The Panama Canal is a good example of what could be called an “asymmetrical-benefit objective”
That’s very well-put, CWO Marc. In case I wasn’t clear before, I believe that objectives that were historically asymmetrical should always offer an in-game benefit to only one side. If you want to make that benefit more radical, you can do that by increasing the size of the benefit.
For example, suppose you think Panama was just the most important territory in the whole world, and you want a 30 IPC swing, but you agree that Japan would not have been able to make economic use of the territory. So, give the USA 30 IPCs/turn if and only if it controls Panama, and then Japan (or Germany) can try to deny America the use of the canal in order to inflict major pain on the American economy.
Conversely, suppose you think Malta was of only minor importance, so you want no more than a 4 IPC swing, but you agree that Malta would have been symmetrically useful for both the UK and Italy. So, make Malta worth 2 IPCs for Italy if it controls Malta, and 2 IPCs for the UK if it controls Malta, and then you’ll have the right-sized swing while maintaining symmetry.
The examples are just examples – the point is that symmetry and size are two different variables, and we should strive to tailor each of them appropriately for each objective.
I still maintained that economical (Industrial in IPC) values and strategic (Progress in IPC) values (such as cutting enemy’s resources access ways) should be rewarded.
As far as I understand balancing working on BMode, NOs bonus play a major part in it.
At the actual development stage, I believe these numbers should not be totally determined and fixed in cold stone. However, I believe major NOs centered around resources and communication ways should be generally described as symetric or asymetric per side as more beneficial to one or more powers.
That way, it may gives a general guideline to ascribe general values, such as Skageratt strait worth both sides but less to one, so can be +5 Germany vs +3 for Allies, or Normandy could worth a lot to Germany +10 but +5 to UK and US Allies, still making an even exchange. Just for the example.
However, giving a lot to one side and nothing in return, but in an impossible zone to fight for will be like giving a free +10 when at war.
I cannot not insist IPC should mean something like Industrial or Income and Progress Credits.
The real increase in production is on as most as possible peaceful home-land. Destroying assets is never a way to increase production capacity. Engineering can do a lot on productivity but with destroyed equipment it is hard to improve production.
@Imperious:
I would like to see some NO’s randomized or areas like VC provide some randomized cash bonus.
Like capture Baku get one D6 roll per turn representing oil from this region. Or alternatively, if say Italy closes the Suez, the British player loses random D6 roll of cash per turn. Some captured areas represent not much for the new owner, but a strategic cost to the original owner.
The game only represents “if you take this, you get this” Sometimes if you take this, you gain nothing but the original player loses something.
Rostov-on-Don oil field
You mean Maykop oil center? Rostov doesn’t have any oil, its just the “gateway to the Caucasus”, so if you control it you can supply any point south or east
I’m not against this kind of random bonus/penalty but it introduce a bit more complexity.
Once created on Triple A, it is automatically generated but on tabletop, it is another issue along Convoy Disruption/Raiding rolls.
along Convoy Disruption/Raiding rolls.
That brings up another point. The map should have by those convoy boxes a value in total IPC that can be removed from the enemy, not unlike the HBG Global 1936 map
It would just make the “juicy” areas that can be raided more currency, because players under appreciate this strategy. Its simple to count the potential rewards, but it speeds up play to know instantly the info
Yeahs its definite a downside that more information isn’t represented directly on the map. We tried to come up with some simplified convoy systems using roundels, or sz with a value marker. Right now in tripleA the convoy and blockade option does offer at least a sz control marker, which I think helps. But yeah this is an area where I think we could do some good.
On the asymmetry/symmetry thing, I think for VCs (and to a certain extent the printed ipc values on the OOB map) you have some suspension of disbelief going on in the OOB game already, where the values are universal for both sides. NO’s on the other hand seem to have been designed from the outset with the idea of trying to somehow get at the asymmetry in a way that feels more realistic. It’s just a little unfortunate that the associated goals don’t have any visual to accompany them on the game map. Not sure there’s a whole lot we can do about that, though I like the idea of keeping the total number of NO’s and number of associated TT’s or SZs a bit easier to memorize/manage.
I think its great when the game rewards players for knowing their history, and that’s where the NO’s really come into play. But the OOB game does require a fair amount of rote memorization or referencing (and has some oddities, even for people who are well studied) so I still see a lot of areas where we could streamline it.
I love the Income and Progress Credit idea that Marc offered up, as a way to make the money in this game more flexible. At least the “Progress” part gives us way to blur the lines a little, if we need to make an NO more symmetrical than it might have been in reality, just so the gameplay doesn’t skew too hard in a game breaking direction, or as a corrective for those situations where the base economy of a specific nation can’t function without a certain amount of money coming in on the regular. I definitely prefer the idea of NO’s focused on TT’s in contention rather than at the core of a nations home territories, so it can be an incentive for the give and take.
I think I kind of agree with Arg and IL about the approach to Vichy. It seems pretty challenging to make them a full blown player-nation, and would probably lean towards giving control of those TT’s to one side or the other. But I also like the idea of simplified Free France player that works the way China does without a capital. I like the idea that France might behave in a somewhat similar way, once its capital is occupied. A long time back, I suggested the idea of giving China an occupied Capital at Nanking/Shanghai, with the idea that the reason their rules are so peculiar is because they begin play with an occupied capital. Not sure if others liked the idea. In this case the Kiangsu VT would basically be doing double duty, servicing both Shanghai and Nanking. And perhaps if it recovered, maybe it awards China with a more normalized style of gameplay? Don’t know if it would really work, but in any case I do like the idea of giving the Free French something more to work with if they are preserved as a full nation, like a way to spawn units (either with an autospawn, or with a military base) or to collect income somehow.
Yeahs its definite a downside that more information isn’t represented directly on the map. We tried to come up with some simplified convoy systems using roundels, or sz with a value marker. Right now in tripleA the convoy and blockade option does offer at least a sz control marker, which I think helps. But yeah this is an area where I think we could do some good.
On the asymmetry/symmetry thing, I think for VCs (and to a certain extent the printed ipc values on the OOB map) you have some suspension of disbelief going on in the OOB game already, where the values are universal for both sides. NO’s on the other hand seem to have been designed from the outset with the idea of trying to somehow get at the asymmetry in a way that feels more realistic. It’s just a little unfortunate that the associated goals don’t have any visual to accompany them on the game map. Not sure there’s a whole lot we can do about that, though I like the idea of keeping the total number of NO’s and number of associated TT’s or SZs a bit easier to memorize/manage.I think its great when the game rewards players for knowing their history, and that’s where the NO’s really come into play. But the OOB game does require a fair amount of rote memorization or referencing (and has some oddities, even for people who are well studied) so I still see a lot of areas where we could streamline it.
I love the Income and Progress Credit idea that Marc offered up, as a way to make the money in this game more flexible. At least the “Progress” part gives us way to blur the lines a little, if we need to make an NO more symmetrical than it might have been in reality, just so the gameplay doesn’t skew too hard in a game breaking direction, or as a corrective for those situations where the base economy of a specific nation can’t function without a certain amount of money coming in on the regular. I definitely prefer the idea of NO’s focused on TT’s in contention rather than at the core of a nations home territories, so it can be an incentive for the give and take.
One things which might be helpful, if enough Control Marker available could be, for tabletop, to write bonus number on white side, then let each player put its markers on specific NOs zone or TTy.
If Hawaii worth 10 IPCs for Japan, you place this 10 visible, when captured you flip this token to Japan flag symbol. That way, all players will see which TTs are in contention. And may look under token to see which power it benefits. For Gibraltar, 2 #5$ tokens one from UK and one from Italy can be left on Gibraltar. UK would be upside while Italy NCMarker would be upside down so 5$ would be visible…
But I also like the idea of simplified Free France player that works the way China does without a capital. I like the idea that France might behave in a somewhat similar way, once its capital is occupied. A long time back, I suggested the idea of giving China an occupied Capital at Nanking/Shanghai, with the idea that the reason their rules are so peculiar is because they begin play with an occupied capital.
This. All of the this! So much this. +1. Like. Upvote.
The exact same rules should apply from nation to nation, and those rules should include two ways of producing units: one if you have your capital, and one if you don’t have your capital.
If you do control your capital, you collect cash from your territories, and then you spend your cash at a factory or at an appropriate base to build whatever kinds of units you want. You’re vulnerable to strategic bombing, and if you lose your capital, you get looted.
If you don’t control your capital, you don’t collect any cash, but for every 2 territories you control, you can place one infantry in any territory you control, and if you control at least 6 territories, then you can also place one artillery in a territory you control, or one transport in a sea zone adjacent to a territory you control. There’s nothing to bomb, and nothing to loot.
It’s simple! It accounts for France, it accounts for China, it accounts for Russia if Moscow falls, it accounts for New Zealand if Sydney falls, it accounts for Canada if London falls – it covers all your bases. It’s good. :-)
Except China had a second capital which operated out of Chung King after they lost Nanking.
@Der:
Except China had a second capital which operated out of Chung King after they lost Nanking.
Yes, but Chunking isn’t shown on the A&A OOB map. The closest it come to being shown on the OOB Global map is the little dot at the northern end of the Burma Road.
But anyway, I quite agree with Argothair’s point that the loss of a capital shouldn’t prohibit a player from buying infantry; at the most, it should simply modify the conditions under which troops can be purchased. In real-world terms, it’s hard to rationalize in a believable way the concept that the loss of a capital prevents a nation at war from enlisting troops, especially if the “nation” in question is a global empire like Britain. To go back to China’s case as an illustration of this point: Mao’s Communists were able to raise troops during the Japanese occupation, even though Mao not only didn’t have a real “capital” but also wasn’t even China’s official government. Similarly, Charles de Gaulle was able to raise the Free French Forces while based in London (where he ran what was from his perspective a government in exile and what was from the Vichy perspective a pack of expatriate traitors).
It could even be argued that, propaganda-wise, the loss of a nation’s capital is potentially a powerful recruiting tool for new infantry recruits – something along the lines of, “Join the army and help free our capital from the [fill in the blank] barbarians!” The Soviets did pretty much the same thing during the battle of Stalingrad (“Its very stones are sacred”), and Stalingrad wasn’t even the USSR’s capital (though it did have the highly symbolic value of bearing Stalin’s name). The “join the army and free our capital!” recruitment pitch is a lot more plausible than a scenario in which (for example) Washington D.C. is invaded and occupied by (let’s say) hostile Martians, and US Army recruiters all over the rest of the country are told by potential recruits, “Sorry, I can’t join the Army unless we control our own capital. It says so right here in the rulebook.”
Have you come up with a victory condition for the G40 game yet ?
Nope, still on table to discuss options and details. Only general guidelines were given by Black Elk.
When talking on what kind of conditions we are looking for.
Yeah I think the short answer there SS is “no” for the otherwise OOB game, but “almost” for a ruleset which incorporates additional VCS.
Just to reinforce the last few points coming in by Argothair and CWOMarc, it is entirely possible that the introduction of this general rule alone may balance the game by sides. Since the OOB game operates under the assumption that seizing national capital will prevent it from spawning any units at all.
You can imagine for example that the Free French would still have enough territory just in sub-saharan Africa, to at least spawn 1 infantry a round, potentially more if North Africa, Normandy or FIC were still in play. That right there could have an impact on the Cairo balance. Similarly if the Russians had a way to continue spawning hitpoints after Moscow collapses this could also allow for a fighting retreat or a way to throw up more road blocks vs Axis advance in the endgame. The same again for a Sea Lion type game where London falls early on. For practical purposes the rule is more advantageous to Allies since they are the team with more player nations, and with nations more vulnerable to capital capture as a matter of course. Though in the deep endgame, Axis may likewise benefit, if Rome, Tokyo or Berlin fell to the Allies but any of those nations still controlled territories on the game map.
I would not be sure of the best way to word a universal rule. I like Arg’s formation which reads a bit more like the AA50 China rules (with some tweaks.) I’m not sure how much of the OOB China rules we need to change, they could still have the limited roster and Burma etc, for their Pre industrial status, but just giving a nation with no capital the option to spawn infantry in territories they control would be pretty cool.
I also kind of liked that idea about possibly allowing transports or Artillery, if the nation controls enough territory (which would help a Nation like UK or France or Anzac to potentially recover their territory at some point if things go well for them.) Still a very limited roster compared to normal conditions.
Or I suppose if you wanted to maintain parity with China, this could involve a basic movement restriction, where the troops opperate only in originally controlled territories if that makes sense to do. I think that rule makes some sense for the China balance, though I’ve never particularly liked it, not sure so much about its application to the French. Seems like it would be kind of counter productive if the goal is to make the Free French more entertaining to play (or a possible Free Russia or Free British or whatever.)
If such a rule made it in, I’d be pretty happy. It’s something that I think could work for either board.
I would not be sure of the best way to word a universal rule. I like Arg’s formation which reads a bit more like the AA50 China rules (with some tweaks.) I’m not sure how much of the OOB China rules we need to change, they could still have the limited roster and Burma etc, for their Pre industrial status, but just giving a nation with no capital the option to spawn infantry in territories they control would be pretty cool.
If it turns out that Argo’s proposed mechanism needs to be adjusted in some way (for instance if, hypothetically, the proposal works well for some countries but not for others), an extra variable that could be factored in would be population. The USSR and China both had very large populations at the time of WWII, so turning a certain percentage of that population into infantry obviously produces greater numbers than turning the same percentage of a less-populated country’s population into infantry. (Or, to look at it another way: to produce 10,000 infantrymen, the USSR and China need to draw upon a smaller percentage of their population than a less-populated country would have to do). A related point is that producing infantrymen is less capital-intensive (i.e. is cheaper) and requires less of an industrial base than producing tanks or airplanes. This is why the production of infantrymen is particularly suited to the USSR and China, because both had large populations in WWII and both were less industrialized (and in China’s case a LOT less industralized) than the US and the UK.
I like the proposed changes to India. I’m indifferent on the W. Canada naval base.
I think Panama should have a naval base, and should be part of a major NO for the USA based on tropical naval supremacy, e.g., +10 for USA if Allies control all of Panama, Mexico, West Indies, and Central America and there are no Axis submarines in Caribbean or Panama Sea Zone.
This reflects the fact that Panama was useful to American shipping, not to Japanese shipping. The loss of Panama would have seriously weakened the US economy and US morale, but I don’t think it would have boosted Japan’s economy or forced the US to negotiate a separate peace. I’m not dead set against making Panama a VC, but as other commenter have pointed out, it’s awkward to have a Japanese VC target on the ETO gameboard.
What about this Argothair:
Compared to OOB USA NOs, this seems nerfed a lot:
USA:
+10 at War
+1 for each Axis island under US control (Pacific and European theaters).
+5 if at War and Allies control Normandy
+5 one time bonus for each Kamikazi island captured by Allies.OOB:
If all basic TTs are US, it is +10 (EUSA, CUSA,WUSA)
+5 (Alaska, Aleutian, Hawaii, Johnston and Line)
+5 (Mexico, SEMexico, Central America and West Indies)Balance Mode:
Japan
- 5 PUs if Axis controls Dutch New Guinea, New Guinea, New Britain and Solomon Islands. (This modifies Japan’s “Strategic Perimeter” objective).
- 5 PUs if Axis controls Midway, Wake Island, Guam.
- 3 PUs if Japan controls Iwo Jima and Okinawa and is at war with the USA
USA
- 5 PUs if USA is at war and Allies control Midway, Wake Island, Guam.
- 5 PUs if USA is at war and Allies control Marshall Islands, Caroline Islands, Paulau Island, Marianas.
- 5 PUs if Allies control at least 2 of: Normandy Bordeaux, Holland Belgium, Southern France, and USA has at least one land unit in any of these territories.
- 5 PUs if Allies control Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia, and USA has at least one land unit in any of these territories.
I know this to much of NOs, but it allows some choice amongst them.
Which ones do you prefer?
Maybe it can provide a general direction to make simpler and more accurate ones.
Offensive USA NOs:
+5 if at War and Allies control Normandy
Theme: Opening a Western European Second Front
+5 one time bonus for each Kamikazi island captured by Allies.
Theme: Moving war in enemy’s own territories and SZs. (Max.: 5*6 = 30 IPCs)
(Formosa, Philippines, Okinawa, Iwo Jima, Mariannas and Japan)
+1 for each Axis island under US control (Pacific and European theaters).
Theme: USA is an active Allies member in war. (Max.: 10 IPCs= 8 PTO+2 ETO)
Defensive USA NOs,
National Sovereignty issues theme: (Max.: 4*5= 20 IPCs)
+5 bonus each, if all basic TTs in each group A, B, C & D are USA:
A- Pacific Islands:
+5 (Midway, Hawaii, Wake, Johnston and Line)
B- Continental North America:
+5 (Aleutian and Alaska)
C- Continental Central America:
+5 (Mexico, South Eastern Mexico, Central America and West Indies)
Same as OOB Theme: Defense treaty and trade obligations.
D- Control of Vital US communication access ways:
+5 Panama’s Canal: Central America AND no Axis submarines in Caribbean (SZ89) or Panama (SZ64) Sea Zones.
That way USA income also stay around normal.
It provides a incentive for USA to defend them and for Japan to invade at least 1 of each group and especially to target Panama’s canal as a way to undercut 10 IPCs from USA.
JAPAN:
Japan Defensive NOs:
+5 if not at War with West.
+5 if not at War with Russia.
Japan Offensive NOs:
+10 if Japan controls Philippines, Guam, Wake, Hawaii and Midway?
Theme: capture of 5 vital US Pacific bases and strategic outer defense perimeter.
+5 for each, if Japan controls Panama OR Aleutian and Alaska OR New South Wales (Sydney)
Theme: capture of vital Allies PTO intelligence and communication centers.
+1 for each Allied Pacific island under Japanese control.
Sounds good to me!
Sounds good to me!
Would you prefer that one?
D- Control of Vital US communication access ways theme could be:
+5 Panama’s Canal: Central America AND no Axis submarines in Caribbean or Panama Sea Zone.
Yes, that sounds even better to me.
Yes, that sounds even better to me.
Cool.
I made a few changes amongst that one on Sub.
I like it because it allows Axis to forbid a 5 IPCs NO to USA.
Keep in mind the game was tuned to the existing NO’s, so that income given to players on balance needs to be equal and the ability to aquire any new NO’s needs to be just as difficult or easy as before.
Panama needs to be important, but perhaps it should be a reverse NO. If the axis capture it , US loses 5 IPC. To gain 5 IPC for already having something is just adding income to the game which in turn adds time because your buying more units with more income and it will take longer to destroy more units. Panama is a really easy “objective” so you really just gave the US player a freebee.
Have you considered this?
ANZAC:
+3 for each Allied controlled territory, if at War with Japan: Solomons, New Guinea, Dutch New Guinea, New Britain, Malaya.
OOB
5 IPCs if an Allied power controls Malaya and ANZAC controls all of its original territories.
Theme: Malaya considered strategic cornerstone to Far East British Empire.5 IPCs if the Allies (not including the Dutch) control Dutch New Guinea, New Guinea, New Britain, and the Solomon Islands.
Theme:Strategic outer defense perimeter.
+2 for each Allied controlled territory
Solomons, New Guinea, Dutch New Guinea, New Britain, Malaya
Theme:
+5 for each Allied controlled territory
Burma, Malaya, Kwangtung.
OOB
When the United Kingdom Is at War with Japan (awarded to the Pacific economy):
- 5 IPCs if the United Kingdom controls both Kwangtung and Malaya.
Theme: Maintenance of the empire considered vital national objective.
+2 for each Allied controlled territory
Burma
Malaya
Kwangtung
OOB
When the United Kingdom Is at War in Europe (awarded to the Europe economy):
- 5 IPCs if the United Kingdom controls all of its original territories in its European economy.
Theme: Maintenance of the empire considered vital national objective.
+2 for each
Gibraltar, Malta, Greece, Crete and Cyprus.
+5 each
Denmark
Normandy.
OOB
When Italy Is at War:
- 5 IPCs if there are no Allied surface warships in the Mediterranean sea (sea zones 92 through 99).
Theme: Propaganda and strategic advantage.
- 5 IPCs if Axis powers control at least 3 of the following territories: Gibraltar, Southern France, Greece, and Egypt.
Theme: Stated national objectives Greater Roman Empire.
+5 IPCs if Axis powers control all of the following territories: Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Tobruk, and Alexandria.
Theme: Stated North African military objectives.
+2 IPCs per territory if Italy controls Iraq, Persia, and/or Northwest Persia.
Theme: Access to strategic oil reserves.ITALY NOs:
+1 for each Allied territory that touches the Mediterranean Sea controlled by Axis. (Max.: 13 IPCs)
+5 if no Allied surface warships in the Mediterranean OR Gibraltar is Axis captured OR Suez Canal (Egypt and Trans-Jordan) is Axis controlled.
Theme: Control of Allied waterways and vital communication centers.OOB:
National Objective and Bonus Income: Germany’s objective is Lebensraum (living space). Extra space was needed for the growth of the German population for a greater Germany. To reflect this objective, Germany collects bonus IPC income during each of its Collect Income phases in the following situations.
When Germany Is Not at War with the Soviet Union:
+5 IPCs representing wheat and oil from the Soviet Union.
Theme: Beneficial trade with the Soviet Union.When Germany Is at War with the Soviet Union:
+5 IPCs per territory if Germany controls Novgorod (Leningrad), Volgograd (Stalingrad), and/or Russia (Moscow).
Theme: High strategic and propaganda value.
+5 IPCs if an Axis power controls Caucasus. Theme: Control of vital Soviet oil production.When Germany Is at War with the United Kingdom and France:
+5 IPCs if at least 1 German land unit is in Axis-controlled Egypt.
Theme: Gateway to the Middle East oilfields (high propaganda value).
+5 IPCs if Germany controls both Denmark and Norway while Sweden is neither pro-Allies nor Allies-controlled.
Theme: Access to iron ore and other strategic resources.
+2 IPCs per territory if Germany controls Iraq, Persia, and/or Northwest Persia.
Theme: Access to strategic oil reserves.REDESIGN
GERMANY:
+5 if not at War with Russia
+5 for each Axis controlled territory: England, Volgograd, Novgorod, Russia, Caucasus, Egypt, Iraq, (Persia and/or Northwest Persia ?).
+5 for control of Norway and Denmark together, if Sweden is neutral.
+5 for control of Normandy and Holland together.OOB
When the Soviet Union Is at War in Europe:
+5 IPCs if the convoy in sea zone 125 is free of Axis warships, Archangel is controlled by the Soviet Union, and there are no units belonging to other Allied powers present in any territories originally controlled by the Soviet Union.
Theme: National prestige and access to Allied Lend-Lease material.
+3 IPCs for each original German, Italian, or pro-Axis neutral territory that the Soviet Union controls.
Theme: Propaganda value and spread of communism.
+10 IPCs (one time only) the first time the Soviet Union controls Germany (Berlin).
Theme: National prestige.REDESIGN
RUSSIA:
+5 if not at war with Japan.
+2 for each Axis territories under Soviet control.
+5 if at War, for each open supply route: Persian Corridor, Pacific Route ALSIB Northern Trace, Arctic Route.
I have nothing against framing the NO as a negative income effect, but we are proposing so many changes to so many different systems that I think it’s hopeless to expect any kind of Allies v. Axis balance to persist from the OOB version, which, itself, was not really all that balanced. We will have to sort out balance through playtesting once we’ve got a complete rough draft.
