I played a game where my Japanese counterpart played this strategy upon my recommendation. It was a disaster for us, because it was just not practical for controlling Asia, at all.
Australia IC
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You have all the information on allied fleet positions.
1 Transport (UK at Borneo)
1 Transport (UK at New Guinea)
1 Submarine (UK at Solomons)
1 Destroyer, 1 Aircraft Carrier (UK at Kwangtung)2 Fighters, 1 Aircraft Carrier, 1 Submarine at Hawaii
1 Battleship, 1 Transport at W. USA
1 Destroyer C. USAI mean, it’s not like America has had a chance to move yet. And the Russia fleet makes no difference and the British fleet in the North Atlantic likewise has no bearing on the situation of Japan 1. By the time it can effect Japan the game should be on approximately round 5 or 6, at the earliest.
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1. If the Allies positioned their fleets poorly, Japan navy kills the entire UK navy and air in the Indian Ocean, while Japanese air and ground attack China and Burytia, with extremely high probability of taking both with at least two-four infantry surviving in both. Assuming all allied air is out of position to attack French Indochina, one infantry remains at French Indochina to force Allied attack of at least two infantry or commitment of USSR tank (either quite acceptable). Japan builds three transports west of Japan with Japanese battleship escort to prevent probable UK bomber or US long range aircraft attack. In future rounds, Japan builds one or two transports, a few infantry, and fighters.
What forces do you plan to use to do this? You have to overcome 6 Infantry in Buryatia, 2 Infantry and a Fighter in China. You have 1 Transport, 1 Battleship in range to assist in Buryatia. You have 7 infantry, 2 fighters on the mainland, of which only 2 of those infantry can actually reach Buryatia.
Actual Numbers:
Japan can attack with 3 Infantry, 1 Armor, 4 Fighters, 1 Battleship and 1 Bomber vs 6 Infantry on Buryatia. 1 Infantry of the stack surviving, plus the rest of the equipment.
That leaves 5 Infantry, 2 Fighters that can reach China. 3 Infantry, 2 Fighters survive, on average.
That leaves no airpower nor any battleships to attack Pearl. Resulting in a MASSIVE gain for the Allies be saving 2 fighters, 1 aircraft carrier and 1 submarine there. (Unless you plan to attack it with 1 destroyer only, the only other naval vessel in range not being used elsewhere needs to move to SZ 60 to retrieve a fighter, presumably???)
So what’s the situation? You have wasted 100% of your attack resources in plundering 3 IPCs in land value you normally would have gotten anyway but you are down 5 IPCs to England, the American fleet is unscathed, the British fleet is in position to sting more islands on UK2 with forces they never expected to have around anyway, and if they loose, so what?
There are other possibilities depending on the Allied move.
2. Take India immediately.
3. Do Pearl Harbor, plus three transports and battleship EAST of Japan at end of unit placement, going for immediate defense of Asia. USSR has to pull out of Burytia on USSR 2, or commit tanks and/or fighters to counterattack Japan’s forces which will give Germany a far easier time in the west.
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It is almost certain that Japan can do AT LEAST one of these. The first option is attack-oriented, the second is stall-oriented, the third is defense-oriented.
The last two make more sense. It doesn’t over extend you. But I’d actually say sink the british fleet. As I said, if you leave those transports alone, what’s to stop England from trying for Philippines, East Indies and/or Okinawa? Or even taking all those units and taking India and or FIC back?
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Aussie complex is a crazy idea. Any B SE asian island complex is NUTZ. Against a decent player it is a sure lose tactic.
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So as Japan I let Bury LIVE for 1 turn.
Big deal, it is 1 IPC, and if I still take China, I can potential out-flank the retreating Bury forces and kill them before they can get back to Moscow anyway.
So, faced with Jen’s perfect UK1 in the Pacific, I skip Bury, take China, Take India (since it is basically vacant because of sending forces to the islands), destroy the UK ships that are all isloated and undefended, and still slam Pearl with a draw-back AC placement.
The ONLY thing I might do differently is skip the J1 IC and go 3 TRN and land units so that i can re-take those islands on J2… AND take control of any IC’s that UK builds (but cannot defend) on UK2.
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You have all the information on allied fleet positions.
No, I did not.
Sometimes I make a mistake and ask for information that was already provided, but not in this case. If you review earlier posts, you will note that the Allied fleet positions were NOT NOTED. The only thing I had to work with was
"I been thinking, if you can take Borneo and New Guinea then put an IC in India you might have a real threat to Japan. "
which doesn’t give any but extremely vague guidelines. Did the UK use a fighter to attack an island, or was it used to strafe the Jap sub at Solomons? (That is entirely open to interpretation, and I have seen both variations played out.) If the UK had used the fighter to attack an island, and the fighter survived, the UK AC would have to be positioned so the fighter could land, so could NOT be used in the attack on the Japanese transport at Kwangtung.
Please do not assume I know what you plan on doing, because I do not.
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1. If the Allies positioned their fleets poorly, Japan navy kills the entire UK navy and air in the Indian Ocean, while Japanese air and ground attack China and Burytia, with extremely high probability of taking both with at least two-four infantry surviving in both. Assuming all allied air is out of position to attack French Indochina, one infantry remains at French Indochina to force Allied attack of at least two infantry or commitment of USSR tank (either quite acceptable). Japan builds three transports west of Japan with Japanese battleship escort to prevent probable UK bomber or US long range aircraft attack. In future rounds, Japan builds one or two transports, a few infantry, and fighters.
What forces do you plan to use to do this? You have to overcome 6 Infantry in Buryatia, 2 Infantry and a Fighter in China. You have 1 Transport, 1 Battleship in range to assist in Buryatia. You have 7 infantry, 2 fighters on the mainland, of which only 2 of those infantry can actually reach Buryatia.
Actual Numbers:
Japan can attack with 3 Infantry, 1 Armor, 4 Fighters, 1 Battleship and 1 Bomber vs 6 Infantry on Buryatia. 1 Infantry of the stack surviving, plus the rest of the equipment.
That leaves 5 Infantry, 2 Fighters that can reach China. 3 Infantry, 2 Fighters survive, on average.
That leaves no airpower nor any battleships to attack Pearl. Resulting in a MASSIVE gain for the Allies be saving 2 fighters, 1 aircraft carrier and 1 submarine there. (Unless you plan to attack it with 1 destroyer only, the only other naval vessel in range not being used elsewhere needs to move to SZ 60 to retrieve a fighter, presumably???)
So what’s the situation? You have wasted 100% of your attack resources in plundering 3 IPCs in land value you normally would have gotten anyway but you are down 5 IPCs to England, the American fleet is unscathed, the British fleet is in position to sting more islands on UK2 with forces they never expected to have around anyway, and if they loose, so what?
There are other possibilities depending on the Allied move.
2. Take India immediately.
3. Do Pearl Harbor, plus three transports and battleship EAST of Japan at end of unit placement, going for immediate defense of Asia. USSR has to pull out of Burytia on USSR 2, or commit tanks and/or fighters to counterattack Japan’s forces which will give Germany a far easier time in the west.
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It is almost certain that Japan can do AT LEAST one of these. The first option is attack-oriented, the second is stall-oriented, the third is defense-oriented.
The last two make more sense. It doesn’t over extend you. But I’d actually say sink the british fleet. As I said, if you leave those transports alone, what’s to stop England from trying for Philippines, East Indies and/or Okinawa? Or even taking all those units and taking India and or FIC back?
Let me clarify.
I did mention that the first option was ATTACK oriented. The UK and US can run around in the Pacific, but it takes them a while to build up enough to really chase off the Japanese fleet, and the game plan is that by the time that happens, Moscow falls. It is not a matter of overextension. The fact is, if the Allies spent 15 IPC on an IC in India, and lost eight infantry and a fighter first turn, as well as the UK Pacific fleet, the Allied forces in Asia and Africa are going to be in poor position. To be clear, at that point Japan is not worried about DEFENDING the Japanese islands. Japan is thinking about exploiting (ATTACKING) the overextended ground unit placement in Asia to make a quick and powerful attack on Moscow, supported by the Germans. Given the right Allied placement (or wrong, depending on your viewpoint), Japan and Germany combined can almost CERTAINLY take Moscow in such a game.
As for the other two making sense - they ALL make sense, given the situation. But again, if I don’t know what is going on in the game, I can hardly be expected to give solid advice, can I?
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Paint:
You knew that 1 transport would be at New Guinea because it had to move there to invade.
You knew that 1 transport would be at Borneo because it had to move there to invade.
I also stated that the SZ 59 transport was attacked by an Aircraft Carrier and Destroyer, so you knew they would be there.
Also stated was that Solomons was attacked with a fighter and a submarine (fighter lands on US Carrier) so you knew where that was.
So yes, I submit you knew the placement of all naval forces already. Since America’s is static and has no chance to move. However, it might have taken some deductive reasoning because I did not specifically state the actual location of each ship because I expected responders to figure it out based on the information provided.
Switch:
Yea, India is undefended and you can take out China. But what forces would you send to each attacked sea zone to clear them? I’m not saying Japan cannot do it, but I suspect it cannot be done effectively without heavy potential losses to Japan and you’re going to be down 5 IPCs for at least 2 rounds because you just don’t have the troops available to retake those islands.
Also, what risk do you have after your battles to sustain more casualties by American counter attacks?
(These are honest questions, I want to find holes in my strategy!)
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I am not going to post full blown counters here.
I would rather “shock and awe” someone trying this against me :-)
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Paint:
You knew that 1 transport would be at New Guinea because it had to move there to invade.
You knew that 1 transport would be at Borneo because it had to move there to invade.
I also stated that the SZ 59 transport was attacked by an Aircraft Carrier and Destroyer, so you knew they would be there.
Also stated was that Solomons was attacked with a fighter and a submarine (fighter lands on US Carrier) so you knew where that was.
So yes, I submit you knew the placement of all naval forces already. Since America’s is static and has no chance to move. However, it might have taken some deductive reasoning because I did not specifically state the actual location of each ship because I expected responders to figure it out based on the information provided.
Sorry, whether you submit it or not, I had no idea. I STILL don’t know where that UK bomber is supposed to have ended up, and that is crucial to the Japanese response.
Deductive reasoning? You initially posted a somewhat vague picture of what the Allied navy and air force looked like; I responded with some scenarios stating that a detailed analysis was not really possible without a better picture (well, I can’t give one anyways, see below). Your LATER post mentioned that the Hawaii fleet had two fighters and a carrier; I responded asking about the UK fighter position in relation to the first post - even though you’d posted a reply mentioning two fighters, sub, and a carrier at Pearl, there was NO WAY to tell that from your INITIAL post, or would you debate that?
If I ask a question of someone, I am going to provide all the information I can to help that person better help me. It is POSSIBLE that I could draw up six or seven major contingency plans based on different Allied responses given the unfortunately limited information (STILL) available, but why would I go to the trouble of writing a lengthy but vague article for four hours because someone couldn’t be troubled to take fifteen minutes to post the minutae of the anticipated board position? I just don’t see myself taking the trouble.
(edit) I really DO NOT know the board position, and I really DO NOT think that I can make any kind of informative post without more information. I’ve wasted time like that before; I don’t like wasting time. EVEN for hawt models. Lol srsly? Ya rly! (/edit)
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@ncscswitch:
I am not going to post full blown counters here.
I would rather “shock and awe” someone trying this against me :-)
I always tell my opponents exactly what I’m thinking of doing (including branch possibilities and contingency plans) if they ask. I even volunteer information if I think I have the advantage.
(exception: tournaments and ladder games, but I will go into anything at length after the game is over)
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Here, since there are so many questions, this is what the board looks like on Japan 1:
***** Country: 1 *****
*** West Russia (Wru)
1 Arm
7 Inf
1 Art*** Caucasus (Cau)
1 IC
1 AA
1 Art
2 Ftr
3 Inf*** Russia (Mos)
1 IC
1 AA
2 Inf
1 Arm*** Yakut S.S.R. (Yak)
2 Inf*** Buryatia S.S.R. (Bry)
6 Inf*** Sinkiang (Sin)
4 Inf*** Greanland Seazone (GRN/Z2)
1 Sub***** Country: 2 *****
*** Western Europe (Weu)
1 AA
7 Inf
2 Arm
2 Ftr*** Southern Europe (Seu)
1 AA
1 IC
1 Inf*** Germany (Ger)
1 IC
1 AA
8 Inf*** Balkans (Blk)
1 Art
2 Inf
2 Arm*** Eastern Europe (Eeu)
3 Arm
2 Inf*** Karelia S.S.R. (Len)
1 Flag
1 Inf*** Ukraine S.S.R. (Ukr)
1 Inf*** Belorussia (Bel)
2 Inf*** Anglo Egypt (Egy)
1 Arm
1 Flag
2 Inf*** Libya (Lib)
1 Ftr
1 Bmb*** Algeria (Alg)
1 Inf
1 Art*** Baltic Seazone (BAL/Z5)
1 AC
2 Ftr
1 Trn
2 Sub
1 Des*** East Mediterian Seazone (EMD/Z15)
1 Trn
1 BB***** Country: 3 *****
*** Eastern Canada (Eca)
1 Arm
1 Inf*** United Kingdom (Gbr)
2 Inf
1 Art
1 Arm
1 IC
1 AA
5 Ftr
1 Bmb*** Persia (Per)
1 AA
3 Inf*** Union of South Africa (Saf)
1 Inf*** Australia (Aus)
1 Inf*** New Zealand (Nze)
1 Inf*** New Guinea (Ngu)
1 Flag
2 Inf*** Borneo (Bor)
2 Inf
1 Flag*** Hudson Bay Seazone (LAB/Z1)
1 Trn*** Greanland Seazone (GRN/Z2)
1 BB
1 Trn*** Borneo Seazon (BOR/Z48)
1 Trn*** Kwangtung Seazone (ECH/Z59)
1 Des
1 AC*** Hawaiian Seazone (EPO/Z52)
1 Ftr*** New Guinea Seazone (MEL/Z47)
1 Trn*** Solomon Islands Seazone (SOS/Z45)
1 Sub***** Country: 4 *****
*** Manchuria (Man)
1 Ftr
2 Inf*** Kwangtung (Kwa)
3 Inf*** French Indochina (Fic)
1 Ftr
2 Inf*** Solomon Islands (Sol)
1 Inf*** East Indies (Sum)
2 Inf*** Philippine Islands (Phi)
2 Inf*** Caroline Islands (Car)
1 Inf*** Okinawa (Oki)
1 Inf*** Wake Island (Wak)
1 Inf*** Japan (Jpn)
1 AA
1 IC
4 Inf
1 Art
1 Arm
1 Ftr
1 Bmb*** East Indies Seazone (JAV/Z37)
1 BB
2 Ftr
1 AC*** East Japan Seazone (EJS/Z60)
1 Trn
1 BB*** Carlonine Islands Seazone (MIC/Z50)
1 Ftr
1 Des
1 AC***** Country: 5 *****
*** Eastern United States (Eus)
1 IC
1 Art
1 Ftr
1 Arm
2 Inf
1 AA
1 Bmb*** China (Chi)
1 Ftr
2 Inf*** Sinkiang (Sin)
2 Inf*** Midway Island (Mid)
1 Inf*** Hawaiian Islands (Haw)
2 Inf
1 Ftr*** Alaska (Ala)
1 Inf*** Western United States (Wus)
1 AA
1 IC
1 Ftr
2 Inf*** Central United States (Cus)
2 Inf*** Eastern US Seazone (ECO/Z10)
1 Des
2 Trn*** West Panama Seazone (GLP/Z20)
1 Des*** Western US Seazone (WCO/Z55)
1 Trn
1 BB*** Hawaiian Seazone (EPO/Z52)
1 Ftr
1 AC
1 Sub***** Japan: 31 IPC *****
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Well, you have to make him choose. :) You can do a lot of real, significant and important damage to Japan with the allies on round 1. And you can set up a bigger threat to Japan on Round 2. By Japan Round 3 you could be looking at a decimated fleet 9 times over (decimation is the reducing by 10% so that would be 90%), no mainland holdings, and some of their islands already owned by the allies.
And you don’t even need to siphon troops from Russia to do it. Just the 10 already on that front could be used to see this leaving the rest for battleing Germany. Especially good if Germany buys her cute little aircraft carrier draining her income to the level of Russia’s on R1.
Jenn,
If you decimate something nine times over, there will be
1) 0.9 * 100 = 90
2) 0.9 * 90 = 81
3) 0.9 * 81 = 72.9
4) 0.9 * 72.9 = 65.61
5) 0.9 * 65.61 = 59.049
6) 0.9 * 59.049 = 53.1441
7) 0.9 * 53.1441 = 47.82969
8) 0.9 * 47.82969 = 43.046721
9) 0.9 * 43.046721 = 38.7420489I’ll happily take my 38.7 men up against your 10.
Even if we always round down, I’ll still take my 36 men up against your 10.
With rounding down, you would have to decimate 19 times to reduce 100 to less than 10.
Without rounding down, it would 22 decimations to get to less than 10 left.
Try 100 * (0.9)^9 for the equation you specified.
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the advantage of an aussie complex is that japan can’t really use it against you after they capture it and it could divert japan’s resources away from the mainland temporarily
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Whats the best way as Japan to counter the Australian complex?
Would it be to send some attack ships (subs like I usually build in a KJF and a destroyer for air protection) down and destroy any transports before they can fill with land units?
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Whats the best way as Japan to counter the Australian complex?
Would it be to send some attack ships (subs like I usually build in a KJF and a destroyer for air protection) down and destroy any transports before they can fill with land units?
If you are facing a big meaty guy with body armor and a big stick, you do not go out and get a big stick, and try to fight the big meaty guy. That is how you get hurt.
You either call the cops, or try to run him over with a hamster stampede, or something like that.
I am so profound, I forgot what I was going to say.
OR DID I?!!1!
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So the best way to counter the Australia IC is to b**** out?
Gotcha.
No really though, I understand. Thats kind of a good strategy for any nation though, just a bit hard to execute because Japan is spread out through islands.
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So the best way to counter the Australia IC is to b**** out?
Gotcha.
No really though, I understand. Thats kind of a good strategy for any nation though, just a bit hard to execute because Japan is spread out through islands.
Mm hm.
Australia is an awesome naval base that gives the Allies a great deal of freedom in the Pacific. But either US or the UK must come to the fight with some naval units. While they build naval units, Japan and Germany press the attack on Russia.
Japan’s position degrades very quickly after Australia gets going, but it is almost impossible for the Allies to capture Japan itself. Far before Japan is in any real danger (with a stack of infantry and fighters on it), Germany and Japan should be able to make Russia fall. From that point, it’s really Japan and Germany vs. UK and US. In a 9 VC game, that means that Germany and Japan together have a deathgrip on 8 VCs (all in Europe and mainland Asia, probably including India, Karelia, and Moscow), but have probably lost the Phillipine Islands.
Since Japan cannot be broken, and Germany cannot be broken, the victory should go to the Axis, with a navy and air force fueled by Russian IPCs, and a positional advantage that allows Germany to threaten London itself as well as threatening Africa and Brazil with only minimal IPCs invested.
Of course, the Allies are not locked into defending Australia, but any IPCs spent there are IPCs not used elsewhere in those important early turns.
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