules for this version?  If so, then looking at the 75 for UK would be double dipping their trade income.

Totalling the AAE and AAP boards is a nice thought, seems simple enough except that in order to give the UK it’s totals in those games the totals of each independently includes income from territories that are NOT on the board.  Example-income on the AAP board includes supplies/ipcs from Europe and Africa.  This would be the same for the reverse of AAE having income coming from the Pacific.  To add them together gives you a inaccurate total.

Even Aldertag’s numbers paint a very different view of the UK income and go along with the Harrison numbers I posted previously.   It would make more sense to give the US 100 and make them wait a turn to build then to give the UK more than Germany.

By the way, Aldertag, where did your info come from?  book, web?  nice percentage chart.

[Imperious Leader]

Eagle days numbers are from Harrison. He has the book too.

[Adlertag]

Yes, I sure got the book.

[deepblue]

@Deaths:

The original Convoy boxes add up to 18 not 22, I was wrong with 15 myself.

I don’t know what map your looking at DH, but the US has 2 CBs in the Atlantic that add up to 10, 3 CBs in the Pacific that add up to 13 which in turn equals a total of 23.

[Deaths Head 420]

Deep Blue

Will you please repost the last edition of the map so I know we are on the same page,  :);)
Thanks

[deepblue]

A link to all the drafts is in my signature.

[deepblue]

It appears that the group does not like the currently proposed IPC system and are looking for a more historical system.  I would have to agree.

Murraymoto & Adlertag,
Thanks for posting the numbers they will be a great help.

Now we need to convert these numbers into something we can use on the map.

I calculated each nation’s percentage of world production for the time period.

Keep in mind that our map is 1941 and not 1938.
So…
The trading blocks have been added to the US and Germany
Neutrals have been added to the controlling nation on our map if no longer neutral.
France has been added to Germany.
Etc…

Below you will find the raw unadjusted numbers for the time period.  Compared with what each nation would be making on our map if the world’s production was 250 IPCs.

These numbers will have to be adjusted for balancing reasons.

Issues to address:

1. Italy needs to make more than 4% to be playable.
2. I have not adjusted China & Japan’s percentage to account for the Japanese controlled territories in China on our map.  This needs to be
           adjusted.
3. The overall difference in production between the Axis & Allies needs to be lowered.

I look forward to your thoughts.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[CraigBee]

There are about 185 territories.  If the total remains 250, there will be many zero and one dollar valued areas.  This will cause significant ‘rounding’ of the numbers.  A higher total may be better with the number of territories.

BTW, we are playing Posotrinics map on Tuesdays.  Very good game.

Craig

[Deaths Head 420]

So, looking at your note pad here l your IPC levels using those numbers,

You have an Axis total of 92

Germany 65
Japan 17
Italy 10

Allies 158

US 67
UK 47
Russia 23
China 20?

Does that seem even playable on a map this big?
How come China makes more then a Major player in Japan or even Italy?  :x
Russia wont last 4 turns  :wink:
Big help Italy will be at 10 IPC’s a turn or japan at 17.
If you go with pure historical numbers the axis WILL lose every time just like history,
Every turn in every game will be the same, Build tanks, smash into russia. :-o
When russia falls the allied players will normally conceit the game.
The US will never got going, too short of a game
1/2 hour set up + strategy time to play 4-5 rounds :x
Russia makes more then 2 of the axis countries and only 5 less then the 2 combined  :roll:
Russia actually makes less then the Original A&A and A&A revised  :?
Same goes for Japan  :?

These are your numbers from various sources, not mine.

my 2 cents
DH

Now remember when someone changes these numbers it will no longer be historical so there fore unplayable by some of the History laywers out there.

[deepblue]

DH,

Did you actually read the post?

These are not the proposed numbers.  These are the historical numbers.  In my post I address some of your concerns.

CraigBee,

250 was just a number I picked to do a comparison.

[Deaths Head 420]

I understand that, The Japenese held territories are not going to add a lot to Japans total, maybe 4-6 IPC’s and thats being very generous.

Yes I read the post.  I know these are the historical numbers, but that seems to me to be what other people want. So you gave them the historical numbers, and that was some of my observations.  I have more. 
Thought that was the problem with my proposed IPC system which is not historically correct.  But if you want to get technical AAR OA&A is not historically correct either according to your numbers.
Take down US by 5 and UK by 10, That will close the  gap to 70 something difference

So….
I wasn’t that far off.
Plus if you go historical you might as as well  call it Germany vs the Allies. Also does that mean that whatever the US eventually makes, Germany will make 1 dollar less?

Historical totals is what they want, and if you even adjust them just a little, it’s no longer historical.
thats all I am saying.

[Deaths Head 420]

@Deaths:

So what we will have in the grand scheme of things is-

ALLIES = 205 IPC’s
AXIS + 123 IPC’s

22.5pts  over Half of Allied Production

This leaves England room to breath without smothering the Axis powers

So there it is
My 12 Cents

Take it as you will.    :evil:

DH

Then my suggestion is if the 82 IPC difference is the Issue and still trying to stay Historical how about this
Bump Gemany to 65
Japan 40
Italy 25
total 130

US 70
UK 55
Russia 42
China 10
total 177

for a difference of 47 IPC’s

How’s that for a poke

[Adlertag]

@Deaths:

Historical totals is what they want, and if you even adjust them just a little, it’s no longer historical.
thats all I am saying.

Nothing about this game is historical correct, just look at the aircraft carriers. In real world a CV carried 80 fighters. If an A&A fighter represent 1000 aircrafts, then an A&A CV carry 2000 fighters, totally ahistoric. And on top of that, when you attack somebody, the fighters on the CV can switch place with some landbased fighters. And look at the infantry, the A&A infantry basically have the same value in both attack and in defense. In real world defense is the strongest, and it takes 3 units to attack 1 unit. But A&A is just a game, like Risk is.

What I want, is the propotions to be historical correct.
Half of UK’s IPC income must be from colonies and dominions
The income from UK (home island only) and FRance (home territory) match the income from Germany (home territory)
If UK is 8 and France is 8, then Germany is 16
France match the Eastern Europe.
If FRance is 8, then the total of Poland, Balkan, Romani etc is 8
USA is dobbel and half the income of Germany
If Germany home is 16, then USA home is 40

Also many small territories dont have IPC income, like you dont get income from impassable Himalaya or Sahara.
Some territories have more ressources than others, like Caucasus has oil and iron, and Kazakhstan has nothing but dust, the Cau must have more value even if it is a game, or I will not bother to play it

[Deaths Head 420]

The USA was not that much ahead ao Germany as far as production numbers are concerned at this stage of the War.  They Just Entered the war so they shouldn’t even be at full time war production The US may have had that lead in production near the end of the war, but not at this stage. Look at Deep Blues historical Numbers a 1% difference. how does that equal 2.5 x more then the US.