I also believe this Submarine unit can be put on 5 IPCs sweet spot and keep balance vs Destroyer.
That way, you get 1 IPC gap (cost differential) between DD and Sub while keeping DD the best all around naval fodder which remains necessary to screen from Submarine, since according to this HR, Sub cannot be hit by Sub.
@WILD:
As stated before, I really like this sub warfare strat for the Pacific. There are plenty of convoy zones for the allies to spread subs out to execute it attached to high IPC valued territories. The rules involving subs/destroyers plus the cost differential of these units make it even more attractive then just straight convoying.
With that said, why in the hell can’t the Germans do something similar on the Euro side, especially early in the game when the UK is vulnerable? This just seems wrong for the power that had the best success convoying the enemy to be so limited in its ability to do so. There are only a handful of convoy zones in the Atlantic, and they can be easily defended by the allies. The best convoy zones are next to production centers, and air bases making them easy to keep clear.
The Germans start out with a good size sub force, but are pretty much forced to throw it away G1 attacking the UK big ships. Even if the Germans build subs, they can’t spread them out like you can in the Pac to get the same desired results (strangle the enemy econ).
You should be able to attack/convoy known shipping lanes in the mid Atlantic as well as the ports IMO. That would allow the Germans to spread out subs in a similar manner to be more cost effective. You might say that the axis have enough of an advantage in this game, but if the Germans build more subs they will have fewer units heading to Moscow.
It is also a way to incente Germany to buy more of them (1 IPC cheaper than Tank), since it remains a powerful attacking unit and can be use in conjunction with Aircrafts to get ride of Royal Navy at lower cost than full-blown only air attack.
Also, the always on surprise strike attack makes for a more iconic unit. And still make Sub as balanced as OOB because 5$Sub/6$DD ratio (83%) and 88% odds of survival for Sub is same than 6$Sub/8$DD (75%) and 88% odds of survival for Sub.
On defense, regular @1 reminds us that Sub is pretty vulnerable to DD hunting and submerge is salvation. Which in that case make Sub weaker than OOB Sub when compared to DD.
Submarine 5 IPCs
A2fs* D1 M2 (3 with NB)
*Permanent A2 first strike against all surface vessels only, including DDs.
Always regular defense roll @1.
Cannot hit planes or submarines.
Submerge (in Surprise strike phase, even in defense) and Stealth Move (cannot control SZ).
Unsubmerged Submarine can be hit by planes without any ASV presence.
For Submarines and Destroyers, I cut down the Surprise Strike and blocker because most of the time there is enough Destroyers to neutralized this special ability. Making both at the same cost would have put a balanced Sub at A3 D1 vs DD at A2 D2. Keeping it at a lower combat value but constant A2 first strike keeps the symbolic surprise attack (figurating the sneaky torpedoes) while putting Subs as a better offensive warship than Destroyer. On the other hand, I simplified the Sub defense value to a regular and constant Defense @1. Anyway, most of the time, it was the usual Sub defense OOB since DD is always present to block Subs escape.
So, when Sub is part of a naval combat it keeps the same value from the start till the end. Simpler.
Since this Sub is weaker than OOB Sub vs Destroyers, I add Sub cannot hit Sub rule (for offense while this rule make it a less interesting fodder) and gives a better survivability with DD blocking Submerge and Stealth only on 1:1 ratio which still make sense at almost the same cost.
At least, when a Submarine will be on offense, the A2 first strike promise to be more satisfying than OOB A2 regular Sub attack, due to Destroyer presence.
Destroyer capacity remains the same as above:
Destroyer 6 IPCs
A2 D2 M2-3 paired 1:1 with Cruiser (3 with NB)
Anti-Sub Vessel: Blocks Submarine’s Submerge (first combat round only) and Stealth move, both on 1:1 basis.
Here is a first post questioning 1:1 blocker ratio. In essence, asking that Sub and DD be put at the same cost to balance a 1:1 blocking ability:
@Zombie69:
If you make destroyers work against subs only on a 1:1 basis, you’ll have to increase sub cost to 8 IPCs or they’ll be grossely overpowered. It’s already tough defending against subs when you need to spend 8 IPCs for every 6 IPCs spent by your opponent. If every sub … also gets to make a first strike, then it gets ridiculously overpowered for the guy buying subs. Either that, or bring their attack down to 1 (but I don’t think that would be enough).
Here is good explanation on why Destroyer were needed for aircrafts to hit Submarines.
And it provides the background about how I simplify DD-Sub-Air interactions with cheaper DD (near same cost as Subs) and Sub unable to hit Subs.
By keeping Sub submerge ability in Surprise Strike phase, this make Submerged Submarines immune to aircrafts, so DD blocker is still needed to prevent Sub to submerge before being attacked.
But how much defending Sub can be prevented from submerging with a single Destroyer to keep a good balance? One or two subs?
@Krieghund:
**Planes were very effective sub killers in reality. **However, reality suffers a bit when translated into an abstract board game. Sometimes the designers have to “fudge” one aspect of a reality-based game in order to deal with the limitations of another aspect of it. Hopefully, in the end, the two balance each other out to create a whole that abstractly mirrors reality even though the individual parts may not. The interaction between subs, destroyers and planes is a perfect example of this.
The range of air units and the size of the oceans in the game make it very easy for air units to find and eliminate subs, if air units are capable of hitting them on their own. This gives subs no place to hide and makes them “sitting ducks” for air attacks, as was demonstrated in the Revised edition. This simply doesn’t reflect the realities of anti-submarine warfare as it occured in World War II, at least until long-range aircraft were developed later in the war. Until that time, subs were very safe in the middle areas of the oceans, as planes didn’t have the range to hunt them effectively there. Most were sunk only when they were caught in the act of raiding shipping.
Adding the rule that destroyers are required as “spotters” for air attacks against subs represents the concerted effort needed to hunt and attack subs hiding out between raids. This gives subs more longevity and makes them more the fearsome foes that they actually were in the early to middle days of the war.
**It also promotes the purchase and maintenance of more well-rounded fleets, as destroyers are necessary to guard against the threat of subs. This reflects the reality that subs were a constant threat to military shipping as well, and that no convoy would travel without destroyer escorts because of that threat. **At the same time, it keeps them from being used as cheap “cannon fodder” in naval battles, as they were most often not used extensively in fleet operations, but rather as harrassing hunters where their unique properties were best utilized.
From an economic standpoint, the necessity of buying destroyers for protection against subs also reflects the economic losses sustained by raids against merchant shipping by submarines.
All of these points, taken together, allow the game to abstractly represent the economic and military threat posed by submarines in World War II. This makes subs a useful and strategic purchase in the game. I hope this sufficiently answers your concerns.
My first draw to improve interactions:
Simplifying units interactions of Transports, Submarines, Destroyers & planes
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34290.msg1320853#msg1320853
About Aircrafts, why not let them hits any units, including Subs? As it was historically the case and in many previous games before A&A 50 Anniversary.
You can read the interesting answers of Krieghund about the evolution of this rule on Aircrafts and Subs here:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=14344.msg1264872#msg1264872
Here is the most interesting point IMO:
@Krieghund:
@Baron:
So is there any version of OOB Subs rules which allow Submerge during First Strike and let planes be able to hit directly subs without DD, the sole condition is that defending sub choose not to submerge first (in such situation, fighter A3 or StB A4 will be considered as any single indestructible attacking Cruiser A3 or Battleship A4, because Sub cannot hit air units.)?
No.
@Baron:
In this condition DD still get a function because all freaking subs can always submerge before receiving any hits.
If all Subs rules after Revised always included both Submerge during First Strike and planes need DD to hit subs,
Does the simpler sub rule Submerge on First Strike phase with Air can hit subs without DD (if subs choose not to submerge) was ever play-tested?
Because, according to the uncorrected AA50 Rulebook,
Sub rule was easily understand that way (give hints to think about it),
subs (submerging before reg combat) becomes far less vulnerable than in Revised rules (submerging after regular combat),
and this rule is simpler: “simplifying unit interaction”.
Yes, it would make subs less fragile, but the thing that it would not do is keep subs from being used as fodder in fleet battles. With subs being immune to air units without a destroyer, it’s dangerous to pad a fleet with subs, since all an attacker needs to do is go in without a destroyer in order to force all of his/her air unit hits to bypass the subs and hit the more expensive units. This makes destroyers the better choice for fleet protection, as it should be.
A summary of the reasons behind OOB Subs and planes rules by Krieghund:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=23342.msg797496#msg797496
About Submarines, why not making them a more elusive and independent unit while forbidding them to serve as cannon fodder for bigger warships?
@Imperious:
Submarines should never be cannon fodder. In fact, Submarines should only participate in one round of combat and not engage in multi-surface combat actions. Their was never any major naval actions where submarines were used in a major role in such combat. They are basically sinkers of commerce ships. They participated as advance screening for fleet movements to locate and possibly sink a few ships that were passing through the area, but a sub travels at 7 knots underwater and a cruiser is at 34 knots and a battleship is 25-32 knots. That’s why the other chap in an earlier thread bought those destroyers and stopped buying battleships. (…)