Yakut

[Jennifer]

Paint, in order for Germany to kill off any Russian fighters in that opening you’d have to get EXTREMELY lucky with the dice.

Ukraine:

3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 2 Armor, 1 Fighter

vs

3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Armor, 1 Fighter

(note, I’m going with low end for attacker, high end defender in cases of close races for most likely results. ie 68.5% and 67.25% chances for attacker is 67.25% result)
0% Chance of killing Russian fighter on R1
Most Likely Result of 1 Round:  1 inf, 1 art, 2 Arm, 1 Fig vs 1 inf, 1 art, 1 arm, 1 fig

0% Chance of killing Russian fighter on R2, assuming most likely result of R1
Most likely result of 2 Rounds: 2 arm, 1 fig vs 1 arm, 1 fig

0% Chance of killing Russian fighter on R3, assuming most likely results of R1 and R2
Most likely result of 3 Rounds: 1 Fighter vs Nothing

So Ukraine’s pretty well locked in as pretty close to an assured survival of the Russian fighter.  And if that changes, Russia can always retreat the fighter.

E. Europe:

3 Infantry, 1 Armor, 1 Fighter vs 2 Infantry, 1 Armor, 1 Fighter

R1: 1 Inf, 1 Arm, 1 Fig vs 1 Inf, 1 Arm, 1 Fig
Chance of Russian Fighter Loss: 0%

R2: 1 Arm, 1 Fig vs 1 Arm, 1 Fig
Chance of Russian Figher Loss: 0%

Given this situation it’s time to retreat.  However, let’s pretend to go for a 3rd round:

R3: Fighter vs Nothing.
Chance of Russian Fighter Loss: 50%; Chance of German Fighter Loss 50%

So, as you can see, Paint, with this opening you are not really risking your Fighters as Russia at all.  Not even a mild risk with an exceptioanlly large payoff if you are successful.  3/12 Fighters destroyed reducing the playing field immensely in favor of the Allies. (3rd fighter potentially destroyed is in FIC by England’s attacks.)  That’s 30 IPCs the Axis don’t have on R1 to replace them.  Especially if you keep up the pressure on Round 2.

[Nix]

In any attempt to Build an Indian ICX you must attack FIC with 3 inf, 1 Fig and Kill the 2 Infs at whatever cost.  But when you have killed the 2 infs you may withdraw if you want your fig to live.

But if you fail, put the IC somewhere else.

[Guest]

You know, there IS another viable place for an early UK IC that does NOT detract from an attack on Germany AND gets rid of that production limit for UK…

Eastern Canada.

3 units per round… TRN and 2 units initially, then 3 units per turn.  Out and back with 2 TRN from ECan to UK adds 3 more pieces to the flow into wherever UK is landing, or a seperate out and back landing of 3 units into Africa that is independent of the UK builds and movements.

Immune to SBR. 
Not likely to EVER be taken by the Axis.
And only 1 move away from “the action”

If folks want to discuss that though, please start a new thread, we are now on the opposite side of the Earth from Yakut :-P

[Jennifer]

Interesting idea, Switch.

And no, you don’t have to hit FIC to get an IC running in India.

4 Infantry, 1 Fighter, 1 AA and 1 IC can defend against a Jap assault, unless Japan goes nuts and decides to take fighters as casualties just to get the Complex…in which case, havn’t you made the money back?

[Nix]

Well i would in any given occasion Hit it with everything i got in order to take it.

It´s a free up and running IC and it´s not so hard to take.

2 Inf. 4 Fig, 1 bomber.

[newpaintbrush]

Well, if you’d like to run aggro Russia in a game, that’s fine; I just have a real good feeling about Germany for that game.

If Japan takes the India complex early, it’s a sweet deal for Japan.  They don’t have to pay the 15 IPC for the industrial complex.  The UK paid 15 IPC for the industrial complex.  Japan can use the complex on J2 if the Allies can’t recapture.  If the Allies CAN recapture, the German front will be weak because units were diverted, and Japan can set up a shuttle to French Indochina to prevent UK from moving east.

[Jennifer]

@Nix:

Well i would in any given occasion Hit it with everything i got in order to take it.

It´s a free up and running IC and it´s not so hard to take.

2 Inf. 4 Fig, 1 bomber.

Great.

You’ll probably loose a fighter to AA gun fire.
After Round 1 you’ll be at 2 Fig, 1 Inf, 1 Bomb vs 2 Inf, 1 Fig
After Round 2 you’ll be at 1 inf, 1 Fig, 1 Bomb vs 1 Fig
After Round 3 you’ll be at 1 inf, 1 Bomber

So for an investment of 15 IPCs I just cost the Japanese 40 IPC in Fighters and 2/3rds of their starting fighters.  Meaning that Pearl was probably hit weak giving America a plum opportunity to sink half the Japanese Navy (because I know you didn’t hit it with 3 fighters, bomber, destroyer and submarine since you used most of that elsewhere.)  And the British Destroyer/Aircraft Carrier are probably still around in SZ 59 which means any transports you built are lightly defended and easily sunk by British aggression again.

All so that on Japan 2 you MIGHT be able to build 3 units on India…of course, who’s to say Russia doesn’t liberate it for England, now that you only have 1 infantry there???  After all, it’s within range of armor in Cauc and it’s worth 10 IPC to keep Japan from using it again on J2…not that they would be able too since England’ll have possession again on UK 2.

[rjclayton]

Jen,

I’d agree 100% here.  If the India complex was built on UK1, my gut tells me you’re almost definitely looking at a KJF anyway.  So the US is probably planning on dropping a navy in the pacific come US1 even before they watch you suicide half your AF.

I would think that there should still plenty of time to set up properly and take down that complex on J2 much more decisively and still get back and defend Japan before the US comes to play.

[newpaintbrush]

@Jennifer:

@Nix:

Well i would in any given occasion Hit it with everything i got in order to take it.

It´s a free up and running IC and it´s not so hard to take.

2 Inf. 4 Fig, 1 bomber.

Great.

You’ll probably loose a fighter to AA gun fire.
After Round 1 you’ll be at 2 Fig, 1 Inf, 1 Bomb vs 2 Inf, 1 Fig
After Round 2 you’ll be at 1 inf, 1 Fig, 1 Bomb vs 1 Fig
After Round 3 you’ll be at 1 inf, 1 Bomber

So for an investment of 15 IPCs I just cost the Japanese 40 IPC in Fighters and 2/3rds of their starting fighters.  Meaning that Pearl was probably hit weak giving America a plum opportunity to sink half the Japanese Navy (because I know you didn’t hit it with 3 fighters, bomber, destroyer and submarine since you used most of that elsewhere.)  And the British Destroyer/Aircraft Carrier are probably still around in SZ 59 which means any transports you built are lightly defended and easily sunk by British aggression again.

All so that on Japan 2 you MIGHT be able to build 3 units on India…of course, who’s to say Russia doesn’t liberate it for England, now that you only have 1 infantry there???  After all, it’s within range of armor in Cauc and it’s worth 10 IPC to keep Japan from using it again on J2…not that they would be able too since England’ll have possession again on UK 2.

Mmmm . . . yeah!  Pretty much!  Although I have my own take on it, which I’ll post in a minute.

[Jennifer]

@rjclayton:

Jen,

I’d agree 100% here.  If the India complex was built on UK1, my gut tells me you’re almost definitely looking at a KJF anyway.  So the US is probably planning on dropping a navy in the pacific come US1 even before they watch you suicide half your AF.

I would think that there should still plenty of time to set up properly and take down that complex on J2 much more decisively and still get back and defend Japan before the US comes to play.

The only time to do a Complex on India is R1.

IC on India, 5 Infantry on England to prevent a Sea Lion attempt.

US Follows with an IC on Sink, w Russian reinforcement and at least a carrier; or two carriers and a fighter.

[Guest]

And Germany scrreams to 50 IPC in 2 turns…

[nooob]

i disagree, with a properly executed kjf then uk can wait to build the ic in ind. probably  uk 3 is the best timing. this gives you the ability to set up a convoy into norway/africa to ensure the ger ipc count get out of control

[Guest]

By UK 3, you won;t have control of India anymore.  Not unless you gave up Africa, AND diverted USSR forces to India in order to keep it…

[newpaintbrush]

If UK builds an IC at India and five infantry on UK1, Japan should not take on J1 if USSR has a realistic chance to retake, precisely because of the heavy cost in fighters of attacking a fortified India, and the subsequent fortification.  (Note:  If building an IC in India, depending on the German build, a UK fighter instead of 5 infantry is often worthwhile).  But the THREAT of Japan taking on J1 is enough to divert Allied forces; a continual Japan threat to India diverts Allied forces while Germany grows stronger.    It is very hard to make progress against a J1 three transport two infantry build, followed by transport/fighter/infantry builds, so the Allies stall out.

To further explain:

If Germany has a strong Baltic fleet and moved the Mediterranean fleet west, the Allies won’t be going anywhere in Europe or Africa anytime soon, and invasion of London is threatened.  So the Allies can unite their fleet southwest of London, and UK London forces of 2 inf 1 art 2 tank 1 fighter (1 tank from W. Canada and 1 fighter) are joined by US forces of 2 inf 1 art 1 tank 1 fighter 1 bomber for total 1 bomber, 6 infantry equivalents on defense, 3 tanks, 2 fighter, 1 AA gun, which is not an entirely robust defense, but sufficient to withstand a decently sized German threat.

This frees the UK airforce to move east, to join the Indian forces.  The UK fighter build also allows the UK to lend additional early support to India.

Of course, if the Germans went heavy on transports, the Allies should respond with 5 inf 3 tank, US sacrificial transports to London (the US transports are easily targetable by the Germans if the Med fleet moved west, or from air from W. Eur), and fighters from Moscow.  In which case the Allies should definitely go KGF; with so much of Germany’s income tied up in transports, Russia will be very strong and Germany very weak.

–

If you wait until UK3 to build an IC, then Japan will certainly smash the IC.  J1 fighters go to Pearl and are out of position, J2 fighters return to Asia, J3 they are in position to hit India.  This combines with J2 transports from Japan to French Indochina, also standard in my games.

[Jennifer]

Assuming a standard German opening, I’d agree.  1 Armor, 1 Fighter, 1 IC is a nice open for England.

Unless you build the IC on Turn 1 or after Berlin falls, then you should not build it at all.  Not that you need too.  Russia with starting equipment from America and England can handle Japan easily enough against most players.  The trick here is to keep Japan from collecting more then 31 IPC a  round so America can easily out produce them and then take islands.

(5 Transports, 5 Infantry, 5 Armor is more then enough to take all 5 islands that are valuable.)  A fleet placement around Solomons is ideal.  From here you can strike at all 5 major island groups simultaniously and you can use what’s left of England to run a screen for your ships against the bulk of the Japanese navy.

Now Japan’s in a quandry.  Repel russian advances or build navy to fight off America?