@Black_Elk:
The thing that always rubbed me the wrong way with NOs (since they were first introduced in AA50) is that they involve a huge amount of tracking by the players, for a comparatively small payoff. […] I am constantly searching for ways to change National Objectives into Generic Objectives (objectives that work the same way for everyone.) And to preserve the idea of a National Objective (only where necessary) as being much more focused and limited in scope. I’d prefer a scheme where a similar amount of “bonus” money was still introduced, but in a way that’s easier to track.
I think of it from a gameplay perspective. If the game includes National Objectives, not only do you need to be aware of your own, but you need to conside everyone else’s objectives as well. And because none of that information is represented graphically on the map, it demands a pretty onerous amount of memorization from each participant in the game. I accept that this is unavoidable to a certain extent for novelty and to give each nation it’s own unique flavor. I just think it could be accomplished with fewer total objectives. I think 3 each would be manageable, and then make up the difference either by giving those NOs a higher value, or by augmenting it with generic objectives shared by all. Such as for control of VCs, or battle bonuses, or what have you.
I understand where you are coming from here. I agree that NOs, as they stand, are not entirely consistent or scientific. I often wonder how much mathematical consideration was given to the NO impact when G40 was designed… Any consideration? Or was it simply a historic premise and a perceived need for the money so they were adopted based on what sounded/looked best?
For example, the UK (Europe) only has one NO totaling 5 IPCs. Italy has four NOs totaling 17 IPCs. ANZAC has two NOs totaling 10 IPCs. Did the designers just run out of ideas for Britain? Did they think that Britain has a sufficient cashflow and didn’t need bonuses? Did Britain really not have any other significant National Objectives or strategic motivations in the European war? Besides which, the UK Europe NO is rather bland and unimaginative (all original territories). Keeping all original territories is already the goal of every player.
A full 20 IPCs of US income is based on NOs that involve keeping original territories. These are territories that are basically unassailable by Japan or Germany in my experience. This tells me that NOs are not entirely random but that some are integral to a Power’s ability to fight the war.
Tracking your own can be difficult enough, but strategically you have to be aware of everyone else’s too. Indicating them on the map somehow is a great idea. Cards are good, but they are less graphically descriptive. As for a set amount for each Power… I am neither for or against. It kind of goes back to my question about if some Powers have more because they need more money or more strategic incentive or because the designers ran out of ideas?
@Black_Elk:
And I don’t like the name “UK” for a Pacific faction to begin with, so there’s that as well haha.
Me neither. It is dumb. We just call it India during play.
@Black_Elk:
Would you maybe rather have split economies for everyone? Or for everyone relevant, like US, UK, and Russia? That might work, and might solve some issues with the Japan vs USA, Japan vs Russia situation. Though again seems like it might be more complicated than its worth.
Haha… ABSOLUTELY NOT! As I said before, with the UK it was more of an acceptance thing. I certainly don’t want to do it deliberately to another country. For the US it would make sense, sort of, but I would never advocate it. For the USSR I think it would be both disastrous (for both the USSR and Japan) and unrealistic.
@Black_Elk:
If you wanted to control the spending of income, I’d do that on the placement side somehow, the way Jennifer suggested. X IPCs, or X units must be placed on one side or the other, or maybe both. It could perhaps be tied to the factory unit itself?
This is something that hasn’t been tried yet in A&A, or at least not at full scale. I mean the idea that Major Factories have an IPC spending cap, as well as a production cap. Or perhaps its not a cap, but a minimum, or an allowance. […] This would necessarily ground/distribute the spending where the production is actually located.
It just seems odd how you have such a concentration of income into some factories, at the expense of others in A&A. I mean wouldn’t nearly all the facilities that a nation controls be producing arms in any given span of time?
Distributing production (evenly) where you have factories or somehow placement tied to the relative size of those factories seems reasonable, but I do not like the idea. I think the freedom to place where you need and want is more important than the forced realism of such a restriction. Like I have said before, at this scale of strategic gameplay, I think you begin to straddle the line between the more realistic tactical and logistic considerations governing a war and the simplifications needed for ease of play. To me, a factory rule like this only complicates the ease of play.
My general philosophy for A&A rules is that I believe in limits, not mandates. Same with factories, limits (based on either the major/minor distinction or the old way of territory value) are reasonable in that you don’t want Germany dropping all 70 IPCs of new units in Stalingrad after they capture it. This forces a spread of unit placement all by itself. But to mandate that Germany always place a certain number of units in certain territories puts a handicap on strategic planning. For the USSR this would not be a huge issue since all their factories are more or less on the front lines. But for the UK this could be especially problematic. This would defeat the strategic financial flexibility that Marc referenced in combining India with Britain and it would also dictate purchases to some extent. Suppose the UK must put at least 2 units in their S. Africa factory per turn. What if Africa is basically won? What if the UK needs units in England for an invasion? The UK will be out 6 IPCs every turn because that is the bare minimum they can spend to satisfy the factory requirement. Same situation for the factory in Canada. Now they are out 6 more IPCs.
@Black_Elk:
As Marc pointed out, there were ways for nations to increase their production capacity that didn’t necessitate conquering new territories. But in the game the only way to increase your IPC total is to take land from the enemy or from neutrals. If not the factory unit, than I guess what I’m proposing is a unit or marker that generates money or expands the economy directly. Not a moveable resource scheme, since that involves a whole other set of challenges. I’m thinking something simpler, just a token on the map that generates cash (that must be spent at THAT location) which can be placed to anchor the purchasing gameplay.
My rationale for the income system OOB is that it already accounts for peak economy. Increase or decrease in economic power is reflected in the taking and losing of territory as the game progresses. This is a convenient but simple way to account for production increase over time. My impression, without hard facts on hand, is that the only nations to very significantly increase their productive capacity between 1940 and 1945 were the Soviet Union and the United States. The production/economy centers of the United States were mostly removed from the war and unassailable. So the jump of the US economy to 80 IPCs right away is understandable. The US never really shrank territorially nor did their industrial base fall under assault.
The USSR is a more of a unique case. Even as they were compressed and losing territory they actually began producing more. I am in the middle of the book Stalingrad by Anthony Bevor and just last night read about how German tank production in 1942 was (I believe) 500 tanks per month. Hitler simply refused to believe that the Soviets were reportedly producing 1200 tanks per month. In fact, this estimate was much too low. By September of 1942 (with the USSR at its territorial lowest point of the war), they were approaching 2000 per month in tank production.
In short, I don’t believe we need an extra IPC generating element. I feel that tying these undefined IPCs to some sort of expanding or contracting mechanism may be a little too complex and fluid for proper integration into the game. What would this generation be tied to, if anything? If we scrip a racheted increase over time, we are essentially trying to push the game in one direction and remove the initiative away from strategy and towards… fate? Similar to the time-clock that ratchets down Japan’s IPCs, but this time it ratchets them up (mostly for the Allies from my perspective). Control of the ability to produce would be taken from the players and set with some element separate from the physical board.
@Black_Elk:
This doesn’t totally solve the essential problem of units “going the wrong way” or marching off in wildly “ahistorical” total one dimensional directions. That problem goes beyond just the purchasing location where units are spawned, and moves into a broader “movement” phase issues, where units wander around the map after they’re purchased/spawned. There’s probably no way to really force players to play somewhere, unless you include a movement restriction/allowance of some sort. But production restrictions/allowances could get you at least half way there.
Again, Limits vs Mandates… it is not my intent with rule revisions to script the game or to further impose on players what they must do. I would rather see mechanisms that foster more realistic decisions and options.
@Black_Elk:
Right now you can be awarded money for conquering land, or achieving objectives, but the money never has any strings attached. What if instead of “+10 ipcs”, an objective read something like “+10 IPC, to spend in Central USA” where the objective bonuses counted during the purchase units phase, rather than the collect income phase? Things like that would allow you to control the flow a bit more, even if you wanted to stay within an NO type framework.
This isn’t a bad idea. I am not sure how you would want to structure it, but NOs may be the most proper place. Since they are essentially bonus money, NOs could have strings attached… as in the units must be placed in a certain territory. I am willing to try that. However, doing so may likewise split the money pool to the point that it influences unit purchases.
