Expanding on Units - New and OOB Types

LHoffman

In my version forteress cost 6 ipc, and give 4 infantry to defend at 3 for the first turn of combat. max of one forteress par territory.

This, IMO, is a good and necessary addition. Increasing infantry defense for Rd.1 is critical and a big deal.

Narvik

@LHoffman:

It may not be necessary, but it seems logical that you would also institute a rule that any pre-battle bombardment shots would hit blockhouses first (before taking other units as casualties). This could be good or bad… blockhouses could act as hit absorbers but they would have to be cheap if so. It also would be odd to let blockhouses fire after they have been hit by a battleship or artillery pre-fire. Just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

The big idea with a bunker is to protect the men and weapons. If a blockhouse don’t absorb a hit, then there is no point in purchasing it. Its like a Battleship, they are designed to take a lot of beating. The Blockhouses at Omaha beach took a lot of beating from both Battleships and Bombers, but still survived to deal with the infantry in landing crafts

Narvik

@GODLEADER:

In my version forteress cost 6 ipc, and give 4 infantry to defend at 3 for the first turn of combat. max of one forteress par territory.

Even if its look playable for this game, I don’t like it because in the real world a fortress unit have different weapons, training and supply needs than a mobile infantry unit. The French fortress divisions in the Maginot Line could not be used in an attack against Germany because they only had defensive weapons. Barbed wire, mines, concrete and heavy mortars are not of much use in attacks.

And the other way, if an infantry unit is placed in a bunker line or trench, they keep their infantry weapons so their firepower stay the same. Your 6 IPC investment pays for the concrete, not big guns. If anything, the dug in infantry unit should defend at 1, since they have now lost their mobility. But they should take two hits to kill since they are now protected by concrete bunkers.

Me, I prefer a dedicated Blockhouse unit. It should not boost other units, because combined arms bonuses at the WWII time was only in attacks.

LHoffman

@Narvik:

@LHoffman:

It may not be necessary, but it seems logical that you would also institute a rule that any pre-battle bombardment shots would hit blockhouses first (before taking other units as casualties). This could be good or bad… blockhouses could act as hit absorbers but they would have to be cheap if so. It also would be odd to let blockhouses fire after they have been hit by a battleship or artillery pre-fire. Just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

The big idea with a bunker is to protect the men and weapons. If a blockhouse don’t absorb a hit, then there is no point in purchasing it. Its like a Battleship, they are designed to take a lot of beating. The Blockhouses at Omaha beach took a lot of beating from both Battleships and Bombers, but still survived to deal with the infantry in landing crafts

By saying that blockhouses “absorb” a hit, do you mean that they actually take 2 hits to destroy, similar to a battleship? To me, every unit is able to “absorb a hit”; battleships and carriers can just absorb one more than everything else.

@Narvik:

@GODLEADER:

In my version forteress cost 6 ipc, and give 4 infantry to defend at 3 for the first turn of combat. max of one forteress par territory.

Even if its look playable for this game, I don’t like it because in the real world a fortress unit have different weapons, training and supply needs than a mobile infantry unit. The French fortress divisions in the Maginot Line could not be used in an attack against Germany because they only had defensive weapons. Barbed wire, mines, concrete and heavy mortars are not of much use in attacks.

And the other way, if an infantry unit is placed in a bunker line or trench, they keep their infantry weapons so their firepower stay the same. Your 6 IPC investment pays for the concrete, not big guns. If anything, the dug in infantry unit should defend at 1, since they have now lost their mobility. But they should take two hits to kill since they are now protected by concrete bunkers.

Me, I prefer a dedicated Blockhouse unit. It should not boost other units, because combined arms bonuses at the WWII time was only in attacks.

Unfortunately, the level of abstraction in A&A prohibits true-to-life modeling of tactical interactions; we need to simplify and generalize. I see nothing wrong with giving infantry a +1 on defense with a fortification. Hearkens back to some of the Strategic Advantages in Revised (Dug in Defenders, Atlantic Wall and Fortress Europe). If anything, infantry’s limited weapons would be concentrated in specific areas where the enemy had to attack, giving their defense capabilities even greater impact.

If infantry firepower stays the same, their defense should not change. Reducing infantry defense in such a manner seems like a sure way to get people to NOT buy fortification pieces. If a blockhouse can already “absorb a hit” (or two hits?) it would be entirely redundant to allow infantry units to take yet another hit.

LHoffman

Another issue with Fortification pieces in A&A is that you can’t really represent how they are physically oriented. For example, the Maginot line was only effective if attacked from Germany directly. If Germany attacked from the North or behind (how they circumvented it), the fortifications were essentially useless. I believe that in HBG’s Global War 39 they addressed this by stating in the rules each starting fortification’s orientation and how they benefit the defender.

Some system would have to be developed for newly built fortifications to account for the orientation factor. Particularly if Germany is to build them along the coast of France. Maybe you need two unit types: a blockhouse for coastal defense and a fortification for non-coastal defense? If the Allies break through in Normandy and they attack Holland (where Germany built a blockhouse), does the blockhouse add to defense or get to defend and absorb hits or is it simply discarded since it is not oriented for a land assault?

Another thing to consider is whether or not either or both of these units have integral (field sized) guns, or if they are simply concrete bunkers giving defensive bonuses.

Narvik

A lot of rational questions.

As I stated in my first post, the Blockhouse must be placed on a coast or frontier, faced against the unfriendly space. I don’t know how to phrase it in a rulebook so everybody understand.
See attached pic how I imagine the Blockhouses being placed.

I figure that during a frontal attack against a defending Blockhouse, the Blockhouse will roll a preemptive high value dice, like 3 or less, maybe 4 or less. This is because the attackers don’t have much firepower when stuck in a Landing Craft, they need to hit the beach and drive the Tanks onshore before they can shoot back, and at this time most of the attackers are killed. Its pretty much the same when attacking the Maginot or Siegfried Lines, the attackers have to cross rivers, minefields and barbed wire, while being barraged and shelled, before they reach the Blockhouse and can start the actual attack.

Now this is the reason that frontal attacks against Blockhouses were so rare. The attackers always tried to by-pass it, or circumvent it as you say. And in that case, when circumvented, or after a breakthrough, then the Blockhouse is pretty much defenseless. So that justify a preemptive defense roll of 3 or less for the first round of combat when attacked in front, and a general defense roll of 1 for the rest of that turn, and no combat value at all when the attack come from another direction.

The primary job of a Blockhouse is to survive, so it must takes two hits to kill, just like a Battleship. When I say absorb one hit, I really say the Blockhouse absorb the first hit, and need an extra hit to be killed. This is the special ability of concrete bunkers, they die hard.

Good question. The Tank unit is not just some vehicles that you need an infantry unit to fill, so why should the Blockhouse unit be a concrete shell with no guns or men, so you need an infantry unit to fill it ?
I like the Blockhouse unit to represent a fortificated line with bunkers, barbed wire, minefields, big guns, machine guns and crew.

Another question, that I have no rational answers to, is the sequenced fire. AA-guns fire preemptive, Subs can in some cases fire preemptive, and a Blockhouse too should fire preemptive. Then we can ask, why cant Battleship shore bombardment be preemptive like it used to be in the early editions ? If you don’t want your infantry in Normandy to be killed by ships, then just build a Blockhouse. This start a slipperi slope of course, should paratroopers and Bombers roll preemptive too ? Or maybe there should be no preemptive fire ? After all, there never were any AA-fire so strong it whipped out all 500 planes before any could drop any bombs. Usually the Flak killed one or two planes, then the rest of the 500 planes dropped their bombs. Of course that would take the excitement out of SBR and make it a dull game.

Narvik

Back to topic. In the 90thies we had this Enemy in the Horizon supplement to the classic MB ed, with destroyers, paratroopers and heavy artillery.

I loved the Heavy Artillery unit. It cost 6, and could attack in two ways. Either a one time preemptive barrage of an adjacent territory by two dices with 3 or less as hits. Or in general combat with 4 or less as hit. It was weak in defense with only a 2 or less as hit.

Historically no gun was ever so big, or heavy, that it could kill 2 armies of 100 000 men in another country just by shelling, of course.

But it was cool.

attached pic of the units

GODLEADER

The 3 in defence for infantry is for the advandage in the fort…

GODLEADER

And for fortification absorb hit. Is False, the big majoritie of battleship and bomber do no have direct hit of fortification on D-Day.

LHoffman

@Narvik:

I figure that during a frontal attack against a defending Blockhouse, the Blockhouse will roll a preemptive high value dice, like 3 or less, maybe 4 or less. This is because the attackers don’t have much firepower when stuck in a Landing Craft, they need to hit the beach and drive the Tanks onshore before they can shoot back, and at this time most of the attackers are killed. Its pretty much the same when attacking the Maginot or Siegfried Lines, the attackers have to cross rivers, minefields and barbed wire, while being barraged and shelled, before they reach the Blockhouse and can start the actual attack.

I don’t have issue with that. I think it is a good way to make a blockhouse a more valuable unit. However, it also needs to be paired with the battleship bombardment topic below…

@Narvik:

Now this is the reason that frontal attacks against Blockhouses were so rare. The attackers always tried to by-pass it, or circumvent it as you say. And in that case, when circumvented, or after a breakthrough, then the Blockhouse is pretty much defenseless. So that justify a preemptive defense roll of 3 or less for the first round of combat when attacked in front, and a general defense roll of 1 for the rest of that turn, and no combat value at all when the attack come from another direction.

This is pretty accurate I would say, but there are a lot of moving parts. As in, there are a number of changing roll attributes based on defender orientation, attacker orientation and combat cycle. I have no problem following it, but I could see how in the game this could become frustrating.

@Narvik:

The primary job of a Blockhouse is to survive, so it must takes two hits to kill, just like a Battleship. When I say absorb one hit, I really say the Blockhouse absorb the first hit, and need an extra hit to be killed. This is the special ability of concrete bunkers, they die hard.

I also wouldn’t have a problem with this if it makes a blockhouse more valuable. I agree that as a fortification unit, some level of toughness or resiliency to attack should be accentuated. Taking (2) hits to destroy is a very apt representation of that. I also think that will make the attacker think twice about his move. Attacking any unit that can take (2) hits deserves careful consideration. Whatever Fortification Unit devised should instill that fear.

@Narvik:

Good question. The Tank unit is not just some vehicles that you need an infantry unit to fill, so why should the Blockhouse unit be a concrete shell with no guns or men, so you need an infantry unit to fill it ?
I like the Blockhouse unit to represent a fortificated line with bunkers, barbed wire, minefields, big guns, machine guns and crew.

I agree here also and I didn’t mean to imply that I suggested otherwise. Even as a typical blockhouse, the fortification unit should have some defense values of its own, independent of infantry or other units. Due to collection of machine guns, mortars, mines, etc… and basic infantry that staff the emplacements.

I was more getting at the distinction between blockhouses or other infantry based fortifications and fortified field-gun emplacements/anti-siege weapons. A blockhouse (aka pillbox type structures) are not the same as coastal gun emplacements with 12-inch cannons.

versus

Not the same. Would require different rules.

Unless of course you just wanted to totally simplify and have one fortification unit and be done with it.

@Narvik:

Another question, that I have no rational answers to, is the sequenced fire. AA-guns fire preemptive, Subs can in some cases fire preemptive, and a Blockhouse too should fire preemptive. Then we can ask, why cant Battleship shore bombardment be preemptive like it used to be in the early editions ? If you don’t want your infantry in Normandy to be killed by ships, then just build a Blockhouse.

The reason for having battleship bombardment is to simulate what battleships would be used for in an amphibious assault. This is not killing enemy infantry and tanks before landing troops. It is to destroy beach and coastal fortifications in order to clear a path for assault troops. Unfortunately, OOB rules do not include fortifications, so hits have to be applied to other units.

Arguably, battleship bombardment is too tactical of an ability for A&A and could be removed from the game. It doesn’t scale well and that is why the rule was revised: so defending units that get hit could still return fire. In real life, that would not happen. Likewise, as you pointed out, battleships or other heavy guns would be completely incapable of wiping out even a single division of soldiers, let alone about 20 in a given territory. Blockhouses/fortifications could alleviate this. Battleships should fire first and any hits should be removed before the next phase. As a defender, you would probably choose to apply these hits to your blockhouses first since they should be able to take (2) hits a piece and, IMO, they should either be cheap to build and have low hitting power or they should be moderately expensive with good hitting power. May have to look at limiting the number of blockhouses per territory somehow though.

Narvik

Good post, LHoffman and + to you.

For the record, when I say blockhouse, I talk about big coastal guns in casemates, like the Atlantic Wall or the Maginot Line or other strong fortifications, not a simple bunker, pillbox or foxhole that the infantry division dig when they are defending. I figure that barbed wire and trenches are what makes the infantry unit defend on 2 or less.

Come to think about it, it should be no preemptive fire, maybe not even for AA-guns. No matter how heavy the bombardment or shelling, someone always survive to shot back

LHoffman

@Narvik:

Good post, LHoffman and + to you.

Thanks man, same to you. I enjoy a good academic conversation.

@Narvik:

For the record, when I say blockhouse, I talk about big coastal guns in casemates, like the Atlantic Wall or the Maginot Line or other strong fortifications, not a simple bunker, pillbox or foxhole that the infantry division dig when they are defending. I figure that barbed wire and trenches are what makes the infantry unit defend on 2 or less.

Okay, I understand. Defining our terms is important. Otherwise we will be eternally confused or at odds. Ultimately the terminology itself is less important than what we intend that it stands for.

@Narvik:

Come to think about it, it should be no preemptive fire, maybe not even for AA-guns. No matter how heavy the bombardment or shelling, someone always survive to shot back

This is true. And yet another unfortunate aspect of combat at this scale. With AA fire for example, say 2 bombers attack Germany in an SBR. One gets shot down by AA. That is a 50% casualty rate. I don’t think any large Allied bomber force ever suffered that kind of attrition, it is ridiculous and unrealistic. However, it is just the way the game works.

I believe preemptive fire has its place, it just needs to be carefully considered or regulated in different situations (AA, bombardment, sub, etc…).

toblerone77

Haven’t chimed in on one of theses for a while as I have been actively playing other games. I have an idea for my own variant of A&A that will be slaughtering many a sacred cow.

Here’s the general idea. The new units (HBG Table Tactics OOB mods) will be awarded as free techs each turn determined by die roll. The game will be heavily based on luck and weapons will be extremely up-gunned via extra dice. The game will be strictly for fun, and most importantly, for speed and ease of play.

It’s not entirely fleshed out but the hope is to have it ready for the holiday season.

LHoffman

Well, as long as you admit to it being different and for those reasons, I see no issues. I am interested to see what exactly you come up with.

Expanding on Units - New and OOB Types

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