@The:
CWO Marc, maybe I’ve understood your proposal wrong, but I think It’s not possible to work with written orders in A&A1940 due to the immense number of units some players have to handle. I think it would simply take to much time.
Although it is a nice idea because in this way your best plans might be spoiled by the enemy. :evil:Btw. is there any kind of initiative or are all orders being executed simultaniously?
And what happens if say Axis forces move from territory a to territory b while allied forces move from b to a?
Do they simply swap the spaces or do they clash at the border?
The ideas I outlined were just a preliminary attempt at seeing if, at first glance, a Diplomacy-type system of written orders might be compatible with the G40 system of game phases. I didn’t develop it in any detail, so I didn’t think about any elements related to initiative or border clashes, or much of anything else for that matter. I was mainly interested in seeing how the concept sounded to others, and in seeing what flaws (either glaring or subtle) they thought the concept might have. The point you mentioned about the large number of units posing a practical problem is certainly a good one.
@The:
I think It’s not possible to work with written orders in A&A1940 due to the immense number of units some players have to handle. I think it would simply take to much time.
On the other hand, note that under the current rules most of the players spend most of their time sitting around doing nothing as they watch one particular player taking his turn…so instead of spending time being bored, maybe they’d prefer spending time writing orders. At least that way everyone would be occupied most of the time. :-D
I think there are two ways to use the time while it’s not your turn:
One part of our group uses smartphones playing games or leaving the room for a smoke,
while the other studies and analyses the moves of their opponents and make plans for their next turn. And I think the latter ones are the more successful players… :wink:
… Bases are a bit better because you can build them anywhere. A lot of the gameplay interest and strategizing for this game revolves around where to place bases, or how to use existing bases, or how to counter enemy bases.
Thanks for the quick recap Barney. Helps to keep us focused. If new units or unit modifications  are something we want to explore, then the game will need a new battle board. Something that can be printed out showing the relationships with whatever attack/defense hits are altered, for easy reference. Or a printable cost/abilities chart indicating whatever combined arms might be in play.
I agree the most problematic units are cruisers and aaguns, as I almost never see these purchased. The Tac B is rather underwhelming, though it has some uses for carrier attack.
I like the +2 only if taking off from an operational airbase as suggested by YG. The airbase is probably the most important unit in the game.
I wonder if anyone else finds the OBB scrambling system a bit weird? It slows down email and forum games considerably, with constant confirmation requests. Sometimes I think its a little silly, but it’s such an important part of what makes G40 unique from a combat perspective, that I’m reluctant to change it dramatically. I feel like the air base scramble should have been more like an AAgun roll or Kamakazi token. You know, instead of putting actual fighter units into the fray, it could just be some automatic combat advantage, a free hit or whatnot. Some combat feature of the air base itself, rather than the fighters parked in the territory.Naval bases might be handled in a similar way. Basically giving both base types some functionality independent of the defenders combat units (or lack thereof.) The idea being that an airbase always has at least some kind of air defense or aircraft in place. Similarly a naval base might be assumed to have some naval defense vs ships built in.
If it was an automatic combat bonus, you wouldn’t need to constantly ask. And it avoids the issue of turn order exploits (scrambling your friends fighters) or building an airbase just to get a combat bonus exploit out of an ally’s aircraft. Also avoids the situation where a player chooses not to scramble, for fear of losing a fighter, in a situation where it would obviously have made sense to scramble if it was a battle in the real world.For example:
Air base gives the defender a free auto shot 1d6, which hits at a 3 in the territory itself or adjecent sea zone.Naval base gives the defender a free auto shot 1d6, which hits at a 3 in the sea zone itself or adjacent sea zone.
This way there is always some basic combat benefit for a base that the player can utilize automatically, and just preserve the interaction between bases and combat units as purely movement/repair related.
Alternatively if you think a defensive hit is too potent, you could make it a hit absorption instead. Then at least the airbase could “scramble” (ie absorb a hit) during an attack on the actual territory where the base is housed.
Anyone else think its odd, that there is no scrambling during an attack on the land territory where the base is actually located (the base plays no role in such instances, since the fighters are already in place defending regardless.) OOB scrambling is basically just something that happens in adjacent sea zones. But we could improve on that and make a more automatic ability instead of one that requires the attacker to wait while the defender to make a decisison.
The OOB system kind of messes turn sequence I feel, it makes planes behave a bit like subs. Where the attacker has to wait for the defended to decide, or click a prompt.
These issues about Air Base should be discuss IMO.
How many Triple A player would like a game with no OOB scramble?
If a redesigned Air Base is introduced, I believe it should simulate at least 1 Fighter presence.
Such as giving an additional hit and a defense @4 for all SZs surrounding and another D4, 1 hit for the TTy defense.
The defender can keep rolling the defense as long as the hit is not taken for casualty.
Taking the hit doesn’t affect Air Base status, only a Tactical Bombing Raid can.
(This can still be an interesting dilemma, whether applying the hit to an actual unit or to this buffer hit.)
Such feature would be like giving 1 renewed defending Fg each turn on each possible combat zone within the area of the Air Base.
@Baron:
I wonder if anyone else finds the OBB scrambling system a bit weird? It slows down email and forum games considerably, with constant confirmation requests. Sometimes I think its a little silly, but it’s such an important part of what makes G40 unique from a combat perspective, that I’m reluctant to change it dramatically.
Just a simple question about the focus of this redesign:
Do you want to improve the rules only for board games, email & forum based games (tripple a) or for both?
If your main focus is on board games, I wouldn’t bother much about things that might slow down email games.
@The:
I think there are two ways to use the time while it’s not your turn:
One part of our group uses smartphones playing games or leaving the room for a smoke,
while the other studies and analyses the moves of their opponents and make plans for their next turn. And I think the latter ones are the more successful players… :wink:
I agree. Usually when we play G40 these days, there are two people taking their turn simultaneously. Conflicts on the Europe side and those on the Pacific side stay pretty isolated for a good portion of the game and we find we can save time by having, say, USSR and Japan go simultaneously and others too. This still preserves the OOB Turn Order, it just compresses the time taken to do them.
@The:
Just a simple question about the focus of this redesign:
Do you want to improve the rules only for board games, email & forum based games (tripple a) or for both?
If your main focus is on board games, I wouldn’t bother much about things that might slow down email games.
My approach in all comments has been for improving the physical table-top game, because I don’t play TripleA. If I may speak for Black_Elk… he seems to be for improving both, but doing most of his playtesting on TripleA.
@Baron:
This is the reduced cost structure with near OOB cost for planes and Carrier holding 2 planes (Fgs or TcBs).
I also stick to this cost structure (5-6-9-12-15).
I put the 1 hit Transport at 8 IPCs.
I write here many ideas which still fit into core roster at this low cost.
All other ground units are as OOB, except for Tank which no longer gives attack bonus to TacB.Unit type
Cost Combat values
Special abilitiesSUBMARINE
5 IPCs A2fs* D1 M2
Permanent A2 first strike *against all surface vessels only, including DDs.
Cannot hit Sub or Aircraft
Submerge and Stealth Move
On offense, Sub’s commander can allocate each hit whether on transports group or warships group, the owner still choose which individual unit is the casualty.On defense, Stealth Move allows (but not compel to) each Sub 1 single roll@1 against any ships passing through the Sub’s SZ. Only each Destroyer can get a single retaliate roll @2.
DESTROYER
6 IPCs A2 D2 M2
Block Sub’s Submerge (first round only) and Stealth move, both on a 1:1 basis.TRANSPORT
8 IPCs A0 regAA1 D0 M2, 1 hit, taken as casualty according to owner’s choice.
Carry 2 units, 1 Inf + 1 any ground unit
No defense against warships,
Beginning on the second combat round, 1 Transport can escape from Naval Battle in the same SZ at each end of combat round, if there is no enemy’s aircraft.
Simply remove TP from battle board and place it in the SZ on the map.
Regular AA @1 against up to 1 plane, whichever the lesser.
Can unload in a Sub infested SZ if escorted by surface warships.If you bring them in with attackers - as you would for amphibious - then any defense shots in excess of what is needed to sink the accompany ships MUST be applied to any transports until all shots are accounted for or there are no units left to assign them to. (Per OOB rule.)
CRUISER
9 IPCs A3 D3 M3
Shore Bombard 3
Gives +1 move to 1 surface vessel, paired 1:1FLEET CARRIER
12 IPCs A0 D2 M2, 2 hits,
Carry 2 planes,
damaged Carrier still carry one aircraft.BATTLESHIP
15 IPCs A4 D4 M2, 2 hits,
Shore Bombard 4Both repair at purchase and repair phase in a SZ adjacent to a Naval Base SZ, or in NB SZ.
Naval Base cannot repair more than 3 warships hits per turn.FIGHTER
9 IPCs10 IPCsA3 D4 M4
SBR: A2 D2, interceptors always destroy bombers first.TACTICAL BOMBER
10 IPCs12 IPCsA4 D3 M4
TBR: A1first strike, Damage D6 on AB or NB,
SBR: can do escort mission for StBs without bombing AB or NB.STRATEGIC BOMBER
12 IPCs No cost change A4 D1 M6
SBR: AA A1first strike up to two Fighters, whichever the lesser,
Damage on IC, AB, NB D6+2 /minimum damage 2 pts if hit by IC’s/AB or NB’s AA gun.
No damage when destroyed by intercepting Fighters.All aircrafts can hit unsubmerged Submarines without Destroyer presence.
ANTI-AIRCRAFT ARTILLERY
4 IPCs A0 D1 AAx2* M1 CM or NCM, 1 hit,
Taken as last casualty on offence.
*Fire each round @1 first strike against up to two aircrafts, which ever the lesser.
Regular defense @1 if there is no enemy’s plane.
For A&A board game, I really like a ship cost structure based mostly on 3 IPCs increment, the same as the basic 1 Infantry.
Adding a 5 IPCs Sub to fit in this easy to calculate number, which AAA defensive cannot assume.
However, such reduced cost makes planes a bit too weak.
Here is two cost changes on Fighter and Tactical Bomber (with A4) to better fit inside the warship cost structure.
This would give a 9-10-12 IPCs structure for planes. (2 which can be divided by 3, and one which is twice 5 IPCs)
So Black_Elk, I believe you want planes to be less effective than OOB. Assuming that mobility and ability to fight on air, on sea and on earth makes for a potent weapon while warships stay on SZ and can never conquer land TTs.
Here is the small twist, Fighter A3 D4 M4 is put at the same place than Cruiser A3 D3 M3?… Both 9 IPCs.
At 10 IPCs, Tactical Bomber A4 D3 M4 stays 1 IPC higher than Fighter, and so becomes costlier than a Cruiser.
Finally, since many people complains about Strategic Bomber high attack value and very long range, which can be deploy almost everywhere in a short notice, I suggest to keep it at the same price as OOB (12 IPCs), which in this case makes it the same cost as a G40 2 hits Carrier, which is 16 IPCs OOB.
So Fighters and Tactical Bomber are very near OOB (-1 IPC) compared to ground units, while loosing some edge against Subs, Destroyers and Cruisers, but not too much.
However, Strategic bombers stay the same against ground units, but becomes far less powerful, on the same IPC basis against any warships. (This would be the end of Darken Sky strategies)
From an OOB perspective comparing planes vs warships, if warships were keeping OOB, it is like:
Fighter has risen to 12 IPCs (same as OOB Cruiser),
Tactical Bomber has risen to 14 IPCs (same as 1942.2 1 hit Carrier= or 2 OOB Transports)
and Strategic Bomber has risen to 16 IPCs (same as OOB G40 2 hits Carrier).
Such cost structure gives this schematic:
Land / Sea / Air
Basic Defensive unit: Infantry 3 / Destroyer 6 / Fighter 9 IPCs
Offensive unit with more range: Tank 6 / Cruiser 9 / Strategic Bomber 12 IPCs
Special offensive unit: Artillery or MechInf 4 / Submarine 5 / Tactical Bomber 10 IPCs
Special defensive unit: AAA 4 IPCs / 1 hit, Transport with AA 8 IPCs/ 2 hits, Carrier for 2 planes 12 IPCs
Special off/deff unit: Battleship A4 D4 M2, 2 hits, 15 IPCs
Just to jump in quickly on break at work.
Yes the goal is to improve both table top and tripleA play. :)
I’m not opposed to a fighter at 9, and bombers (Tac and Strat) at 12. This would give the air cost a similar basis in infantry increments (in blocks divisible by 3) like we discussed for naval.
Back after the grind. Keep em coming! :-D
Just to jump in quickly on break at work.
Yes the goal is to improve both table top and tripleA play. :)
I’m not opposed to a fighter at 9, and bombers (Tac and Strat) at 12. This would give the air cost a similar basis in infantry increments (in blocks divisible by 3) like we discussed for naval.
Back after the grind. Keep em coming! :-D
If the relative power between ground vs Air units is important, keep 10 and 12.
People are very use to these cost for Fighter and Strategic Bomber.
Easier to play with, easier for memory, old habits stronger.
If warships were at OOB cost, then the relative cost of warships vs Air is:
10 IPCs Fighter is like a rise to 14 IPs.
12 IPCs Tactical and Strategic Bomber is like a rise to 16 IPCs.
The odd number 11 IPCs for OOB Tactical Bomber would be like a rise to 15 IPCs.
@Baron:
@Baron:
@Young:
I always liked the classic SBR rules where you roll a dice per bomber and take that amount straight from their cash on hand. Off the top of my head, I would do something like… 1 or more warships in a convoy zone allows for 1d6 to take cash.
A more conservative idea on Convoy disruption: a 5 IPCs cap per Convoy SZ (cost of one Submarine (as long as cost structure is accepted), as refence, the cheaper of the naval unit) on all of them. This is also the OOB average IPCs which can be lost in Convoy SZ.
Actually, the OOB average is around 4.6 IPCs per Convoy SZ.
The total IPCs lost due to all raids could not be more than what is outside a direct ground route to an individual Capital Power.
If at least 1 TT bordering a Convoy SZ is on enemy’s hand, this SZ can be raid.
If two Allied Powers share a Convoy SZ, the economical damage must be split as evenly as possible between the two according to the number of TT owned.
Also riping off the cash on hand is applied directly during attacker’s phase.
Instead of direct naval combat on enemy’s ships, Submarine can be able to roll 1D6 damage per Sub in a Convoy SZ on the attacker turn. This could be easy to apply if you use attacker’s Control Markers in the Convoy SZ as reminder.
Example, from Convoy Raid, UK Europe could lost everything except the 2+6 homeland IPCs.
Germany can only loose what is in Africa or Finland-Norway, and from a conquered UK, or any North American conquered TT.
USA can only loose money from Brazil, Islands TTs, and from others conquered TTs on Europe, Asia or Africa.
Japan can only save homeland 8 IPCs.
Italy could only loose what is in Africa.
URSS have nothing to loose.
Etc.
Warships as a whole fleet can raid an empty Convoy SZ for 1D6.
Each Submarine can either attack enemy’s warships and TPs in a Convoy SZ or raid the Merchant Convoy, for 1D6 damage.
(Some may prefer to keep the damage roll as OOB (1-3 IPCs/4-6=0 IPCs) and double roll for Sub,
but I wouldn’t recommend it, the avg dmg are too low: 1 IPC or 2 IPCs for Sub.)
**Each Tac bomber can raid an empty Convoy SZ for 1D6 damage,
Each Strategic bomber can raid an empty Convoy SZ for 1D6+2 damage.
But Fighter cannot perform any raid, here Merchant Convoy Raid.
All attack rolls must submit to a Convoy preemptive defense @1,**
coming from Destroyer Escorts, Corvettes and AA gun added on Merchants ships.
1 preemptive roll per each Submarine, TcB, StB or 1 preemptive roll for a whole fleet of warships.
To increase some kind of Convoy raid such as in Battle of the Atlantic and subwarfare, Submarine needs probably to be a able to fight both naval combat AND economic battle in a given round of play.
Here is my suggestion:
**Sub either attacks surface vessels and TPs OR makes a Merchants’ ships Convoy Raid (MCR)
in Convoy SZ, as suggested above, damage per Submarine unit: 1D6 IPCs taken from enemy’s hand.
But this time, defender can roll@1 against each Sub doing a raid, this picturing the Destroyer Escorts and Corvettes work.
Also, as YG suggested, I would make a warships group (from 1 to many units) able to do MCR if there is no enemy’s warship in the Convoy SZ. Damage is 1D6 IPCs for the whole group, which is also subject to Destroyer Escort defense, but only 1 single roll @1 against any number of attacking warships.
(This rule mechanic for MCR would be similar to SBR.)
In addition, Shipping Lines Disruption (SLD) is available to any Sub (no matter if it attacked or made a raid, or was on the move earlier in the turn) which is alive after NCM and still in a Convoy SZ.
Each Sub doing Shipping Line Disruption destroys 1 IPC from enemy’s hand.
This could simulate how Subs Staying on Station are ready to fall on any defenseless lonely pray passing by.
5 IPCs maximum still apply per Convoy SZ.**
This 5 IPCs cap can also be an incentive to scatter Subs in many Convoy SZs as much as possible to optimize IPCs losses.
In addition, this SLD for Sub make them more cost efficient on economic damage at sea:
avg 2.944 IPCs (1.944 per MCR+ 1 per SLD) VS StB 1.75 IPCs per MCR only.
StB would be better against isolated IC, avg 2.583 IPCs per raid and more (2.916 IPCs/SBR) depending on which SBR rule used.
According to both HR game mechanics I suggested, you can see both StBs (2.916 IPCs/SBR) and Subs (2.944IPCs/ MCR+SLD) would be statistically on par against their favorite target.
However, another feature is required to keep track of the IPCs loss per Convoy SZ.
For each IPC paid due to MCR or SLD in a given SZ, put 1 attacker’s Control Marker in this Convoy SZ.
When it reaches 5 markers (you can also use plastic chips under 1 Control Marker, each chip worth 1 so a single 5 red chip would mean that a given SZ has been emptied of goods), any additional IPC damage in this individual SZ have no effect.
That way, the raided player would have a mean to remember how much damage was taken per each individual SZ during the whole game round and how many powers made the raid.
Example, Italy in 1 Adriatic SZ can be MCR by UK and USA, if UK ripe off Italy of 3 IPCs and USA rolls for 5 damage, it will be easy to stop at 2 IPCs by looking on the number of UK’s Control Markers/chips.
I believe it is one of the situation which make Larry put Convoy Disruption just before the Collect income phase of a Power, instead of the attacking Power’s turn.
**To simplify things, I would lower the cap to 4 IPCs per Convoy SZ.
Germany and Italy cannot lose from raiders more per turn than 4 IPCs each.
No matter the number of Convoy SZs which were raided.**
(Maybe up to 8 IPCs for Germany?)
Atlantic SZ near Bordeaux and Mediterranean SZ near Southern France seem an overstretched when these TTs are conquered.
IDK how to deal with this otherwise.
Because German’s and Italian’s economy is mostly based on exchange with direct land neighbours and less dependant to merchant’s marine than Allies and Japan.
But OOB makes Axis suffered a lot more from Convoy Disruption than Allies, this seems an aberration to me.
**Russia cannot lose any IPCs from Convoy raiders.
UK Europe and UK Pacific have no limit.
USA has no limit.
Anzac has no limit.
Japan has no limit.**
With such cap at 4 IPCs,
StB odds would be 3.194 -2 = 1.194 IPCs/MCR
TcB odds would be 2.5 -2 = 0.5 IPCs/MCR
Sub odds would be 2.5 -0.833 = 1.667 IPCs/MCR + 1 IPC/SLD = 2.667 IPCs/Raid
Compared to economic damage on IC or Bases, aircrafts are less efficient:
OOB G40 SBR StB on IC only 4.583 -2= 2.583 IPCs/SB Raid
G40 SBR HRed with StB taken down by IC’AA gun able to do 2 IPCs damage:
4.916 -2= 2.916 IPCs/SB Raid
TBR with Tactical B (12 IPCs) dmg 1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +2.917 - 2 = +0.917 IPCs damage/TB Raid
**Also this gives a progressive increment of even numbers for economical damage caps:
Convoy SZ has a maximum damage of 4 IPCs.
Air Base, Naval Base and Minor IC have a maximum damage of 6 IPCs.
Major Industrial Complex have a maximum damage of 20 IPCs.
And, if any Medium IC producing up to 5 units could be introduced, Med IC would have a max damage of 10 IPCs.**
Re: proposed convoy rules, sounds like a whole lot of extra complexity (faction-specific rules, really?) without a commensurate improvement in gameplay mechanics or enjoyability.
Rarely does one hear any complaints about convoy/blockade mechanics as a problem with the current game design. It isn’t. It works fine. The fact that blockading convoys can have a crippling impact on one’s IPCs is both historically correct and an important (though hardly sufficient, by itself) counterbalance to the strong axis-advantage in the game.
The same goes for airbase scrambling, which happens to be one of the more enjoyable aspects unique to G40. Why should it be changed? Because somebody wants faster email games? Pft.
If the goal is to come up with a redesign that is played and enjoyed by folks other than its creators, two principles should govern: first, if ain’t broke don’t fix it and, second, KISS (keep it simple stupid).
Regarding the proposed collapsing/reordering of turns in order to eliminate Italian “can openers,” why exactly is canopening a problem? It adds strategic depth to the game.
But assuming the elimination of italian “can openers” is the goal, here’s a simpler solution: make Germany and Italy one faction.
Historically, the Italian Army did serve what could be described as a “can-opening” roll on the Eastern Front in 1942. See, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_participation_in_the_Eastern_Front#August_1941_.E2.80.93_July_1942.2C_CSIR_Operations
“The ARMIR advanced toward the right bank of the Don River which was reached by July 1942. In August, the highly-mobile riflemen (Bersaglieri) of the Prince Amedeo Duke of Aosta Fast Division eliminated the Soviet bridgehead at Serafimovič. In the same month, with the support of German tanks, the Bersaglieri repelled a Soviet attack during the first defensive battle of the Don.”
Re: proposed convoy rules, sounds like a whole lot of extra complexity (faction-specific rules, really?) without a commensurate improvement in gameplay mechanics or enjoyability.
At least, now StBombers can destroy Merchant’s ships. Even if it is not the optimized tactics. And both TcB and StB can raid from a coastal TT. No need to be on a Carrier to perform this raid now.
Rarely does one hear any complaints about convoy/blockade mechanics as a problem with the current game design. It isn’t. It works fine. The fact that blockading convoys can have a crippling impact on one’s IPCs is both historically correct and an important (though hardly sufficient, by itself) counterbalance to the strong axis-advantage in the game.
If the goal is to come up with a redesign that is played and enjoyed by folks other than its creators, two principles should govern: first, if ain’t broke don’t fix it and, second, KISS (keep it simple stupid).
If people want to play an OOB G39 or G42 or else, Larry, Oztea and maybe others have created such set-up.
I just know that at least Black_Elk and YG would have liked a Convoy mechanics which is not different than SBR. After all, these are both ecomomical war.
So, you get no different game mechanic.
But, first issue is about keeping track of damage, still about the same way as it is against IC, AB or NB: you put chips under them. Again, same method in the Convoy SZ. Simpler from this perspective, one less game mechanic to learn.
Second issue, the Convoy SZ positioning on G40 map. The OOB rule produces during game the opposite of the intended general principles: picturing WWII Commerce raiding and all Subwarfare it generates. The most historical feature is the Battle of Atlantic which U-boats menace almost kneel down UK.
But, in actual game, it is Italy post-Taranto raid which is kneel down by UK, mostly because of Adriatic Convoy Zone. In addition, Normandy-Bordeaux Convoy SZ generates Germany’s gamey move such as not taking the TT to counter Allies raiders in this SZ.
As a France Convoy SZ it works, but as a German’s one, it doesn’t fit into history.
Also U-boats are not that useful against UK economy.
So, I believe this is an issue that can be adress in a better way than OOB.
I suggested 1 fix about limiting such Convoy Damage on both Italy and Germany. You don’t like it, me neither. As you can read, it is at least the third version of a first draft on Convoy Raid rules.
It is an on going process. It is very difficult to get fine tuning on the first draft.
At least now, it is an alternate mechanics for Convoy Disruption which gives the initiative to attacker during his turn and not the reverse as OOB which requires a strong naval defense against the raided players to make a fruitful Convoy Raid. Just see the non-sense of moving x Subs into such SZ and wait to see how many subs survived the raided power attack with very few DDs and a lot of planes. A totally inept economical warfare, since Subs are better on offense.
With this SBR/MCR mechanics, x Subs entering an empty Convoy SZ will certainly gets 4 IPCs damage before being subject to a devastating retaliation attack (DDs & aircrafts) from the raided Power.
Switching this phase from raided power’s turn to raiding power’s turn is the most important feature. I believe this can solve one aspect of historical issue, but this need to be tested to see if it produces what is expected.
I think i see what you’re going for now, and it makes sense. Just a question of how it is executed.
One easy way to promote submarine-play in the atlantic without a complete overhaul of OOB convoy-blockading system (which works quite well in the Pacific, as others have noted) is simply to add a National Objective for UK Europe, something like: 3 PUs for UK if there are no enemy submarines in the Atlantic (excluding szs 112, 125-127).
This is quite similar to the NO that was part of the original G40 game, and is actually something I have play-tested extensively in tandem with other allied NOs in a balance mod. I can attest that this NO does promote sub production and warfare by Germany in the Atlantic, creating a kind of cat-and-mouse dynamic between the Royal Navy and German uboat fleet. Occassionally, a german uboat can even sneak into an allied convoy zone in relative safety, having an even greater impact on allied income.
As for szs 105 and sz 97, if the convoy zones here are problematic, perhaps the best solution is simply to remove them?
I think i see what you’re going for now, and it makes sense. Just a question of how it is executed.
One easy way to promote submarine-play in the atlantic without a complete overhaul of OOB convoy-blockading system (which works quite well in the Pacific, as others have noted) is simply to add a National Objective for UK Europe, something like: 3 PUs for UK if there are no enemy submarines in the Atlantic (excluding szs 112, 125-127).
This is quite similar to the NO that was part of the original G40 game, and is actually something I have play-tested extensively in tandem with other allied NOs in a balance mod. I can attest that this NO does promote sub production and warfare by Germany in the Atlantic, creating a kind of cat-and-mouse dynamic between the Royal Navy and German uboat fleet. Occassionally, a german uboat can even sneak into an allied convoy zone in relative safety, having an even greater impact on allied income.
As for szs 105 and sz 97, if the convoy zones here are problematic, perhaps the best solution is simply to remove them?
These two solutions have the merit to be easier to implement.
About the No Axis Submarine in Atlantic SZ for UK Europe, it is truly interesting.
The strange thing is the cat-and-mouse game is reversed from a historical strategic level in ATO in which U-boats were chasing Merchant’s cargo ships. But, between U-boats and Allied warships the cats are clearly Allied Destroyers, Carriers and planes, and U-boats play the mice.
So this NO should be added to increase the Atlantic action. As such, your game experience on this point gives garanties that it works.
And, whichever the Convoy Disruption mechanic that Black_Elk will prefer such NO can be added.
It works with both mechanics.
On removing Convoy SZ 105 (Bordeaux) and SZ 97 (Adriatic), I have another solution which can provided similar results which also includes SZ 93 (Southern France) too.
On Europe Map only, a Convoy SZ is active as long as original owning Power have a TT bordering the SZ.
For Neutral TTs changing hands, it is as OOB.
So, any Power which gains ownership of Neutral TT becomes a target in this given Convoy SZ.
Otherwise, the Convoy SZ is rendered inactive.
SZ 97 would still be limited to 4 IPCs cap, and it is OK for Italy.
SZ 125 works for Germany (Narvik’s iron shipping) and the 4 IPCs cap apply.
And turn inactive if Allies invade Norway.
SZ 105 and 93 would become inactive after France conquest.
And about SZ 80 near Saudi Arabia, all surrounding TTs were Neutral and in this case the Convoy SZ would switch according to the new owners.
Same for SZ 85 (Brazil), it is Neutral at the opening round.
In case of Sea Lion invasion of UK, SZ 109 and SZ 119 would not affect Germany.
There will be no change on Pacific Map, Convoy SZs work according to OOB.
**In addition, Shipping Lines Disruption (SLD) is available to any Sub (no matter if it attacked or made a raid, or was on the move earlier in the turn) which is alive after NCM and still in a Convoy SZ.
Each Sub doing Shipping Line Disruption destroys 1 IPC from enemy’s hand.**
Another feature which is implied from SLD is that Wolfpack attack is somehow imbedded into it.
If you bring 4 Subs into a Convoy SZ, there is no need to Convoy Raid and risk the escort defense @1. Just wait the SLD phase to rip off all the 4 IPCs from the Power owning the given Convoy SZ, at no risk.
On the other hand, splitting 4 Subs into 4 SZs to make more Convoy Raids and economical damage (up to 4 x 4 =16 IPCs) but at the risk of 4 defensive preemptive rolls @1 from DEscorts is another interesting tactic. Because chasing Subs in 4 SZs is harder than chasing 1 group of 4 Subs located in a single SZ.
Sorry I haven’t been around to participate in the discussion much this week. I’m deep in the throws of a move/renovation.
I’d say keeping it simple has been a fairly consistent aim of mine. I’m not sure that the OOB rules are particularly simple, familiar maybe, but if they can be improved upon in certain areas without too much rules overhead I’m not opposed to exploring other options. We haven’t settled on anything as yet so I’m happy to brainstorm and take opinions.
I’m not a huge fan of the OOB convoy system, because it doesn’t seem to produce the desired gameplay effects in the Atlantic, and for all the reasons Baron noted. I know this rule has also been the cause of confusion for newer players because the wording is rather ambiguous in the manual as to when these “attacks” are meant to occur (eg on the defending nations turn). Not that new players are our target audience, I’m just not sure the OOB rules are all that spectacular beyond nixing Italy out of the med.
I like the concept of the NO for uboats, though I think it’d be nice if Germany had to do more than just launch a single uboat to collect it. Something that encourages the German player to fan out and get the wolf packs prowling would be nice. I think the OOB rules work better in the pacific, but that theater has its own set of challenges in other areas. I think the lackluster Battle of the Altantic on the Europe side and island hopping campaign in the Pacific are probably the two things I’d like to deal with in any redux
The scramble mention was just to put it on the table. Whether people are interested in trying something new or just keeping the familiar OOB dynamic. I’m not pushing a new scramble too hard. I’ve just heard it mentioned before that it might be an element of the game worth expanding upon.
:-)
@Baron:
On Europe Map only, a Convoy SZ is active as long as original owning Power have a TT bordering the SZ.
For Neutral TTs changing hands, it is as OOB.
So, any Power which gains ownership of Neutral TT becomes a target in this given Convoy SZ.
Otherwise, the Convoy SZ is rendered inactive.
. . .There will be no change on Pacific Map, Convoy SZs work according to OOB.
Again, this gets into the problem of faction-specific rules, which seem like a “forced,” solution. Ideally, the rule set that is ultimately agreed upon will create the desired gameplay/historial conditions organically, without the need for seemingly arbitrary distinctions and restrictions.
Regarding Black_Elk’s comments:
I like the concept of the NO for uboats, though I think it’d be nice if Germany had to do more than just launch a single uboat to collect it.
Having play tested the “no-sub” NO, together with the OOB NOs, and some others, my experience has been that it actually does result in more dynamic sub-play than you might expect. How so?
First, there are actually 2 “sub” Nos. . . one for Russian lend lease (sz 125) and the other for the Atlantic (excluding sz 112, 125-127 as aforesaid). Where the german player only has one sub, a choice must be made. Second, it is usually not enough for the German player to simply deploy a sub in the production phase to defeat the NO, because sz 112 is excluded, and any subs constructed elsewhere in the atlantic (e.g. the channel) are extremely vulnerable. So a little bit of canniness is required. If multiple subs survive G1 (e.g., in szs 91 or 106) , it is not unusual for the German player to start moving them to remote corners of the Atlantic (up by Newfoundland, or down into the South Atlantic) to evade allied destroyers and require Allied ships to move out position. And, if a uboat makes it around the horn of africa, this negates yet another sub-NO for UK-Pacific. All promoting very nice historical dynamic for sub warfare. This in addition to the traditional combat role that subs serve. . . hey, they can sink warships too! So the NOs do seem to achieve much of what is desired.
As for the learning curve on the OOB rules, I agree they’re not always a model of elegant simplicity in all areas. But, as you say, they are familiar, widely accepted by the community. That is a huge selling point. A very high burden should be applied to any proposed, material change.
In case you guys wanted to give it a try, attached is a playable saved-game containing the most recent iteration of the “Balance Mod” NOs. The details are as follows:
Global 1940 Second Edition - Balanced Mod
Revision Credits: Adam514, aznz, dss85, Gencre, regularkid
**REVISIONS **
Revised Air Raid Rules: Fighters attack and defend at 2. Strategic and tactical bombers attack at 1.
**Additional National Objectives **
UK
3 PUs for UK Europe if Allies control at least 2 of: Sicily, Sardinia, Greece (“Southern Europe Beach Head”).
3 PUs for UK Europe if Malta, Crete, and Cyprus are Allied or pro-Allied controlled (“Control of Mediterranean Shipping Lanes”).
3 PUs for UK Europe if there are no enemy submarines in the Atlantic, excluding szs 112 and 125-127 (“Control of Atlantic Shipping Lanes”).
3 PUs for UK Pacific when at war with the Japanese if: (1) British control West India and Egypt; and (2) there are no enemy submarines in the western half of the Indian Ocean (sz71,…,sz81) (“Control of Indian Ocean Shipping Lanes”).
USA
5 PUs if Allies control at least 2 of: Normandy Bordeaux, Holland Belgium, Southern France, and USA has at least one land unit in any of these territories (“Western Europe Beach Head”).
5 PUs if Allies control Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia, and USA has at least one land unit in any of these territories (“North Africa Beach Head”).
5 PUs if USA is at war and controls Midway, Wake Island, Guam (“Pacific Airbases”).
5 PUs if USA is at war and Allies control Marshall Islands, Caroline Islands, Paulau Island, Marianas (“Vital Forward Bases”).
Revised National Objectives
Russia
3 PUs for each originally German, Italian, or Pro-Axis neutral territory that Russia controls in mainland Europe (“Spread of Communism”).
2 PUs for each of the following Lend-Lease lanes that is open if Russia is at war with European Axis and no allied units are present in any originally Russian territories: (Persia, sz 80), (Amur, sz 5), (Archangel, sz 125); An additional 1 PU per open Lend-Lease lane if Japan has declared war on Russia (“Lend Lease”).
