I use them in my game but not G40. Have tweaked them over the years. You roll for 2 each country and use whole game. If you want I can post my chart.
de279a62-5539-4f41-bd47-c39204d491f2-image.png
G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions)
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Based on what I try with 1942.2, you have to find the number of VCs required in PTO for Japan to win.
This number will determine what kind of expansion/growth Japan need to get.
Then, you have to look at how many inland Asia and ETO are within Japan grasp and make sure it is not enough in itself to gain Victory. That way, Japan would have to conquer some other VCs in Pacific (like Honolulu, Wellington, Victoria, Sydney, Singapore, Manila, Shanghai, Vladivostok, etc.) to reach a winning turning point somehow.
Not always, San Francisco or Calcutta have to be the missing VCs to win war. -
With other possible HRs in effect, wouldn’t it be easier to just pick the VCs and then design the Japanese economy (via NAP etc) to figure out how Japan can expand best for those VCs in the PTO?
If the VCs will determine victory mechanics, then they’re really the most important single element being introduced.
In the draft above there are 14 total VCs, on the Pacific side of the map.
Africa/Mid East/Southern Russia/S. America have 7 more somewhat nearby on the Europe side (excluding the Russian capital), that could conceivably be contested by Japan, in a game where are they are pushing hard.
Europe still has the majority of VCs at 22, but these are basically distributed in a way that they could change hands more often. With the main hotspots in North Africa, Med/Mid East, and Europe proper. In this last, West Europe, Balkans and Scandinavia also make for a somewhat more alluring prize in opening a second front.
I don’t know, feels pretty clean to me at a glance. Not too overwhelming, but still stitches the map together in an interesting way for the Warchest.
It at least holds out the vague promise of some kind of number magic, where the Pacific side might go 7/7 split and Europe side might go 11/11 split. Like just praying to the slot machine or dice gods to give me what I need hehehe
:-D -
With other possible HRs in effect, wouldn’t it be easier to just pick the VCs and then design the Japanese economy (via NAP etc) to figure out how Japan can expand best for those VCs in the PTO?
If the VCs will determine victory mechanics, then they’re really the most important single element being introduced.
In the draft above there are 14 total VCs, on the Pacific side of the map.
Africa/Mid East/Southern Russia/S. America have 7 more somewhat nearby on the Europe side (excluding the Russian capital), that could conceivably be contested by Japan, in a game where are they pushing hard.
Europe still has the majority of VCs at 22, but these are basically distributed in a way that they could change hands more often. With the main hotspots in North Africa, Med/Mid East, and Europe proper. In this last, West Europe, Balkans and Scandinavia also make for a somewhat more alluring prize in opening a second front.
I don’t know, feels pretty clean to me at a glance. Not too overwhelming, but still stitches the map together in an interesting way for the Warchest.
so, if there is 14 VCs in PTOs, if Japan can get hands on 11 VCs (So you don’t need to capture India, San Francisco and Victoria, or India, Sydney and Wellington or San Francisco, Honolulu and Victoria, etc.), it will be a win.
Do you think 11 VCs can be the new Victory conditions in PTO? Or 10 VCs is more reasonable?
P.S. I rather prefer Victoria because it provides another target in PTO than FreeTown or Edimburg.
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Not sure, the 36 VC crystal ball is still glowing too brightly for me to see it all play out.
:-DBut it would certainly be cool, if split victory conditions by map side (in a one sided game where Allies go mainly Europe) then Japan takes 10/11 for the win, or right in that range on the Pac side. It would be fun because they could basically choose from a few different attack patterns to get at what they need.
Overall the promise of a possible 18/18 split globally seems like it would be cool, offers some interesting purchase potential, if the two teams ever managed to fight each other into an even standing, just splitting the 36 right down the middle at some point in the Mid-Game haha. Seems not entirely unlikely, given that we introduce 17 more VCs on the map altogether this way. For our purposes you can basically say that we’re doubling the total number of VC in play.
Same deal if you go from 13 to 24 VCs in 1942.2. It’d be a pretty robust expansion of the VC spread, nearly doubling the number in play. I think it would look cool in tripleA to hit the toggle switch, and see a bunch of new VCs suddenly appear on the familiar board.
24 and 36 have a more numerologically appealing look to the them, just on a superficial level at a glance. It’s the kind of thing that maybe Sargon’s scribes would have approved of hehe. Better than a straight doubling of the OOB numbers to 26, or 38 anyway. And I like that 24 and 36 play off of that original Dozen VCs introduced in Revised.
Especially if all this was all supported by a warchest mechanic that relates the VC’s to the purchasing gameplay, in a fun way at the end of each game round.
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Not sure, the 36 VC crystal ball is still glowing too brightly for me to see it all play out.
:-DBut it would certainly be cool, if split victory conditions by map side (in a one sided game where Allies go mainly Europe) then Japan takes 10/11 for the win, or right in that range on the Pac side. It would be fun because they could basically choose from a few different attack patterns to get at what they need.
Overall the promise of a possible 18/18 split globally seems like it would be cool, offers some interesting purchase potential, if the two teams ever managed to fight each other into an even standing, just splitting the 36 right down the middle at some point in the Mid-Game haha. Seems not entirely unlikely, given that we introduce 17 more VCs on the map altogether this way.
Why so many?
Too much reduces there individual worth.
14 PTO vs 16 ETO, for example is also a way to make both Theaters VCs balanced and worthy by side.
I’m not trying to dictate specific numbers but assuming a given number of VCs give more money and eventually victory to Axis, it seems that Japan gains (which are more difficult due to a lot of amphibious landing ops) might convey at least the same importance.If it is about a high warchest, it can still be 24 VCs with 2 IPCs per VCs, for a 4 IPCs swing each time.
So 48 IPCs would be total IPCs to split. Or 30 VCs for 60 IPCs to split.Also, I rather prefer to give more VCs to Allies at the beginning. Let Axis fight for them.
On that point, I always see it as each VCs IPCs belongs to owner but he can share it according to his will. So, there will be no confusion about who get what. You give your own Warchest to other powers, only if you want.
12 IPCs CAP might be better (4 Infs or 3 Arts or 2 Tanks, etc.) to rethink purchase faster.
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24 and 36 have a more numerologically appealing look to the them, just on a superficial level at a glance. It’s the kind of thing that maybe Sargon’s scribes would have approved of hehe. Better than a straight doubling of the OOB numbers to 26, or 38 anyway. And I like that 24 and 36 play off of that original Dozen VCs introduced in Revised.
Especially if all this was all supported by a warchest mechanic that relates the VC’s to the purchasing gameplay, in a fun way at the end of each game round.
On numbers, I can say that 18, 24, 30, 36 are more interesting because they are even numbers which can be divided by 3.
Since, it is harder to find important targets in PTO, I believe 12 or 14 VCs, are about the maximum numbers you can get.
So, is it possible to downsize ETO, still focusing on what kind of strategic pattern make for interesting play for both Italy and Germany.
Africa needs a few VCs, Europe still but Moscow is a great magnet anyway. You don’t need that much milestones along the Eastern front.
Does Germany have to fight to keep Scandinavian assets?
And Middle East should be a bit more interesting (Irak?) for trying to figure Oil Fields resources.Also, there is NOs which can adds a lot of IPCs too.
This may be a few ideas to downsize ETO VCs candidates. -
I think the added VCs would end up reinforcing each other. And create victory pockets in every region of interest.
With 36 you can basically give each player nation an extra VC.
It’s not so much about the warchest bonus, as it is in creating a more layered representation around the globe. I think the warchest could be adapted to fit the number of VCs.
To me it just seems easier to accept a VC like Wellington or Cape Town, if you already have more of the actual battleground cities represented. Instead of just picking somewhat arbitrarily (or with less regard to the historical battlegrounds) for the purposes of trying to give the Pacific side equal weight, at 36 I was thinking that you basically have all the major cities one could ask for.
Seemed to me that the OOB games were always erring on the side of fewer VCs rather than more, and it always felt nerfed. Why not just tip it in the other direction, and put these VCs in all the active theaters.
If you think of a region like South East Asia, or the Balkans, North Africa or Scandinavia, South Pacific etc, they each have a nice little VC pocket of connected territories. So it’s not like you have to fight across half a continent to get to the next VC. Instead they are traded more regularly. Around various choke points. To me it doesn’t seem like any single VC loses out on significance, just that they become more part of a regional picture rather than towering solo territories that are too few and far between. Which is how they’ve felt to me in most games.
I guess 30 would be better than 24 would be better than 18. I’ll push high.
:-DYou can reign me in, but I just went with the number that seemed to pop out at me for the visual appeal. Some areas in Europe might seem more crowded with VCs, but those are also regions where the Allies can fight along the coast, and trade VCs with Axis, without always having to do massive D Day style landings to stay competitive, since there are just more targets on offer in a given round.
What is you top choice for G40?
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I think the added VCs would end up reinforcing each other. And create victory pockets in every region of interest.
**With 36 you can basically give each player nation an extra VC.
It’s not so much about the warchest bonus, as it is in creating a more layered representation around the globe. I think the warchest could be adapted to fit the number of VCs.
To me it just seems easier to accept a VC like Wellington or Cape Town, if you already have more of the actual battleground cities represented.** Instead of just picking somewhat arbitrarily (or with less regard to the historical battlegrounds) for the purposes of trying to give the Pacific side equal weight, at 36 I was thinking that you basically have all the major cities one could ask for.
Seemed to me that the OOB games were always erring on the side of fewer VCs rather than more, and it always felt nerfed. Why not just tip it in the other direction, and put these VCs in all the active theaters.
If you think of a region like South East Asia, or the Balkans, North Africa or Scandinavia, South Pacific etc, they each have a nice little VC pocket of connected territories. So it’s not like you have to fight across half a continent to get to the next VC. Instead they are traded more regularly. Around various choke points. To me it doesn’t seem like any single VC loses out on significance, just that they become more part of a regional picture rather than towering solo territories that are too few and far between. Which is how they’ve felt to me in most games.
I guess 30 would be better than 24 would be better than 18. I’ll push high.
:-DYou can reign me in, but I just went with the number that seemed to pop out at me for the visual appeal. Some areas in Europe might seem more crowded with VCs, but those are also regions where the Allies can fight along the coast, and trade VCs with Axis, without always having to do massive D Day style landings to stay competitive, since there are just more targets on offer in a given round.
What is you top choice for G40?
Ok, if it is not about warchest.
I’m not against 36 VCs 14 PTO and 22 ATO.
I just feel it was a lot to manage and keep focused on.Probably have to watch what impact have the Allies end of round over collecting IPCs for VCs.
This will first benefit them, as most heavier Axis are first in round order.
Allies would have room to react to such capture. -
What I was thinking here is that anywhere you might go to contest a VC, there would be one or two more VCs right nearby, to create more of a back and forth incentive. Each new VCs kind of balances off an existing one, or pulls another VC into its gravity to support it. These pairings just kind of show how a VC might connect to one nearby on a given round.
1 Berlin/Oslo
2 London/Antwerp
3 Stalingrad/Bucharest
4 Rome/Tripoli
5 Paris/Algeria
6 Cairo/Cape Town
7 Shanghai/Chonqing
8 Calcutta/Bangkok
9 Sydney/Singapore
10 San Francisco/Victoria
11 Tokyo/Vladivostok
12 Honolulu/Wellington
13 Washington/Rio
14 Hong Kong/Manila
15 Warsaw/Helsinki
16 Moscow/Ottawa
17 Belgrade/Sofia
18 Athens/BaghdadSo you’d have some way to trade, or strike back, or counter balance within the VC spread on a round by round basis. Instead of just climactic build ups to stack slayings on the VC territory, trading could be more regular within a given region.
Or instead of pairs, you can think of them as forming little triangles of VC doom hehe.
I don’t know, maybe its overkill. But usually on the OOB maps, people gripe about there being “two few VCs” for such and such a map. At least here you could totally duck that potential complaint. It’s got pretty much every VC one could wish for, unless I left out something glaring.
:-D -
What I was thinking here is that anywhere you might go to contest a VC, there would be one or two more VCs right nearby, to create more of a back and forth incentive. Each new VCs kind of balances off an existing one, or pulls another VC into its gravity to support it. These pairings just kind of show how a VC might connect to one nearby on a given round.
1 Berlin/Oslo
2 London/Antwerp
3 Stalingrad/Bucharest
4 Rome/Tripoli
5 Paris/Algeria
6 Cairo/Cape Town
7 Shanghai/Chonqing
8 Calcutta/Bangkok
9 Sydney/Singapore
10 San Francisco/Victoria
11 Tokyo/Vladivostok
12 Honolulu/Wellington
13 Washington/Rio
14 Hong Kong/Manila
15 Warsaw/Helsinki
16 Moscow/Ottawa
17 Belgrade/Sofia
18 Athens/BaghdadSo you’d have some way to trade, or strike back, or counter balance within the VC spread on a round by round basis. Instead of just climactic build ups to stack slayings on the VC territory, trading could be more regular within a given region.
Or instead of pairs, you can think of them as forming little triangles of VC doom hehe.
I don’t know, maybe its overkill. But usually on the OOB maps, people gripe about there being “two few VCs” for such and such a map. At least here you could totally duck that potential complaint. It’s got pretty much every VC one could wish for, unless I left out something glaring.
:-DFar better order.
16 Moscow/Ottawa should be 16 Moscow/Leningrad
Ottawa is also within Washington sphere of influence.
But from Commonwealth POV: 2 London/AntwerpOttawa is a better match.Allies 12 PTO VCs:
1 Berlin/Oslo
2 London/Antwerp
3 Stalingrad/Bucharest
4 Rome/Tripoli
5 Paris/Algeria
6 Cairo/Cape Town
7 Shanghai/Chonqing
8 Calcutta/Bangkok
9 Sydney/Singapore
10 San Francisco/Victoria
11 Tokyo/Vladivostok
12 Honolulu/Wellington
13 Washington/Rio
14 Hong Kong/Manila
15 Warsaw/Helsinki
16 Moscow/Ottawa
17 Belgrade/Sofia
18 Athens/BaghdadAllies 12 ETO VCs
1 Berlin/Oslo
2 London/AntwerpLeningrad
3 Stalingrad/Bucharest
4 Rome/Tripoli
5 Paris/Algeria
6 Cairo/Cape Town
7 Shanghai/Chonqing
8 Calcutta/Bangkok
9 Sydney/Singapore
10 San Francisco/Victoria
11 Tokyo/Vladivostok
12 Honolulu/Wellington
13 Washington/Rio
14 Hong Kong/Manila
15 Warsaw/Helsinki
16 Moscow/Ottawa
17 Belgrade/Sofia
18 Athens/BaghdadAXIS ETO VCs
1 Berlin/Oslo
2 London/Antwerp
3 Stalingrad/Bucharest
4 Rome/Tripoli
5 Paris/Algeria
6 Cairo/Cape Town
7 Shanghai/Chonqing
8 Calcutta/Bangkok
9 Sydney/Singapore
10 San Francisco/Victoria
11 Tokyo/Vladivostok
12 Honolulu/Wellington
13 Washington/Rio
14 Hong Kong/Manila
15 Warsaw/Helsinki
16 Moscow/Ottawa
17 Belgrade/Sofia
18 Athens/Baghdad -
Ok here is that list from the other page with Yugoslavia sub’d out for Java (Jakarta). And Siam sub’d put for Carolines (Truk).
If you want to switch others around that’s cool too. Then we can start making maps!
ILs are already pretty legit for FtF play, since they have enlarged territories making a VC/VT marker easier to use without much crowding. But even the OOB board is easy enough to put a an easy sticker on.
In tripleA it will just be a button you activate in the tech menu, to drops more stars around the globe.
:-DAllies OOB:
1 UK (London)
2 Egypt (Cairo)
3 France (Paris)
4 Novgorod (Leningrad)
5 Volgograd (Stalingrad)
6 Russia (Moscow)
7 Ontario (Ottawa)
8 East US (Washington)9 India (Calcutta)
10 Kwangtung (Hong Kong)
11 Philippines (Manila)
12 New South Wales (Sydney)
13 Hawaii (Honolulu)
14 West US (San Francsico)Adding…
15 Algeria (Algiers)
16 U. South Africa (Cape Town)
17 Malaya (Singapore)
18 Amur (Vladivostok)
19 New Zealand (Wellington)
20 Western Canada (Victoria)Axis OOB:
1 East Germany (Berlin)
2 Poland (Warsaw)
3 Southern Italy (Rome)
4 Kiangsu (Shanghai)
5 Japan (Tokyo)Adding…
6 Norway (Oslo)
7 Holland (Amsterdam)
8 Romania (Bucharest)
9 Libya (Tripoli)
10 Carolines (Truk)That’s 30 starting VCs, under Player Nation control (20 Allies vs 10 Axis).
Then you have the 6 Pro-Side VCs, that must be claimed.
Adding…Pro Axis Neutrals:
1 Finland (Helsinki)
2 Iraq (Mosul)
3 Bulgaria (Sofia)Pro Allies Neutrals:
4 Java (Jakarta)
5 Greece (Athens)
6 Brazil (Rio de Janeiro)For a total of 36 Victory Cities in all
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I think Black Elk’s list of 36 VCs is good. I’m not in love with Sofia – if Belgrade, Athens, and Bucharest don’t motivate you to open a Balkans campaign, then I don’t think a 4th Balkan VC will help – and I agree w/ Baron Munchhausen that one more Pacific Ocean VC would be useful.
Truk?
Mexico City?
Anchorage?
Santiago?
Buenos Aires?
Batavia??
Chelyabinsk???I support Victoria over Edinburgh, and I favor at least 11 Pacific VCs for a solo win. If Allies have Calcutta, ChongQing, Honolulu, San Francisco, Victoria plus one more Pacific VC, then no solo win. If Allies are pushed off of entire Asian coast and entire Pacific Ocean and all of ANZAC with no toe hold between Hawaii and India, then Japan should win.
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Yeah I suppose I was just thinking that it gives the Minor Axis powers some representation. Probably Hungary would make just as much sense as Bulgaria, but I didn’t feel the need to put that in there. I only thought Bulgaria might be cool for Pro-Side parity to have 3 vs 3, so it wouldn’t look so weird to have Rio all by itself. Since that spot has been mentioned a few times as a way to try and make South America more interesting as a potential theater (since its the only TT on that continent hehe.)
Though I guess it could be 2v2 for the pro side VC just as easily, and toss 2 other VCs somewhere else. Like one of those others spots just mentioned.
Sub out the weaker candidates and include some stronger ones. Balkans is already pretty thick hehe, though I like Greece, and Iraq/Finland at least to give the Axis a pair in range.
Thanks Baron, just corrected there. :-)
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I think Black Elk’s list of 36 VCs is good. I’m not in love with Sofia – if Belgrade, Athens, and Bucharest don’t motivate you to open a Balkans campaign, then I don’t think a 4th Balkan VC will help – and I agree w/ Baron Munchhausen that one more Pacific Ocean VC would be useful.
Truk?
Mexico City?
Anchorage?
Santiago?
Buenos Aires?
Batavia??
Chelyabinsk???I support Victoria over Edinburgh, and I favor at least 11 Pacific VCs for a solo win. If Allies have Calcutta, ChongQing, Honolulu, San Francisco, Victoria plus one more Pacific VC, then no solo win. If Allies are pushed off of entire Asian coast and entire Pacific Ocean and all of ANZAC with no toe hold between Hawaii and India, then Japan should win.
Anchorage might help launching a North American invasion with Victoria not far away.
If another VC is needed, Truk was a pretty important Island base.
Maybe better to get PTO 16 VCs / ETO 20 VCs
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Yeah, I kind of like having anchorage, Victoria, and San Francisco all be VCs– it gives some urgency to usa’s response to a North Pacific invasion!
If Japan had followed Pearl Harbor with a modest raid on the north pacific, that would merely have redoubled usa’s resolve. But if Japan conquered the entire south Pacific, including Sydney, and then sacked Anchorage and started marching down the Pacific Coast, they would have appeared pretty frigging invincible. I think part of why Britain surrendered at Singapore is because Japan looked magically invincible. It’s conceivable that with the Japanese sitting in Sydney, Honolulu, Anchorage, and Victoria, the USA would have also swallowed that mystique and agreed to a separate peace, even if San Francisco still held strong.
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Truk?
Mexico City?
Anchorage?
Santiago?
Buenos Aires?
Batavia??
Chelyabinsk???Astrakhan
Truk
Polesti
Baku
Oslo
Mosul
Dutch oil centers -
Making Truk in Carolines Island a VCs with Anchorage VCs in 1942.2 might be more interesting in PTO.
2 VCs from ETO have to disappear, like Brazil and…Warsaw to keep 24 VCs? -
Places like Bangkok are worthless historically to anybody
Perhaps add Panama?
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Alaska seems cool to me, I say sub out something ETO and put that in. Or ditch Bangkok and do Truk or Jakarta or something more central pacific. Though not sure Truk was so much a City, it would certainly make sense as a Victory Territory if we’re just trying to go that route. You can call them VTs, instead of VCs. Function-wise they’d be essentially the same, just eliminates the need to refer to a major city when referencing them.
I think Pro Side VCs would be find to have, but only if there is more than just one or two, because otherwise it just looks kind of bizarre. In other words I’d want more than just Rio, if we’re going to have Rio.
I’d avoid a true neutral tile like Argentina though, even if it might make Sinkiang. America more interesting. Attacking true neutrals is already crazy enough. Unless you want to make the True neutral VCs the thing, instead of (or in conjunction with) Pro Side VCs. In which case you’d probably have to do Stockholm, Ankara and Madrid. But that could be kind of nutso. I don’t know maybe it works? Like attacking true neutrals activates VCs that wouldn’t otherwise come into play. Does the game need an incentive to violate True neutrality?
Ps. Jakarta might be cool though, because then even the Dutch would seem like they have more reason to exist in the game. Especially if you have Holland (Amsterdam) in the mix.
I also like ILs suggestions, which would fit with a more VT oriented description.
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@Imperious:
Places like Bangkok are worthless historically to anybody
Perhaps add Panama?
Jakarta was once suggested does it fill the bill for Dutch Oil Center?
Panama is not on PTO map, but maybe it should be a special VC for both Axis sides…
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