G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions)

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    OK full list

    Sphere of Influence Violations:
    -10 ipcs from Russian income, if Western units in Soviet territories.
    -10 ipcs from British income, if Soviet units in Western territories.
    -10 ipcs from German income, if Japanese units in European Axis territories.
    -10 ipcs from Japanese income, if European Axis units in Japanese territories.

    NAP Violations:
    -10 ipcs one time aggressor penalty if Japan is first to break the non aggression treaty.
    -10 ipcs one time aggressor penalty if Russia is first to break the non aggression treaty.

    Objective Bonuses

    GERMANY:
    +5 if not at War with Russia
    +5 for each Axis controlled territory: England, Volgograd, Novgorod, Russia, Caucasus, Egypt, Iraq, Persia.
    +5 for control of Norway and Denmark together, if Sweden is neutral.
    +5 for control of Normandy and Holland together.

    RUSSIA:
    +5 if not at war with Japan.
    +2 for Axis territories under Soviet control.
    +5 if at War, for each open supply route: Persian Corridor, Pacific Route ALSIB Northern Trace, Arctic Route.

    UK EUROPE:
    +5 for each Allied controlled territory: Gibraltar, Malta, Greece, Normandy.

    UK PACIFIC:
    +5 for each Allied controlled territory, if at War with Japan: Burma, Malaya, Kwangtung.

    JAPAN:
    +5 if not at War with West.
    +5 if not at War with Russia.
    +1 for each Allied Pacific island under Japanese control.
    +10 if Japan controls Hawaii.

    USA:
    +10 at War
    +1 for each Axis island under US control (Pacific and European theaters).
    +5 if at War and Allies control Normandy
    +5 one time bonus for each Kamakazi island captured by Allies.

    CHINA:
    +6 Burma Road.

    ITALY:
    +1 for each Allied territory that touches the Mediterranean Sea controlled by Axis.
    +5 if no Allied ships in the Mediterranean.

    ANZAC:
    +3 for each Allied controlled territory, if at War with Japan: Solomons, New Guinea, Dutch New Guinea, New Britain, Malaya.

    FRANCE:
    +10 if Allies control Paris.

    Total Axis Objectives: 10
    Total Allied Objectives: 12
    Total Sphere of Influcen/NAP penalties: 6

    Exactly 28 entries, same as OOB. But covering way more ground.

  • '17 '16

    I like these three:
    ITALY
    +1 for each Allied territory that touches the Mediterranean Sea controlled by Axis.
    +5 if no Allied ships in the Med

    UK Europe
    +5 for each Allied controlled territory: Gibraltar, Malta, Greece, Normandy.

    ANZAC
    +3 for each Allied controlled territory, if at War with Japan: Solomons, New Guinea, Dutch New Guinea, New Britain, Malaya.

    On the last point, here an interesting post of Regular Kid:
    @regularkid:

    addressing the controversy broadly, making the Solomon Islands the lynch pin for ANZAC’s island NOs wasn’t even a close call; from both a gameplay perspective and (for me, equally important) a historic perspective, it was obviously the right thing to do.

    If there is any doubt as to the huge strategic importance of the Solomon Islands, you have only to read the first couple paragraphs of this instructive article on the Solomon Islands Campaign, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Islands_campaign, quoted below:

    "_The Solomon Islands campaign was a major campaign of the Pacific War of World War II. The campaign began with Japanese landings and occupation of several areas in the British Solomon Islands and Bougainville, in the Territory of New Guinea, during the first six months of 1942. The Japanese occupied these locations and began the construction of several naval and air bases with the goals of protecting the flank of the Japanese offensive in New Guinea, establishing a security barrier for the major Japanese base at Rabaul on New Britain, and providing bases for interdicting supply lines between the Allied powers of the United States and Australia and New Zealand.

    "The Allies, to defend their communication and supply lines in the South Pacific, supported a counteroffensive in New Guinea, isolated the Japanese base at Rabaul, and counterattacked the Japanese in the Solomons with landings on Guadalcanal (see Guadalcanal Campaign) and small neighboring islands on 7 August 1942. These landings initiated a series of combined-arms battles between the two adversaries, beginning with the Guadalcanal landing and continuing with several battles in the central and northern Solomons, on and around New Georgia Island, and Bougainville Island.

    “In a campaign of attrition fought on land, on sea, and in the air, the Allies wore the Japanese down, inflicting irreplaceable losses on Japanese military assets. The Allies retook some of the Solomon Islands (although resistance continued until the end of the war), and they also isolated and neutralized some Japanese positions, which were then bypassed. The Solomon Islands campaign then converged with the New Guinea campaign._”

    Given the above, _not i_ncluding the Solomon Islands in an NO entitled “Supply Lines” (i.e., Fiji, Samoa, and Gilbert), would make little thematic sense. As others have noted, taking the island in BM 3.2 negates just 6 PUs of ANZAC’s income as opposed to 5 PUs in the OOB game. . . this is hardly a huge change. Really, the only thing that makes Solomon Islands  unique in BM 3.0 is that it is the only island that can negate all 6 PUs at once. And that seems appropriate.

    Finally, I don’t think it is accurate to say that Solomon Islands was “routinely” taken by Japan in OOB games. That certainly hasn’t been my experience.

    Baron Munchenson, in response to your proposal, thats not really the direction we are going with the NOs.

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    OK got it cleaned up, and edited in those suggestions. To me it feels pretty solid. Accomplishes pretty much everything I would want out of G40 objectives, with the same number of entries, but each is more meaningful to the gameplay.

    If people like them, I can go back later and insert the expository blurbs, meant to describe the themes for each of the territories or sea zones involved.

  • '17 '16

    Pretty clean and simple.

    Probably easier to add into Triple A.
    Much simpler to remember too.

    Russia will like to stay in peace with Japan because 5 NAP + 5 Northern Trace depends on it.
    And a -10 IPCs penalty will happen to.

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    I honestly think the Violation penalties are the key to fixing this whole game. They should produce a much more realistic play-pattern.

    For sphere of influence violations, I would frame this thematically, as the amount of political or propaganda capital expended to prevent an all out war with your teammate. To calm the various domestic factions, or keep the generals and broader population in line, what have you. It still allows for desperation rescues, or brief coordinations, but here each nation with a sphere of influence has an incentive to preserve it. Its in their interest to get the other guy out of their backyard, in all but the most urgent situations.

    For the NAP violations you could again see it as political/propaganda/material capital expended to start an all out war with a nation that you formerly had a non agression relationship with. Trade backlash. The demands of rapid mobilization. All the things.

    The individual penalties aren’t so outsized, or the conditions so restrictive, that they eliminate these gameplay options entirely, just creates a set of economic incentives that encourage a somewhat more historical style of play.

    The bonuses get players jumping around to the islands where we want to see more action, and doing the sorts of things generally that make sense for the start date, and the historical war.

    But in gameplay terms it should work rather well, with some of the other ideas we’re floating. The NAP relates to certain ongoing objectives, so its weight is more than just the one time penalty. I removed Mongolia from the whole equation, because I think it should just be Pro-Soviet neutral anyways.

    I think the island objectives will play well with the new military base concept.
    Which can build +3 infantry, but can only be constructed in territories at 1 ipc or less in value. This prevents conflicts with Minor Factory candidate territories being too overpowered, but still allows for a whole host of build options all across the gameboard. The unit is relatively limited in scope, only creates infantry, and still expensive at 12 ipcs cost. It’s like a minor factory light, can’t build heavy equipment, but instead conceived as a more generic entry point for the infantry unit. Carries the danger of creating new bombing targets, or territories that can be captured and used against you. But it opens up so many areas of the map. I think it will be my favorite unit after the C5 bomber.
    :-D

    I think Russia and Germany will balance off each other to make the conflict on the eastern front more epic in scale. The same with Japan vs the West. Should be fun!

  • '17 '16

    @Black_Elk:

    I honestly think the Violation penalties are the key to fixing this whole game. They should produce a much more realistic play-pattern.

    For sphere of influence violations, I would frame this thematically, as the amount of political or propaganda capital expended to prevent an all out war with your teammate. To calm the various domestic factions, or keep the generals and broader population in line, what have you. It still allows for desperation rescues, or brief coordinations, but here each nation with a sphere of influence has an incentive to preserve it. Its in their interest to get the other guy out of their backyard, in all but the most urgent situations.

    For the NAP violations you could again see it as political/propaganda/material capital expended to start an all out war with a nation that you formerly had a non agression relationship with. Trade backlash. The demands of rapid mobilization. All the things.

    The individual penalties aren’t so outsized, or the conditions so restrictive, that they eliminate these gameplay options entirely, just creates a set of economic incentives that encourage a somewhat more historical style of play.

    The bonuses get players jumping around to the islands where we want to see more action, and doing the sorts of things generally that make sense for the start date, and the historical war.
    But in gameplay terms it should work rather well, with some of the other ideas we’re floating. The NAP relates to certain ongoing objectives, so its weight is more than just the one time penalty. I removed Mongolia from the whole equation, because I think it should just be Pro-Soviet neutral anyways.

    I think the island objectives will play well with the new military base concept.
    Which can build +3 infantry, but can only be constructed in territories at 1 ipc or less in value. This prevents conflicts with Minor Factory candidate territories being too overpowered, but still allows for a whole host of build options all across the gameboard. The unit is relatively limited in scope, only creates infantry, and still expensive at 12 ipcs cost. It’s like a minor factory light, can’t build heavy equipment, but instead conceived as a more generic entry point for the infantry unit. Carries the danger of creating new bombing targets, or territories that can be captured and used against you. But it opens up so many areas of the map. I think it will be my favorite unit after the C5 bomber.
    :-D

    I think Russia and Germany will balance off each other to make the conflict on the eastern front more epic is scale. The same with Japan vs the West. Should be fun!

    And you forget to talk about VCs bonus which can make additionnal TUV swing and incente toward more realistic strategic pattern. Some will add to NOs but other will compensate for some TTy which are not in NOs.
    Like Alaska and Western Canada.

    Wake and Aleutian Island now worth 1 IPC for Japan and may provide a staging ground for Infantry base + AB to boost C5 bombers to attack Hawaii IC bases or West Coast IC + bases.

    This will open more viable strategy in PTO for sure.
    Winning VCs, cutting Allies NOs boost, taking a few Islands on the way.
    Even Subs (historically one favored weapon of Japan and US) can be part of Convoy Raid with their capacity to survive a first round attack to submerge after.

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    So go with these if we can?

    I think its the ticket.
    :-D

    @Black_Elk:

    Sphere of Influence Violations:
    -10 ipcs from Russian income, if Western units in Soviet territories.
    -10 ipcs from British income, if Soviet units in Western territories.
    -10 ipcs from German income, if Japanese units in European Axis territories.
    -10 ipcs from Japanese income, if European Axis units in Japanese territories.

    NAP Violations:
    -10 ipcs one time aggressor penalty if Japan is first to break the non aggression treaty.
    -10 ipcs one time aggressor penalty if Russia is first to break the non aggression treaty.

    Objective Bonuses

    GERMANY:
    +5 if not at War with Russia
    +5 for each Axis controlled territory: England, Volgograd, Novgorod, Russia, Caucasus, Egypt, Iraq, Persia.
    +5 for control of Norway and Denmark together, if Sweden is neutral.
    +5 for control of Normandy and Holland together.

    RUSSIA:
    +5 if not at war with Japan.
    +2 for Axis territories under Soviet control.
    +5 if at War, for each open supply route: Persian Corridor, Pacific Route ALSIB Northern Trace, Arctic Route.

    JAPAN:
    +5 if not at War with the West.
    +5 if not at War with Russia.
    +1 for each Allied Pacific island under Japanese control.
    +10 if Japan controls Hawaii.

    UK EUROPE:
    +5 for each Allied controlled territory: Gibraltar, Malta, Greece, Normandy.

    UK PACIFIC:
    +5 for each Allied controlled territory, if at War with Japan: Burma, Malaya, Kwangtung.

    USA:
    +10 at War
    +1 for each Axis island under US control (Pacific and European theaters).
    +5 if at War and Allies control Normandy.
    +5 one time bonus for each Kamakazi island captured by Allies.

    CHINA:
    +6 Burma Road.

    ITALY:
    +1 for each Allied territory that touches the Mediterranean Sea controlled by Axis.
    +5 if no Allied ships in the Mediterranean.

    ANZAC:
    +3 for each Allied controlled territory, if at War with Japan: Solomons, New Guinea, Dutch New Guinea, New Britain, Malaya.

    FRANCE:
    +10 if Allies control Paris.

    Total Axis Objectives: 10
    Total Allied Objectives: 12
    Total Sphere of Influence/NAP penalties: 6

    Exactly 28 entries, same as OOB. But covering way more ground.

  • '23 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    Looks good to me!

  • '17 '16

    Maybe we can make some good comparison analysis to improve Redesign NOs.

    @regularkid:

    Hey all. Proud to announce the release of G40 Balanced (Balance Mod v3.0). Below is the official ruleset (with changes from the original Mod in blue.  3.0 changes are in red). Attached is a playable saved-game file of the Mod. As before, the national objectives and rule changes are coded for easy playability. Simply load the file as you would any other saved game, and you’re good to go. Also, the new Rules are stated in the “Game Notes” panel.

    Please note that the NOs will not be listed in your “Objectives Panel,” but they are working and the game will automatically keep track of them. If you would like to see the objectives in your “Objectives Panel,” there is an optional download, which will provided in the next post. Hope ya’ll enjoy!

    G40 Balanced - Balance Mod 3.0

    Original Game Credits: Bung, Veqryn

    Mod Squad: Adam514 (co-originator and oracle), Deathbringer1974 (chief executive troll), dust (good at math), dss85 (playtester and game breaker), Gencre (general haha), redrum (XML high priest), Regularkid (co-originator and king of noobs), Young Grasshopper (topper goodwill ambassador)


    REVISIONS


    Revised Air Raid Rules: Fighters attack and defend at 2. Strategic and tactical bombers attack at 1.

    Revised Capital Capture Rules: The capture of a player’s capital results in the plunder of that player’s PUs only the first time the capital is taken. Subsequent recapture of the same capital results in the player’s PUs being destroyed.

    Revised Victory Conditions: If Germany is Allied control, an Axis victory in the Pacific requires 7 (rather than 6) Pacific VCs. If Japan is Allied control, an Axis victory in Europe requires 9 (rather than 8 ) Europe VCs.

    New Unit - Marines: Cost 5; Attack at 1; Attack at 2 when involved with an amphibious assault; Defend at 2; No bonus from artillery; Can be loaded onto cruisers and battleships (1 to a ship).

    Note: During amphibious assaults, Battleships and Cruisers may bombard territories other than the one they unload their marines into.  Also during amphibious assaults, Marines attack at 2 even if they arrived over land (to join an amphibious assault by other ground units).  Kamikazes (by themselves) do not prevent and cannot be used against a marine amphibious assault that is from a different power’s cruiser/battleship.  Marines loaded in the combat movement phase must conduct amphibious assault in that same phase.
    Additional National Objectives

    Germany

    • 2 PUs if Romania, Yugoslavia, Albania, Bulgaria, Greece, and Crete are Axis or Pro-Axis controlled.
    • 5 PUs if there is at least one German land unit in either London (the United Kingdom) or Egypt. (This modifies Germany’s “Presence in Egypt” objective).

    Russia

    • 3 PUs if Russia is at war with European Axis, and there are no non-Russian Allied units in any originally Russian territory.
    • 3 PUs for each originally German, Italian, or Pro-Axis neutral territory that Russia controls in mainland Europe. (This modifies Russia’s “Spread of Communism” objective).
    • 2 PUs for each of the following Lend-Lease lanes that is “open” (i.e., the specified Sea Zone has no enemy warships and the specified territory is Allied controlled) when Russia is at war with European Axis beginning Round 3: (1) sz 125, Archangel ; (2) sz 80, Persia; (3) sz 5, Amur (This modifies Russia’s “Lend Lease” objective).
    • An additional 2 PUs per each “open” Lend-Lease lane, when Russia is at war with European Axis, if Japan has also declared war on Russia.

    Note: An Axis power may not move its units into originally Russian territory unless that Axis power is at war with Russia. Also, when not at war with Japan, Russia may not move its units into any non-Russian Allied territory in Asia, other than Syria, Trans-Jordan, Iraq, Persia, NorthWest Persia, and East Persia.  The National Objective for Russia’s first capture of Berlin has been removed.

    Japan

    • 5 PUs if Axis controls Dutch New Guinea, New Guinea, New Britain and Solomon Islands. (This modifies Japan’s “Strategic Perimeter” objective).
    • 5 PUs if Axis controls Midway, Wake Island, Guam.
      *      3 PUs if Japan controls Iwo Jima and Okinawa and is at war with the USA

    USA

    • 5 PUs if USA is at war and Allies control Midway, Wake Island, Guam.
    • 5 PUs if USA is at war and Allies control Marshall Islands, Caroline Islands, Paulau Island, Marianas.
    • 5 PUs if Allies control at least 2 of: Normandy Bordeaux, Holland Belgium, Southern France, and USA has at least one land unit in any of these territories.
    • 5 PUs if Allies control Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia, and USA has at least one land unit in any of these territories.

    China

    • 3 PUs if Allies control Yunnan, Szechwan, Burma, and India. (This modifies China’s “Burma Road” objective).
    • At the start of China’s turn, a Chinese infantry is spawned in each non-coastal Chinese territory under Axis control that is not garrisoned by at least one Axis land unit (i.e., infantry, marine, mech infantry, artillery, or armor). These “guerrillas” engage in combat wherever they are spawned and may not be moved until China’s next turn.

    UK

    • 3 PUs if UK Europe controls all its original territories. (This modifies UK’s “Original Territories” objective).
    • 3 PUs if Allies control at least 2 of: Sicily, Sardinia, Greece, Southern Italy, and Allies have at least one land unit in any of these territories.
    • 3 PUs if there are no enemy submarines in the Atlantic, excluding szs 112 and 125-127.
    • 3 PUs if Malta, Crete, and Cyprus are Allied or Pro-Allied controlled.
    • 3 PUs for UK Pacific when at war with the Japanese if: (1) British control West India and either Egypt or South Africa; and (2) there are no enemy submarines in the western half of the Indian Ocean (sz71,…,sz81).
    • 3 PUs for UK Pacific when at war with the Japanese if Malaya and Kwantung are Allied controlled. (This modifies UK Pacific’s “Malaya and Kwantung” objective.

    Italy

    • 3 PUs if Malta, Cyprus, and Crete are Axis controlled.

    ANZAC

    • 3 PUs if ANZAC is at war with the Japanese and Dutch New Guinea, New Guinea, New Britain and Solomon Islands are controlled by the Allies (other than the Dutch). (This modifies ANZAC’s “Strategic Islands” objective).
    • 3 PUs if ANZAC is at war with the Japanese and the Solomon Islands, Gilbert Islands, Fiji, and Samoa are Allied controlled.
    • 3 PUs if ANZAC is at war with the Japanese, controls all of its original territories, and Malaya is Allied controlled. (This modifies ANZAC’s “Control Original And Malaya” objective).

    VICHY FRANCE RULE SET

    The following rule-set simulates the circumstances and strategic consequences of the Franco-German Armistice, and is intended for play with the G40 Balance Mod.

    Game Conditions for Franco-German Armistice

    At the beginning of France’s turn, if the following conditions are met, the Franco-German Armistice will occur:

    1. Axis has control of both France and Normandy Bordeaux;
    2. Axis has never controlled Southern France; and
    3. There are no non-French, Allied land units in Southern France.

    Game Consequences of Franco-German Armistice

    French Territorial Control: At the beginning of France’s first turn in which Armistice conditions are met, all originally French territories not already under Axis control immediately change ownership to Pro-Axis Neutrals, except: (1) French Equatorial Africa; (2) New Hebrides; (2) any French territories containing non-French allied land units.

    Any non-French allied air units in Vichy-controlled territory are destroyed upon conversion of the territory to Vichy control.

    With the exception of Southern France (see discussion of “Zone Libere” below), Vichy French territory operates the same way as other Pro-Axis Neutral territory. An Axis player may capture Vichy French territory and commandeer its forces by moving a land unit into the territory during the non-combat phase of his turn.

    Fly-over restrictions applicable to other Neutral territories do not apply to Vichy French territory.

    Fleet at Toulon: In addition to the change in French territorial control, the Armistice changes control of the the French fleet in sz 93, from French to Pro-Axis neutral. The Vichy French fleet maintains a strictly defensive posture. It may not be moved. It may not be captured by the Axis. The fleet is immediately destroyed if any power, other than the Free French, occupies Southern France

    “Zone Libre”: Any Axis occupation of Southern France following the Armistice results in the scuttling of the Vichy French Fleet at Toulon and the disbandment of all remaining Vichy French forces. These forces are removed at the end of the Axis player’s turn in which the occupation of Southern France takes place. Any formerly Vichy French forces that were previously commandeered by the Axis are unaffected by this change.

    Armistice’s Effect on National Objectives: Following the armistice, Southern France is considered Axis-controlled for purposes of Italy’s “Roman Empire” objective. Otherwise, the Vichy France arrangement has no impact on National Objectives. Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco must still be directly occupied by Germany or Italy to achieve Italy’s “North Africa” objective. Japanese occupation of French Indo China still negates Japan’s “Trade With America” objective.

    Liberation of France: The Allied liberation of France effectively terminates the Armistice. Any territory and forces still under Vichy French control (including any surviving fleet in sz 93) revert back to Free French control. The Vichy French forces in the Southern France and sz 93 will also revert back if Southern France is liberated by the Free French.

  • '17 '16

    Black_Elk, I wonder if this NO can be modified to better incente battle for Islands in PTO:
    JAPAN NO:
    +10 if Japan controls any of Hawaii or New South Wales.

    Do you see a way to justify only these two and not San Francisco or India?

    These two NOs are for Fortress Europa, right?
    +5 for control of Norway and Denmark together, if Sweden is neutral.
    +5 for control of Normandy and Holland together.

  • '23 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    The Norway/Sweden NO is traditionally understood as representing the iron and nickel mines of Petsamo and Kirkennis, which Germany badly needed for its war economy. During winter, the ore had to be shipped north out of Sweden and counterclockwise around the coast of Norway, so losing control of Norway (or the goodwill of Sweden) would mean an end to ore shipments.

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    Would likely be fine, I just put a large bonus for Hawaii specifically based on CWO and LHoffman’s suggestions, to try and give it some kind of special status or weight. Thought being that SF, Sydney, and Calcutta already offer a nice cash windfall but Honolulu provided very little in the way of enticement. The original formulation had +5, for all those.

    Tried to frame the Fortress Europa NO to match, though the one dealing with Sweden involves the baltic Trade. Sweden is the only thing that really distinguishes the two, since otherwise they are formally pretty similar.

    I think it’s very useful to see the list of NO’s from balance mod 3.0. Is that discussion primarily in the software section?

    I recognize many ideas in there from earlier posts in this thread from a while back or elsewhere in the HR section, so seems like the right idea. I’m guessing that part of what is happening now (if it’s in its 3rd iteration) is an attempt to achieve balance by sides using NO modification and no bid. That is also good, because I’ve long felt that money is the most flexible.

    But I would suggest that once we have these NOs or VCs established in the HR package we don’t change them over time.

    For one thing, the idea here is not so much to create a set mod with everything integrated to the Nth degree, but rather a modular package with many options, which may recommend different things for different settings (depending for example on which roster expansion options, or unit tweaks, or VC settings one chooses etc). I think the easiest way to address balance under specific settings is probably with a suggested starting cash adjustment, rather than objective modification in most cases. Or if need be, a bid, or set up change. Or perhaps the addition of specialized NOs or Penalties. But better if those are additive rather than substitutions. So they don’t mess with the standardized HR stuff once it’s established. If that makes sense.

    I think the Sphere of Influence and NAP concepts will be fairly transformative, along with the listed objectives.

    Who knows, maybe balance mod 4.0 or 5.0 will use some of the ideas mentioned lately? But my goal would not be to create a competing mod. Rather it’s meant to be a package that allows players to create something like a balanced mod on the fly, (or your own HR mod using only the things you want to) simply through editing selections.

    The ideal would be a package that does not require a new set of gamefiles or xml editing for each mod, but just a recommended setting or a savegame with presets. The HR package itself is meant to be more universal.

  • '18 '17 '16 '15 Customizer

    I like the way it is shaping up.

    I was a little hesitant at the Violation penalties initially, because to my recollection A&A has never had a negative economic penalty. However, I think that a penalty is a better solution than a bonus with the opposite intent.

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    Probably the most sensible thing to do is include the full BM NO list (latest iteration) as an independent pre-set in the add tech toggle.

    That way they can go in there along with some of these newer proposals.

    Provides a maximum degree of flexibility for HR package, and helps to solidify things that are already working, without cutting off the option to add in new stuff, or tweak elements not already present inside that Mod.

    I think it might be nice to have two sets of ready to go objectives anyway. Just to stress the adaptability of the file.

    Seem cool?

    Then the House Rule gamefile covers a lot of ground…
    You get more new units, new map features, new objectives, each with a couple entry options.

    Our credits list will likely be massive. But there is room in the game notes if we just ditch the OOB changelog (which hasn’t beenough updated in years.) And replace that with a big list of A&Aorg and tripleA handles.

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    Shifting gears back to 1942.2 for a moment. Since we are doing House Rule objectives for G40, I think we could also consider these for 1942.2
    I would suggest that we keep Sphere of Influence and the NAP for v5, but reduce the penalty to fit with the smaller board. Something like…

    Sphere of Influence Violations:
    -5 ipcs from Russian income, if Western units in Soviet territories.
    -5 ipcs from British income, if Soviet units in Western territories.
    -5 ipcs from German income, if Japanese units in European Axis territories.
    -5 ipcs from Japanese income, if European Axis units in Japanese territories.

    NAP Violations:
    -5 ipcs one time aggressor penalty if Japan is first to break the non aggression treaty.
    -5 ipcs one time aggressor penalty if Russia is first to break the non aggression treaty.

    The closest board in scale to 1942.2 (and its predecessor) is AA50, with 6 players and 18 total objectives.
    In 1942.2 we have 5 players. I think this would recommend something in the range of 15 total objectives, or perhaps a dozen.

    We should fold the Italian objectives into the German objectives for sure, but there are others which would also need to be adapted for a board like 1942.2. China is not a separate nation in v5 for example, but it could likewise be folded into US or Soviet objectives to suggest Chiang or Mao.
    The values in AA50 can also be rather high, suggesting +5 for pretty much everything. I think some of these could probably go down in value or be somewhat more focused to match the economy and playscale of v5, which is more limited in scope.

    Below is the AA50 list…
    Which objectives get axed, and what do we change so it makes more sense for V5?

    National Objectives Germany: Lebensraum-
    +5 PUs if Axis control France, NW Europe, Germany, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, and Poland.
    +5 PUs if Axis control 3 of Baltic States, East Poland, Ukraine, East Ukrain, and Belorussia.
    +5 PUs if Axis control Karelia or Caucasus

    Japan: The Greater East Asia Coprosperity Sphere-
    +5 PUs if Axis control Manchuria, Kiangsu, and French Indo China.
    +5 PUs if Axis control 4 of Kwangtung, East Indies, Borneo, Philippine Islands, New Guinea and Solomon Islands.
    +5 PUs if Axis control 1 of Hawaiian Islands, Australia, or India

    Italy: Mare Nostrum-
    +5 PUs if Axis control 3 of Egypt, Trans Jordan, France, and Gibraltar
    +5 PUs if Axis control Italy, Balkans, Morocco and Libya AND no enemy surface ships in sea zones 13, 14, or 15.

    United States: The Arsenal of Democracy-
    +5 PUs if Allies control France.
    +5 PUs if Allies control Philippine Islands.
    +5 PUs Allies control W U.S., Central U.S., and E U.S.
    +5 PUs if Allies control 3 of Midway, Wake Island, Hawaiian Islands, and Solomon Islands.

    United Kingdom: The British Empire-
    +5 PUs if Allies control any territory originally controlled by Japan.
    +5 PUs if Allies control E Canada, W Canada, Gibraltar, Egypt, Australia and South Africa.
    +5 PUs if Allies control France or the Balkans.

    Soviet Union: The Great Patriotic War-
    +5 PUs if Soviets control Archangel and no allied forces in Soviet controlled territories.
    +10 PUs if Allies control 3 of Norway, Finland, Poland, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, and Balkans.

    China: Chinese Resistance & The Flying Tigers  
    +1 infantry for every two territories controlled by China at the beginning of her turn. These infantry must be place in a territory with less than three Chinese pieces. No Chinese Units, including the Chinese Fighter may leave Chinese territory (except for Kwangtung) (this means no entering sea zones)

  • '17 '16

    For my part, I prefer a much simpler scheme without any other NOs outside these:
    Sphere of Influence Violations:
    -5 ipcs from Russian income, if Western units in Soviet territories.
    -5 ipcs from British income, if Soviet units in Western territories.
    -5 ipcs from German income, if Japanese units in European Axis territories.
    -5 ipcs from Japanese income, if European Axis units in Japanese territories.

    Japan NAP bonus:
    +5 to Japan if follows the Non-Agression Pact
    -5 ipcs one time aggressor penalty if Japan is first to break the non aggression treaty.

    Russia get no bonus (outside keeping intact all Eastern TTs and VCs)
    But suffer no penalty from breaking it.
    However, Japan bonus would remain active for all the rest of the game.

    No complex things to learn and only a NAP which is beneficial to Russia and Japan.

    This would be another incentive to go west for Japan, without compromising the Center Crush strategy.


    Once this said, with option toggle switch on/off, it is still an opportunity to test NOs as a viable concept for 1942.2

    However, VCs will already play a part in strategy.
    I think that it must be as simple as 1 or 2 max per 5 powers, so 5 or 10 NOs at most.

    For Germany, I would use a kind of Atlantic Wall for Europe and Mare Nostrum in Med.

    Atlantic Wall (Fortress Europa):
    +5 PUs as long as these Axis TTy were never conquered by Allies: Norway, NorthWestern Europe and France.
    Once Allies take this once, no more bonus.

    Mare Nostrum:
    +3 PUs If all TTy bordering Med are Axis Controlled: Gibraltar, France, Italy, Southern Europe, Trans-Jordan, Egypt, Lybia, Tunisia and Morocco.

    For Russia, it is difficult because VCs (with Warchest might incorporate most of Lend-Lease NOs).
    If Helsinki is chosen as VCs over Archangel, then it may be possible to use:

    Soviet Union: Arctic Convoy route
    +5 PUs if Soviets control Archangel and no axis warship in bordering SZ 4.

    United Kingdom: The British Empire western colonial resources
    +5 PUs if No Axis warship in Atlantic SZ (excluding SZ5 and SZ6) and Gibraltar is an Allies TTy.

    United Kingdom: The British Empire eastern colonial resources
    +5 PUs if No Axis warship in SZ28, SZ33, SZ34 and SZ35 (African East Coast+ India SZ) and Suez Canal is open (Egypt and Trans-Jordan are allied TT).

    Japan: Outer defence perimeter:
    +5 PUs if Japan control Hawaiian Islands, Midway, Wake and Solomon Islands

    Japan: The Greater East Asia Coprosperity Sphere-
    +5 PUs if Japan control Manchuria, Kiangsu, French Indo-China, Kwantung and Burma.
    +5 PUs if Japan control 1 of Eastern Australia, New Zealand or India.

    (IDK which one is better for Japan)

    United States: The Arsenal of Democracy-
    +5 PUs for each TTy Allies control: France, Philippine Islands or Kwantung.
    +1 PUs for each original Axis Pacific Island TTy owned by Allies.

    Here is my first draft. 10 NOs+ NAP and Sphere of Influence Violations…

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    I agree, less is more for 1942.2.

    Was always resistant to NOs, even when first introduced in AA50, as being overly involved. So I like the idea of having them framed as “add ons” for a higher economy game, rather than as an indispensable part of game balance for 1942.2

    Some of the other tweaks already suggested, and the material in Argos pdf will be sufficient to make that board pretty entertaining. But since we were already in an objective kind of mindset seemed like a good time to float some.

    I prefer something along the lines of what you suggested, where each player nation only had 1 or 2 principle objectives. That way it’s easier to track.

    AA50 had many multipart objectives, like control 3 out of 5 territories for +X, or 4 out of 6 territories for +Y. The second AA50 OOB German and Japanese NOs read this way for example. I think stuff like that is a bit too complex, and involves too much tracking for a simpler game like 1942.2.

    I’d prefer bonuses that really concentrate on doing one big thing. Or a couple big things for each team. Because a lot of what we want should already be addressed somewhat by VCs and the othe4 options.

  • '17 '16

    Here is a few comments on NAP and penalty:
    It was on BMode thread:

    @Adam514:

    @Baron:

    @aequitas:

    @Baron:

    I’m really curious about what work and what doesn’t. And still on the topic of Balanced Mode.

    You need to get your Hands dirty in order to wash them with the right soap :wink:
    I recommend you to take the offer regularkid gave you and Play against him a BM game.

    I would like to have such time on my hand to play a G40.
    I would be seriously beaten up for sure but it is really about useful analysis I’m actually looking for.
    And I’m pretty sure between obvious aspects and aberrations there is way for experienced players to share their opinions and feedbacks.
    I was just pointing some possible BMode topics to comment.

    I think you and the Redesign team are going about it in the wrong way. First of all, the chances of landing in the range of reasonable game balance with everything you are planning on changing with no playtesting whatsoever is extremely low. There may be no theoretical limit to theorizing about changes and their effect on balance, but in practice and with so many changes you would save a huge amount of time by playtesting them as you go along, or you’ll be left with an unbalanced game at the end of your redesign, and balancing that will take more effort than putting the whole thing together.

    Second of all, you do not seem to have very experienced players as part of your Redesign team. I’ve skimmed through the thread and most of you are worried about outdated Axis tactics, saying for example that the Central Crush is the best/only way to go as Axis to win the game, and hence your efforts are concentrated on making other strategies more viable. While the Central Crush theory might have been the norm a few years ago, it isn’t at all anymore and the Axis have much better strategies than that. That’s why you need a few people in the Redesign team with at least 100 games completed, and who are knowledgeable about the current meta and what works and doesn’t work.

    Lastly, there will inevitably be problems you haven’t foreseen and inconsistencies, and these issues are identified and corrected with playtesting. Something might sound good in theory, but applying it is another story. For example, you have an income penalty for whoever declares first between Russia and Japan, but this is easily taken advantage of by simply declaring war when you are about to lose your capital in order to reduce the plunder, which is gamey.

    Good luck to the Redesign team, but at the very least don’t try to change 2 different maps with the same concepts. Focus on 1 map at a time.

  • '23 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    I’m sure Adam514’s criticisms are kindly meant, but I’m not seeing much practical, actionable advice here. If someone has played 100+ games of G40, they are probably pretty happy with G40 the way it is, and not much interested in a redesign! And, yes, of course we will have to playtest all of this, but when a game takes 8+ hours per playtest, it makes sense to invest real time in developing a promising first draft of the rules before you start playtesting.

    As far as national objectives in 1942.2, my only real comment is that they need to be tailored around a specific purpose. In G40 and AA50, there are so many territories on the board that a “regional objective” that rewards players for controlling 3 out of 4 territories in a region can help to give order and shape to the map – it helps players make sense of where they’re supposed to be aiming, and how far they are meant to have penetrated by the end of the opening and by the end of the middlegame. So the purpose of the G40 / AA50 objectives is to help give shape and structure to players’ attacks.

    In 1942.2, the map is small enough that every territory and every spare infantry matters. The problem isn’t that players have too many options, the problem is that the map is well-understood enough that players are often forced to stick pretty closely to an “orthodox” script if they want to be at all competitive. The OOB game revolves around France, Karelia, West Russia, the Caucasus, Egypt, Persia, and India. That’s where armies will naturally pile up and face off against each other, and in 9 out of 10 games, that’s where the game will be decided.

    If you take that existing structure and add a bunch of regional National Objectives on top of it, even if you put a lot of love and care into designing the NOs, you’re likely to wind up complicating the game without really adding much fun or variety to the gameplay. You might slightly shift where players focus their energy – maybe Norway becomes the key tug-of-war point instead of Karelia – but you’re pretty much working with the same themes, only now instead of being able to see where to focus by studying the map, you have to study the map and keep glancing back at your National Objectives reference card.

    A few months ago, I designed some National Objectives for the specific purpose of trying to shift energy away from the center of the map and toward the periphery (Norway, Australia, Soviet Far East, etc.). My buddies playtested them once, and they worked OK – they had some bugs, but they were interesting. But in the Redesign, I don’t think we can take it for granted that we’re going to need to shift energy away from the center. Depending on what options are selected, the game may already be balanced between the center and the periphery. E.g., with 30 VCs each giving $1 in Lend-Lease each turn on the 1942.2 map, I bet the corners of the board will be getting plenty of attention, National Objectives or no.

    I dislike non-aggression pacts that pay off with a cash bonus, because they seem horribly unrealistic to me – if you make a surprise attack, it gives you an advantage, not a disadvantage. I’ve argued about that with y’all on other threads, and I think you know my point of view. It’s not a dealbreaker for me.

    I am also very uneasy about the sphere of influence violation as applied to the 1942.2 map. On the 1942.2 map, beginners often fail to reinforce Moscow and West Russia appropriately – they will not send even one fighter to Moscow until it’s too late. Advanced players often develop a very rigorous schedule of reinforcement, and they will not be willing to compromise that schedule just to avoid a $5 penalty. Basically I’m not sure that a $5 penalty will wind up deterring more than a tiny fraction of 1942.2 players. There are Russian berserkers who constantly attack with Russia and don’t want any defensive help anyway, and there are Russian fortress-builders who can’t imagine playing Russia without Allied reinforcements, and there isn’t much in between, at least in my experience.

    Part of the issue with the sphere of influence violation is that it’s all-or-nothing. If you have already accepted a couple of British fighters on Moscow, chances are that if you withdraw those fighters, then you’ll lose your capital. Nobody wants to risk losing their capital just to collect an extra $5 that will be promptly looted by Germany before you can spend it! But if you continue to double down on the Allied reinforcements, then there is no additional cost – you can stack 20 British infantry, 5 British tanks, and 10 British fighters all over central Russia for the same penalty you would get if you put 1 British infantry in Leningrad.

    In a typical game, Russia’s power will go slowly but steadily down over the course of the game. If Russia’s power starts to noticeably increase after the opening is over, that’s usually a pretty reliable sign that the Allies are destined to win. At that point, a few extra bucks here or there isn’t going to matter; you’ve already broken the German spearhead, and the rest is just a matter of mopping up. Same thing with, e.g., Japan in a Kill Japan First opening – if the Allies all try to kill Japan, and Japan’s income dips from 30 down to 20 and then down to 15, but then rebounds back up to 25, that probably means the Axis are a few turns away from winning the game.

    Consequently, there will never be a good opportunity to remove troops from a weak ally’s territory. From the moment you decide to put troops in their territory, they are only going to get weaker, and so they’re only going to have more need for your troops.

    So I’m a little unsure of what the sphere of influence rule is accomplishing for us in 1942.2. Do we really imagine that in most games, Russia will be able to manage its defense without any outside aid? Are we trying to incentivize players to wait until later in the middlegame to start dropping reinforcements into Russia? What is our goal here?

    In general, I think it would be useful if someone could compile a bulleted list of 1942.2 house rules that might go into the redesign, one line of text per rule, and then compile another bulleted list of design goals, one line of text per design goal. We should be trying to figure out how (and whether!) each of our proposed rules is actually furthering one of our design goals, and whether some of those rules are stepping on each other’s toes.

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    I take the criticism, and admit I do feel somewhat deflated by it.

    On the other hand, even within that modification, ideas are already being used which would not exist if people hadn’t first done a fair amount of theorizing. So I still take a certain pride in tossing out ideas, and rambling endlessly about these games in a more general way.
    :-D

    I think the difference is that, once you set a clear foundation to build on, you can’t really go back and revise that foundation too much, without tanking all the various balance adjustments that have been made along the way. Balanced Mod is already established by now. So whatever tweaks remain to be made there, are unlikely to include more new ideas that diverge substantially from what is going on with the latest iteration. The priority goal for anything with “Balance” in the name, is clearly to make it balanced by sides (ie no further adjustments needed.) They are basically in Beta mode right now, where the parameters are more or less set, and they are trying to fine tune.

    Like would they want to add more VCs at this point? Or new units? My guess is no. Kid laid out his priorities there a while back, that the mod would have a particular scope in that area, using C5 Marines and Vichy and some other select modifications at the foundation, but otherwise keeping the flavor of map as much like OOB as possible, and then drive with a more lazer like focus towards balancing those materials.

    This is a rather different aim than what I was hoping we might provide for tripleA here, which is not a mod focused on balance, but is essentially a kind of HR tool kit that mirrors the table top experience, allowing players to adopt HRs for the official games in a simpler way on the fly. Instead of hacking xml files, importing graphics, designing new triggers and all the rest, instead they’d have a set of standardized options to pick and choose from a la carte.

    Just as a quick example. Say a player wants to use Vichy rules but not Marines or vice versa. That’s not possible right now unless you create a new gamefile. Or similarly if you want to add any other unit concept that players might be interested in, or things like adding VCs etc. In practical terms it is not possible to balance for all these things at once. So I would make no claims there. All I’m shooting for is to put more options on the table, and increase the modular flexibility.

    His point about the Violations is a good one. It’s true I had not anticipated how a malus removing ipcs for something the player chooses to do, might be abused to reduce their treasury before capital capture. Same deal with what Arg just mentioned regarding 1942.2

    That idea was very recent, so its no surprise if it may prove unworkable. Part of the reason that deliberation can sometimes be a good thing. So there is plenty of time to shut it down before the reactor blows.
    :-D

    So yeah, maybe axe those. I also like that last idea of Arg’s to start bullet’ng it out.

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