It seems the ‘standard’ German opening is 1 cv placed in SZ5, and 8 inf. Why should it be placed in SZ5? It’s always shot up in a turn or two, and players will often evacuate their fighters… it seems to be a wasted 16 IPCs, 36 if you include fighters.
Instead, why not place the cv in SZ14, perhaps coupled with an additional transport? It will help when taking caucasus, and will likely allow Germany to hold onto Africa for a while longer…
The point of the Carrier is to secure E. Europe and Germany from Amphibious Assualts for a few rounds.
If you’re building fleet in S. Europe, why build a carrier at all?? Just get 2 transports and start piling into Africa faster then a 3 year old eats a hershey bar.
The point of the Carrier is to secure E. Europe and Germany from Amphibious Assualts for a few rounds.
If you’re building fleet in S. Europe, why build a carrier at all?? Just get 2 transports and start piling into Africa faster then a 3 year old eats a hershey bar.
First, I’ve seen adults eat a Hershey bar just as quickly as a three year old :-)
Secure Eastern Europe from amphibious assults? The forces that are already there will deter a landing for a turn or two… beyond that, the IPCs spent on the carrier and lost through the fighters could be used just as effectively to guard your coast-line. The carrier would provide protection against America’s fleet, meaning your transports might last a while.
Carrier based FIGs can still be used on attack in Ukraine, Archangel, Belorussia, and return to the AC. FIG exchange increases that range to include Moscow and Caucuses.
It also makes UK and US play more honest with their TRNs. They have to guard them as far away as SZ2, SZ8, SZ12, sicne they are in range of Baltic FIGs with AC movement for recovery. And it creates an increased Sea Lion threat that UK has to at least consider. And lastly, any attempt to destroy the fleet is going to result in the loss of significant Allied units, usually TRNs, and that means trading an average of 4-5 Allied TRNs to kill the Baltic Fleet (32-40 IPC of Allied Ships vs. 16 spent by Germany) instead of the fleet being sunk for a cost of $10 of UK FIGs on UK1.
The Last point you just mentioned seems to me the “only” thing worthwhile with the AC in the baltic.
beyond that I agree its very useless. you can exchange land-based Fgts just as easily with them based on EE/WE
me as the allies prefer the Africa route first to ensure Med fleet is pushed out or destroyed then by turn 3-4 with all the fgts piled up on the UK, baltic fleet is destroyed. so the strats I ussually tend to do for the allies make it very useless for the AC in the baltic… seeying how I don’t even go near the area for 3-5 turns.
The difference with WE placed AF…
WE placed AF attacking Ukraine means they cannot return to defend WE. And tehy cannot reach Caucuses at all.
AF on an AC in SZ5 can reach WE, Ukraine and return to AC to secure BOTh Germany and Eastern. And they can reach Caucuses and still land in EE.
@ncscswitch:
(32-40 IPC of Allied Ships vs. 16 spent by Germany)
Mathematically, that means Germany gains a mere 4 IPCs, or even loses them, as the cv plus the two figs required to man it are worth 36 IPCs. An increased presence in the Mediteranian, coupled with land based figs, will hazard America’s traditional transport path through SZ12. Forcing America to further protect their transports and gaining additional IPCs from Africa seems to be a better deal.
You also need to figure in the value of total security in germany and Eastern created by that fleet early on, as well as the opportunity cost for the UK to sink it. And of course teh flexibility of potential attacks by those FIGs both against USSR and UK prior to their deaths.
Without the AC, Germany loses the entire Baltic Fleet to a UK1 attack, and on average UK only loses a FIG in the process (Germany down $36 of units, UK down $10)
So, spending that $16 on an AC automatically DOUBLES your return against an early Allied air assault.
Land based fgts can be exchanged between WE and EE for the first little while which is what I was trying to tell you.
WE fgts can reach all the territories on the front except WR (I wouldn’t hit Arch with them either) but you can hit Kar, Belo, Ukr with a few WE fts and land them on EE, use the figs already on EE to hit Ukr, Belo or Kar as well and land some on WE to replace the 2-3 fgts used from there.
if an AC isn’t purchased on G1 it doesn’t merely mean your baltic fleet is doomed on turn 1, there is ways around that. (turn 3 I ussually kill the baltic fleet as the allies anyway) so if you can keep the british at bay for the first 1-2 turns and a 3rd, its just as good.
And an AC, even without FIGs based on it, buys yuo to turn 3.
Otherwise, Germany is forced to defend Germany and Eastern against UK TRNs.
And if the US joins in with a North African Dominance strat, Germany is REALLY screwed, because they can’t defend EVERYTHING and still exert any pressure on Russia.
A G1 AC buys you 2 territories of security (at least enough security to make it painful for the Allies, and to give you enough warnign to prepare for a landing)
A carrier in the Mediterranean does not, I think, significantly aid in Africa’s defense. The Allies can simply push masses of infantry east (at least 4-6 a turn); anywhere Germany attacks will be subject to counterattack by massed infantry and air. It’s what I do with the Allies. Of course, a German carrier in the Mediterranean would help protect against Allied attack, but I find that the Allies do not push there until at least a few turns have passed, as the threat of the German air force is quite strong.
I’ve been seriously thinking about buying 10 infantry and a fighter as a standard opening, and switching to Mediterranean transports on G2 to G4. Or perhaps more dangerous, 2-3 tech dice on Rockets.
In that scenario Paint, the Allies mass fleet in SZ6. They force Germany into either allowign the build up, or makign them use FIGs and BOMs to destroy a few TRNs, neutralizing any income gains Germany might have made elsewhere. Meanwhile they can just batter on Western, take Norway, and threaten both Germany and Eastern every single turn… forcing Germany to hold back a lot of force from the Russian front to provide defense against Allied landings.
The AC gives you a couple/3 turns to send troops east unrestricted in order to crack the Russian front before you have to start piling forces in your core territories.
My concerns for the G1 AC buy revolve around what Russia can do and the lack of 16 IPC worth of ground units on round 1 means.
I’m not at all concerned about UK, b/c
1a) The UK should not be worried about Ger or EE on rds 1-3
1b) I think the focus of the UK on rds 1-3 should be Africa, not Europe, so therefore the purchase of the AC is overkill.
2) Good purchases buy the UK make a threat on London impossible
As Germany if I can trade my initial fleet for 2 ftrs and possibly 1 bom, I’ll gladly take that.
And if they wait till rd 2, you got a free use of your tran with no added purchase.
My thinking all comes down to what I think is best for the UK, since I don’t feel UK should even be focusing on Germany/EE the first 2-3 rds, I see no need to try and defend the territories with naval units that can’t serve you on your impending land battles. I think I’d lean towards buying 2 ftrs and simply threaten the Allied ships that way. At least then you can use the ftrs against Russia. 1 ftr costs you 6 less and two only cost you 4 more. Even a bom purchase may prove valuable.
Say you buy 10 inf, 1 ftr (or 2 arm) with Germanay and stack EE on G1 with 7-8 inf, 5 arm.
Then on G2 you can not only beef up WE with an inf or 2 (or arm) as needed but move 8 inf to EE from Ger. Then place another 10 inf on Ger.
How is EE or Ger in trouble on UK2 or 3 when on UK 1 they must buy either a capital ship or air? and on UK 2 they can buy trns, which means you don’t need to worry about EE/Ger till UK 3, but you can have 10 new inf placed on Ger and 15-18 inf on EE. Even then that means they must have landed in Afr and Nor at some pt in rd 1 or 2, which I think could be questionable.
Even on UK 4 they are looking at stacks of 15 (give or take) on Ger and 20+ on EE. But now you can make WE an enticing target as you shift everything towards Ukr/Cauc.
I think it is harder to create these stacks if Russia is pushing back hard in UKr with the threat to hold due to some tank buys and the proximity of Wrus/Cauc to Ukr vs. Berlin/SE to Ukr.
IMO, the G1 AC prevents a landing that shouldn’t be considered in the first place.
Without a Baltic buy…
The Baltic fleet is DEAD on UK1, and UK loses 1 FIG.
UK builds an AC, TRN and 2 INF, conslidates fleet and build in SZ3.
On SZ2, UK can hit Eastern with 1 ARM, 1 ART, 4 INF, 1 FIG, 1 BOM, and BB shot. Puts a bit of a kink in Germany’s attack on Russia. 21 attack points, 3-4 German units dead in the immediate onslaught; half of your “extra” units from the G1 buy.
Or they hit Western with the same force. and they have to fear Germany’s counter far less, because Germany has to lose AF to attack that fleet, and has no sneak shots, no naval fodder. With that fleet (3 TRN, 1 BB, 1 AC, 1 FIG), even a TOTAL strike by the Luftwaffe only has a 43% chance of success. And even if they win… there are NO GERMAN PLANES for Russia to deal with.
Or you ignore the fleet, and UK hits germany with the 6 divisions plus AF and BB shot in UK2, then 8 divisions plus AF and support shot in UK3… right as teh Americans arive to reinforce or follow up.
You have a choice as Germany…
Spend 16 IPC to make your Baltic Fleet actually WORTH something, or surrender those $36 of units for basically no gain.
Dont forget to take into account time lost by the Allies in rebuilding those transports and moving them into position after they use them as fodder on your fleet.
Also, you’re trading 8 dollar submarines for 10 dollar fighters if they choose to go AIR FORCE only against your fleet.
I completely disagree. If UK wants to do a suicide run on EE on UK 2 go ahead.
First, they’ll lose 2 ftrs on the Baltic fleet attack on UK 1.
Second, if they want to hit 12+ inf, 5+ arm, aa on UK 2, Go ahead! Lol!
Germany may lose half their “extra” units but the UK just threw away their entire airforce and several more units that don’t go to Afr or Nor.
I’ll take 3 inf for 4 inf, 1 rt, 1 arm, 1 ftr and 1 bom all day long,
WE can still have ~6 inf, rt, 2 arm, 5 ftrs, aa, go ahead an hit that as well. Double Lol!
Thanks for giving me Africa. (Oh yeah, assuming bid to Lib)
Why would Germany attack the UK fleet? That is just foolish. You have 5 ftrs defending at 4 why use them as 3’s. Let UK try it’s “fools gold” stike.
The 1-2-3 punch from UK-UK-US would never work.
Germany is placing 10 inf, 2 arm in rd 1, 10 inf, 2 arm in rd 2, and 10 inf, 2 arm in rd 3.
You place the Inf in Ger and arm on SE.
UK and US CAN’T come close to competeing with those numbers, not in rds 1-3, and not conceding Afr. You have to sink the Med fleet at some pt???
You lost 1-2 ftrs taking out the initial Baltic Fleet.
That means at best, 3 inf, 3 arm, 1 ftr, 1 bom, 1 bb vs. ~12 inf, ~2-4 arm, aa (due to non coms from G2).
As soon as you make this attack, you telegraph your Round 3 moves and Germany can easily prepare for it on G3.
If it works for you guys, great. I know it is used by a lot of players, so I guess it must work sometimes. I just know I can exploit it as Russia.
And it doesn’t really fit my style of play as Germany.
I’ve tried it, and I think it handicaps me. But again that is just personal preference.
Darth,
The UK attack on Baltic Fleet is nearly even odds of 1 or 2 dead FIGs.
UK can also land in Karelia and/or Norway, while still maintianing a threat on Western, Germany and Eastern. That is 5 territories for Germany to defend. if you mass that heavy in Eastern, you WILL be weak in one (or more) of those 5, and UK can hit it, unrestricted. That is the point of the Baltic AC, to reduce Germany;s front line to a smaller area.
@ncscswitch:
Darth,
The UK attack on Baltic Fleet is nearly even odds of 1 or 2 dead FIGs.
UK can also land in Karelia and/or Norway, while still maintianing a threat on Western, Germany and Eastern. That is 5 territories for Germany to defend. if you mass that heavy in Eastern, you WILL be weak in one (or more) of those 5, and UK can hit it, unrestricted. That is the point of the Baltic AC, to reduce Germany;s front line to a smaller area.
Very true, but now you have 5 more infantry to defend.
And 4 fewer ships to even SUGGEST a threat to the Allied TRN fleets.
And Darth, let us not forget that I did win the game I played against you where I was the Axis, and I bought the Baltic AC on G1 :-D :evil: :mrgreen:
