France and Canada as one Power, two Economies.

Narvik

Both Frenchmen and Canadian speaks……French. And they both know how to make love in a canoe. Come to think about it, maybe even South America can join the French player ?

Flashman

Can’t believe anyone is willing to play as only France. A&A should have a maximum of only 4 players ever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Saint_Pierre_and_Miquelon#World_War_II

General Veers

Would Germany still be able to loot the French treasury though? I guess you could have it so Germany still gets the customary 19 IPC and this new power only collects from its Canadian territories for a turn but then collect colonial French income starting in turn 2.

Dafyd

There was discussion on the board last week about Free French and Vichy French forces and a government in exile still collecting income from the colonies. I’m not sure that all of Canada should become France-West but I could see Quebec becoming a capitol in exile sight. The remainder of Canada would continue as part of the Commonwealth. A minor French IC could be built there and Free France could still build there. It would be a very small income to almost nill but it would keep the French player some what involved. I agree with Flashman though, no one should be relegated to play France alone. Let the Soviet or UK player manage them.

Argothair

I like the idea of Quebec serving as the French capital-in-exile very much! It’s not strictly historical; Quebec thought of itself much more as part of Canada than as part of France at the time, but it’s not crazy, either. It lets the Germans loot the French treasury for balance, and then lets the French continue to have an impact on the game. I might even start Quebec with a minor industrial complex so that the French can afford to build some transports and get them back to Europe or Africa before the game is decided.

I also like the idea in another thread to let France take one turn before Germany smacks it down – gives you more options for what to do with the French starting units and starting purchasing power other than just “hand it to the Nazis untouched.”

Just piggybacking off of your idea, what do you think of the following play order and player division?

Player 1: Italy, Axis Minors (Finland, Hungary, Romania)
Player 2: Russia, France (including Quebec)
Player 3: Germany
Player 4: UK Europe, UK Pacific, ANZAC
Player 5: Japan
Player 6: USA, China

The “Axis Minors” player would be a new Axis nation carved out of Finland, Slovakia-Hungary, and Romania. Finland would start the game as an active Axis territory (with its starting infantry fully mobilized) rather than as a pro-Axis neutral. The Axis Minors might get a national objective that gives them +5 IPC / turn if they are at war with Russia and the Axis Minors have no troops in Karelia or Novgorod (symbolizing the Finns’ zeal to defend their homeland and their reluctance to wage an aggressive war against Russia). The capital of the Axis Minors would be Helsinki (Finland), and the capitol-in-exile would be Prague (Slovakia-Hungary).

The Axis Minor nation gives Italy something to do for the rest of the game other than just send two infantry to the eastern front if the UK crushes Italy on turns 1-2.

CWO Marc

@Dafyd:

There was discussion on the board last week about Free French and Vichy French forces and a government in exile still collecting income from the colonies.ï¿½ Â I’m not sure that all of Canada should become France-West but I could see Quebec becoming a capitol in exile sight.ï¿½ Â The remainder of Canada would continue as part of the Commonwealth.ï¿½

I could – in principle – imagine the French government setting up a wartime government-in-exile in Quebec, though frankly London would make more sense for lots of reasons. London hosted lots of governments-in-exile during WWII, and some parts of south-east England are conveniently just a few dozen (rather than thousands of ) miles away from France. I can’t imagine, however, a case in which such an arrangement would cause Quebec (where I happen to live) to switch from being a Canadian province to being some kind of French colonial department. Just because French is the predominant language of Quebec doesn’t mean that Quebec sees itself as a part of France (believe me, it doesn’t), and just because some Quebecers would like Quebec to leave Canada to form a sovereign country doesn’t meant they want to become an overseas territory of France. After all, the fact that the Belgian Congo is administered from London in Global 1940 doesn’t mean that England has become a part of Belgium while Scotland continues to be part of the Commonwealth.

Argothair

CWO_Marc, as you can probably guess, I don’t intend any disrespect for your province or its history. I just think that on a superficial level, Quebec is an attractive choice for a French capital-in-exile because it’s the only industrialized, Francophone region that wasn’t within immediate reach of the Nazis during 1940.

Putting the capital-in-exile in London, as you and Black_Elk have suggested, reduces the importance of the Free French to the point where they’re hardly worth modeling – filling London with about 5 IPC / turn of blue French pieces that can’t join in an attack with the khaki pieces or travel efficiently on khaki boats is just a waste of everybody’s time – if you’re going to have London administer the French colonies anyway, then it makes more sense to just give the British direct control of French Africa like the designers did for Classic and Revised and 1942 2nd Edition.

For players who prefer historical accuracy to the consistency/simplicity of the rules, we could set the French capital-in-exile in the West Indies, which would shift from American control to French control, and which would start with a minor industrial complex even though it’s only got a territory value of 1 IPC.

CWO Marc

No offense taken. I wasn’t actually objecting to the concept of Quebec being used as the seat of a government-in-exile for France, I was just saying that this shouldn’t result in Quebec turning into a territory controlled by France. One concept shouldn’t require the other concept, since we’re talking about house rules that, by definition, deviate from what’s strictly permitted under the OOB rules. After all, the earlier suggestion of putting France’s government-in-exile in London wasn’t based on any assumption that the British territory containing London would turn into a French-controlled territory (the opening of the game being set in 1940, not in 1066).

Flashman

@Argothair:

Just piggybacking off of your idea, what do you think of the following play order and player division?

Player 1: Italy, Axis Minors (Finland, Hungary, Romania)
Player 2: Russia, France (including Quebec)
Player 3: Germany
Player 4: UK Europe, UK Pacific, ANZAC
Player 5: Japan
Player 6: USA, China

The “Axis Minors” player would be a new Axis nation carved out of Finland, Slovakia-Hungary, and Romania. Finland would start the game as an active Axis territory (with its starting infantry fully mobilized) rather than as a pro-Axis neutral. The Axis Minors might get a national objective that gives them +5 IPC / turn if they are at war with Russia and the Axis Minors have no troops in Karelia or Novgorod (symbolizing the Finns’ zeal to defend their homeland and their reluctance to wage an aggressive war against Russia). The capital of the Axis Minors would be Helsinki (Finland), and the capitol-in-exile would be Prague (Slovakia-Hungary).

The Axis Minor nation gives Italy something to do for the rest of the game other than just send two infantry to the eastern front if the UK crushes Italy on turns 1-2.

Should be:

1. European Axis
2. USSR/Chinese Communists
3. Japan
4. Western Allies/Chinese Nationalists

Separate economies, but all nations in each block move and fight simultaneously.

You can still have separate UK/USA or G/I players, but they take their turns together.

Depending on timing, blocks don’t necessarily start in two Alliances.

Certain events must occur before USA is considered part of the Western Allies.

Alliances between any 2 blocks are informal and they cannot share tt. For example Germany and USSR might be considered Allies until June 1941; they might both find themselves at war with the West or Japan.

GODLEADER

Quebec the seat of a gouvernement of France ha ha ha, is just rediculous. I am for Quebec and historicly is just a bad idea. If you have the dream of play France longer change the start game in 1939… not a weird idea… Quebec in 1940 is British :( not a french colonie…

crusaderiv

yup…not a good idea and not accurate at all…

baron Münchhausen

Agree.
But it is a shame that many French TTys bring no money until PARIS is liberated.
Quite boring.
Any idea to keep France really alive as minor Power?

crusaderiv

Any idea to keep France really alive as minor Power?

Push back the german…!!!

baron Münchhausen

@crusaderiv:

Any idea to keep France really alive as minor Power?

Push back the german…!!!

Once it is done, the game is nearly over…
And France was waiting for 6 to 9 turns…

Jesse144

@narvik

I like the idea overall, and the purpose. Unfortunately, the historicity doesn’t seem to agree with a conversion of Canada to French control–or even of Quebec. There should be no subjugation of any British or Canadian entity to the Free French Government in Exile. But I’m very interested in Ottawa as a host capital for FF GiE.

So, an adaptation of your idea could be to allow France to retain their own income based on their original territories still under French control, or those originals which are liberated, and enemy territories which Free French forces later take control over while FF is still a GiE.

NEVER under any circumstances would British-controlled (including Quebec) territories be subject to French control or siphoning of IPCs.

FF units may be purchased and placed in the minor industrial complex already located in Quebec. FF mobilization would, however, reduce the UK mobilization at that factory for that turn. France may also place facilities (air/naval bases) in territories from which they are collecting income, as well as Quebec.

If and when Paris is liberated, all Free French forces (except infantry and transports) and facilities presently stationed in Quebec and adjacent sea zones immediately become the possession of the UK (change colors to UK).

… a similar approach could be used for UK exiling to Ottawa or elsewhere.

Grasshopper has some interesting GiE posts as well.

General 6 Stars

Can you post these YG ideas ?

Jesse144

@gen-manstein

here ya go…

Young Grasshopper
Young Grasshopper SPONSOR Nov 24, 2011, 12:33 PM
ANNOUNCEMENT

United Kingdom Political Situation

“Government in Exile” - (Delta+1 final version)

Upon the first time London is captured by an Axis power:

The British government must exile to Ottawa, Canada.
All British IPCs (Europe) must be given to the axis power that now controls London.
The United States and Soviet Union must immediately declare war on all axis powers (if not already), and become allies with the United kingdom.

During exile:

The UK may collect income from all territories (Europe) that are still under British control.
The UK may only mobilize new units from ICs in Canada.

After liberation:

The UK government may return to London, and regain all privileges of their previous sovereignty, or choose to stay in Canada until London stabilizes (decision must be made at the end of the UK turn).
If London falls a second time while the government is there, they may not exile again, and all income, purchasing, and placement rights are lost until another successful liberation has been achieved.

Issues before Delta+2:

Whether or not the UK in exile should continue to collect income from all territories remaining in British control, or just territories from Canada.**

PS, I need to correct my previous post to clarify that Ottawa, Ontario would be the British location for GiE, while Montreal, Quebec would be the Free French (FF) GiE location.

France and Canada as one Power, two Economies.

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