Global 1940 Wittman and Private Panic vs Credulous and Elrood

[Private-Panic]

I disagree with Witt. I do not believe all our problems are caused by the EU. Immigration will continue to be a significant issue if we leave and we will have lost the help of our EU partners in trying to solve it.

While the dream of a UK making its ever more successful way in the world on its own is an attractive one, the short term economic risks are not a dream, but real.

Having yesterday had breakfast with 4 Germans I share their belief in the EU’s contribution to international peace.

And I disagree with regularkid’s promotion of national trade policies. Free trade raises living standards. The challenge is to manage the pain of change as industries specialise on areas of national advantage.

[Elrood]

“Brainiac” Trump congratulates and also:

ttps://mobile.twitter.com/dpa/status/746361817715380225
It shows that:
Essentially the young and strongly tax paying got schooled by grumpy old men who just know it better.

That what happens when societies overage I guess.

I curious if Northern Ireland, Scotland and London!! will leave UK now?!  :mrgreen:

@regularkid: stick to modifying boardgames, eh?

[Credulous]

Pleased to see Stockport (my area) voted to stay. Bonkers decision to leave I fear……

[Elrood]

Screwed up the link…  :-(

Here:
https://mobile.twitter.com/dpa/status/746361817715380225/photo/1

[Witt]

Makes sense.

[Elrood]

Hi Guys.

back at home. Everyone ready?

[Private-Panic]

Hey Seb. Mark and I are ready to wipe the floor with the two of you! Or was it the other way around?

[Elrood]

@PP: instead of answering you privately I choose to write here instead… is a “Forum” after all… our own “speakers corner” if you will.  :-)

I hope you dont regard it as hijacking the thread, but I like to give my thoughts on that important topic.

Donald is a moron. (he said Europe breaks apart due to immigration stress)

There are about 740 million people in Europe. About 80 million are in Germany.

Say there are 2 million refugees coming to Germany. That’s like one Muslim Syrian child sitting in a crowded school class full of 40 Hans and Evas.
Will that mean the end of the school system? I think not.

What all these politicians have in common… Trump in US, Farage or Johnson in UK, Kaczinski in Poland and (you probably never heard of them) similar colored politicians like Petry or Gauland in Germany…
They take small facts and blow them up, or bend them to create primal emotions in people… like fear of identity and loss of security… to promote their agenda.
if you look at it from a scientific angle you see most what they say is simply not true

E.g. the 350 million pounds per week going to EU. If you take the “brit discount” (thanks to Margaret “I want my money back” Thatcher and money which flows back through funding of UK business) it goes down to 110 million per week.

Is still a large sum, but investing money elsewhere protects UK interests as well. E.g. if Europe funds eastern / southern Europe through this, it prevents more immigration from these parts and creates jobs for brits who want to work outside UK as well. (I think currently about 1,2 million brits work and live outside UK)

Germany pays MUCH more, and I am happy for it. we are wealthy here… damn… we all are… Europe is the best continent when it comes to that. We live longer, don’t suffer hunger, have free time… all indicators we have point to that… again facts show that… but emotions in some grumpy old men go another way.

Is EU bureaucratic? Sure it is. And its slow and 27 members can hardly agree on anything. But it made us prosper and free to move where we want. of course there could be a better system. But criticizing what we have… and speak of “them above” or “them abroad” as enemies is soooo much simpler than offering changes or a better way.

The economic wheel is turning slow but steady and it points toward the end of nations (no joke), since economy doesn’t care for that. A job has to find the best possible person to do it. it doesn’t matter where its from.

Sure… people and political powers are clinging to it and try to stop it. But it cannot be stopped. Only if we choose to nuke us back to the stone age. (is still a possible option looking at the world map and current affairs)

That being said I sincerely hope that EU is not only looking for fault in the British referendum, but also if EU can be / must be changed. Not a revolution, but a reformation may be.

EU was created after WW2 with a promise of peace. Which was a strong promise and which was also upheld!
May be the promise must be changed to something more fitting into the current world … if it can be.

[Private-Panic]

@Elrood:

Say there are 2 million refugees coming to Germany. That’s like one Muslim Syrian child sitting in a crowded school class full of 40 Hans and Evas. Will that mean the end of the school system? I think not.

True. But it is an average. In some areas the migrants far outnumber indigenous and there schools are stretched by language and other difficulties.

@Elrood:

What all these politicians have in common…… They take small facts and blow them up, or bend them to create primal emotions in people… like fear of identity and loss of security… to promote their agenda.
if you look at it from a scientific angle you see most what they say is simply not true

Again true. But I don’t live in one of the areas dominated by migrants, where identity is most threatened. Nor is my ability to find work impacted by migrants who are willing to work harder for less. In the UK a significant proportion of our society feel the cost of globalisation rather than the benefits. They tend to be poorer, less well educated and find it harder to make their way in the world. The elitist political class have ignored them for far too long.

@Elrood:

EU was created after WW2 with a promise of peace. Which was a strong promise and which was also upheld!

Of course the UK is one of only a few EU members who have not been victim of invasion by a fellow member in recent history. The peace benefit is real to us, but not to the same extent and so easier to delegate to secondary importance.

Lastly, the brexit campaign mixed up a bunch of different aspirations and welded them together into an incoherent “NO” vote. Brexit did not espouse policies, since there is no brexit party to form a government, but rather possibilities in the event of exit, which the government of the day may or may not decide to seize. Boris Johnson himself is in favour of remaining in the single market with free movement of people. He sees the EU as is as a brake on economic success, rather than an enabler. There is a lot of truth in that. My preferred course would have been to work to change the EU from within. Now we are out we need to focus on the benefits held up by the brexit dream and do our best to grasp them.

Of course, there is still the possibility that brexit may not happen. For example the Scottish parliament will need to ratify the vote of the UK parliament. Or the EU may yet offer a package that lures us down a different path.

[Elrood]

Thanks for your view on it.

I cannot really judge what you said about specific groups not benefiting from EU. I mean… is not like I am working on EU money or so. I know some people do and also use the freedom to work everywhere extensively.

Times are changing… ever faster and faster… we need to adept to it or will be left behind. I don’t know if that can be prevented by politics though.

It seems to me like some rule of market… which doesn’t care for any human that cannot deal with it (strictly economic speaking). Either you find your place in that world or you have a problem. For sure free market capitalism has no recipe against that, neither does the Chinese “Steered capitalism” (I hope I am using the right words here) … they have similar issues, that rural and urban citizens are drifting apart. And they “burned” millions of their human work forces for cheap manual labour in their factories already.

Is there a system to prevent that? I don’t know. What could an independent state do what EU could not? Go back to what? Industrial age … steam engines and all? Or further back to farmers and fishermen?

People where never equal. Always a few lived happily in castles and palaces why most of us had make a harder living. But we never had it better and easier than ANY other generation before.

At least in these days you have more influence on your future… if you are hard working and never stop learning you have a much better chance to make a fortune than 100 years back when you were born as a servants son.

[Private-Panic]

I certainly agree, Seb, that change is inevitable. The free-marketeers within the brexit campaign see the EU as a barrier to changes that we need to adapt to rather than attempt in vain to deny. These will be the majority of the political class that campaigned against the EU.

Of course other elements of the brexit campaign object to the changes that membership of the EU foists upon us, such as migration. I believe these to be the majority of those that actually voted for brexit.

Within that mis-match will lie much frustration as we attempt to find a way forward.

I think our fundamental issue is that we have a significant and growing underclass with insufficient ability or motivation to succeed. We that “are hard working and never stop learning” leave that underclass ever further behind. Although successive governments have provided greater equality of opportunity through education and equal rights, these do not touch the true life chances of those unlucky enough to be born into dysfunctional families in slum housing estates, often encircled by gangs, violence, drugs and, worst of all perhaps, low aspirations.

Unless we find solutions to these intractable problems our social and political systems will be ever more challenged.

But then again, the US has these problems to an even greater degree, with an even greater divide between rich and poor, and yet manages to keep a lid on the pressure-cooker. Perhaps the American Dream still wields sufficient power to keep the disadvantaged hoping for a better future?

[Elrood]

@Private:

But then again, the US has these problems to an even greater degree, with an even greater divide between rich and poor, and yet manages to keep a lid on the pressure-cooker. Perhaps the American Dream still wields sufficient power to keep the disadvantaged hoping for a better future?

Thats an interesting point. I never looked at it this way.

Before I heard in some comment that US population doesnt want to tax the “upper class” higher, because:
a) many middle class believe (wrongfully) they belong to that group
b) the american dream makes it possible (but very unlikely though) you belong to the upper class some day

Is somehow present in US sub-conscience.

At least that’s what was said in that comment/report. Dont know if its true, but it would also explain your statement above. Hmm

[Private-Panic]

I think Mark & Leo have dozed off while we solve the problems of the world!

Perhaps it is time to wake them up with a game?

[Elrood]

May be you are right!  :lol:

[Elrood]

Test summary from TripleA, engine version: 1.8.0.9, time: 13:16:36

[Elrood]

TripleA Move Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9

Game History

Round: 1

Purchase Units - Germans
            Germans buy 1 carrier, 1 destroyer and 1 submarine; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Germans
            1 fighter moved from Norway to 111 Sea Zone
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Germany to 111 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from Holland Belgium to 109 Sea Zone
            2 fighters moved from Western Germany to 109 Sea Zone
            3 tactical_bombers moved from Western Germany to 109 Sea Zone
            1 submarine moved from 117 Sea Zone to 106 Sea Zone
            1 submarine moved from 124 Sea Zone to 111 Sea Zone
            1 submarine moved from 103 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone
            1 submarine moved from 108 Sea Zone to 106 Sea Zone
            1 submarine moved from 118 Sea Zone to 109 Sea Zone
            1 battleship moved from 113 Sea Zone to 111 Sea Zone
            2 bombers moved from Germany to 111 Sea Zone
            1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Holland Belgium to Normandy Bordeaux
            1 infantry moved from Holland Belgium to Normandy Bordeaux
            3 armour, 1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Holland Belgium to France
            1 artillery, 3 infantry and 4 mech_infantrys moved from Western Germany to France
            3 armour moved from Greater Southern Germany to France
            2 artilleries and 6 infantry moved from Greater Southern Germany to Yugoslavia
            1 infantry moved from Slovakia Hungary to Yugoslavia
            1 infantry moved from Romania to Yugoslavia
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Poland to Yugoslavia
            1 fighter moved from Slovakia Hungary to Yugoslavia

triplea_36475_Ger1.tsvg

[Elrood]

Scramble?

[Witt]

Afternoon, my erudite and elitist loving, yet socialist, friends.
I believe I said Cred should be the oppressed Soviets, so will look at the scramble now.
I am glad you have awoken from your political reverie and got this started.

[Witt]

You, dirty, sneaky German: going after my Destroyers! No, thank you.

[Private-Panic]

witt - you have lost the plot!

I believe the sides are as follows:

El Rude - G & I
witt - J
Cred - R, UK, F
PP - US, China, ANZAC

So unless you want to change things we should ask Mark a line to look at the scramble?