Painted scultps with National Colored base stands

Black_Elk · Jul 31, 2015, 6:31 AM

One of the things that’s stopped me from painting my sculpts (aside from the obvious challenge of all the detail work haha) is the issue with difficulty of recognition. You know, since most ships are gray, and most planes are neutral colors, and its hard to spot a very tiny national roundel or insignia to easily identify which units belong to which nations

Lately I was thinking, what if each unit had a squared off basestand, in colored plastic that matched the current scheme?

for example…

Germany infantry, artillery, tanks etc stand atop a tiny gray square.
The Russian’s have a red square, the British a tan square, Japanese golden square, American green square etc.

Same deal with fighters, even ships, basically every unit on a flat plastic base that matches the usual national color schemes for A&A.

I was thinking this would be fairly simple, and would make it easier to “push” units (especially ground) across the map with minimal wobble, while still keeping the essential color-scheme that everyone is familiar with on the bases.

I think something like that would look cool for any future special deluxe anniversary edition type boards.

I’ve seen black bases and clear bases before, but I think it would be cool to have them colored to fit the usual scheme… Red, Grey, Tan, Gold, Green etc.

I also prefer the squares to circular bases for infantry, since then you could “lock and push” the units with ease. The square base could be fitted into a depression on the round plastic counter chips, that way units stay fixed in place. And you could do the same with transports and carriers, providing flat bottoms that fit the rectangular bases. The advantage of the square/rectangle, is that it will leave visible more of the national color information, so its easy to distinguish the units at a glance.

Does that make sense?

cyanight · Jul 31, 2015, 12:51 PM

I did something similar with my pieces. I bought some extra infantry and cut off the bases to use with the artillery. The main reason I did this was because my set is also magnetized and I need a base to put the magnet inside. The Inf and artillery also have roundels on the colored bases as well. Â All the tanks and mech share a common country color scheme as do the ships. The ships also have a color scheme except for the Carriers which I made with my own custom decals. The Subs, Destroyers, transports and battleships and cruisers share a common color scheme though. Battleships also have a clear flag on them to distinguish them from cruisers.

Check out my thread below
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33966.135

Der Kuenstler · Jul 31, 2015, 3:24 PM

I agree that some pieces can get hard to identify due to extreme realism. The only problem with bases is that they will take up more map room, plus it would look even more unrealistic than colors - ships and tanks floating around on top of rectangles. I have no problem at all with part of each game piece being the country color. For example, only paint the superstructure of the ships grey, leaves the hulls country color. After all, these are primarily game pieces, not show pieces - IMO their primary purpose should be to enhance enjoyment of the game.

CWO Marc · Jul 31, 2015, 5:27 PM

@Black_Elk:

The Russian’s have a red square

Yes they do – in more ways than one. :-D

But seriously: I understand the unit-recognition problem you’ve described, but I concur with DK that adding bases to the units – in addition to being a lot of work – would use up a lot of map space. In a sense it would also be counterproductive because, in my opinion at least, bases make miniatures look less realistic and therefore they neutralize the whole point of painting the miniatures in the first place, which is to make them look more realistic.

I have enormous admiration for folks who have the talent and the patience and the eye-hand coordination to paint a tank miniature small enough to fit on a dime, to say nothing of doing the same thing to the hundreds of other miniatures that come in an A&A game, but personally I much prefer the plain coloured OOB plastic look. It’s easier to map identification purposes, it creates a nice sense of unity among a nation’s forces, and as a sculpt collector I’ve always enjoyed the challenge of making use of (though sometimes it’s more a case of “working around the problems of”) the piece colours that have been provided over the years in various games to depict national forces beyond the official ones provided in the games themselves. But that’s just a personal preference, of course.

Tall Paul · Aug 17, 2015, 4:31 PM

Black_Elk & Others,

––Let me share my opinions with you that I’ve developed through much experience.
–First, I think it’s VERY IMPORTANT that each and every unit be marked with it’s national insignia. Doing so makes possible the immediate recognition of national boundaries and speeds the game along. I’ve found that with the entire base of my Infantry units painted in this way,….identifying territory control becomes almost “automatic” and it makes the use of territorial control markers mostly unnecesary.
–Although I prefer to have the entire bases of my Infantry painted with their national insignia,…you could use decals or stickers, although they are much smaller in size, to accomplish some of the same effect. I recommend
I-94 Enterprises decals. I’ve bought literally hundreds of them over the last few years and I’m COMPLETELY SATISFIED with them. Historical Board Gaming.com even stocks them now.

––IMHO placing squares on the bottom of all of your units will take up too much room. I play almost all of my A&A games on maps that have been enlarged 150%,…and have more room everywhere,…but still think it would be a mistake to “enlarge” each of your units.

Below are some pics that show my preferences in adding the national insignias to units. Notice that the Infantry bases are perfectly sized to be used as Territory Control Markers. I hope this might help.
(P.S.-These Russians, as well as ALL of my Infantry were painted by Chad Coffman, a.k.a. “Allworkandnoclay”)

Tall Paul

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Guadalcanal2_zpseea05c60.jpg_thumb
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Black_Elk · Aug 1, 2015, 1:45 AM

Damn Paul those look clean! Nice work man!

I guess upon further consideration, I can see why people would have reservations about bases. For infantry I think you could get away with a square that is roughly the same dimensions as a round base. The reason why I thought it might be cool is for the locking and pushing and organizing into neat rows and columns. For example with a square base you can push a column of like 3 infantry, or a square of 6 infantry pretty easily, just with your index finder on the back…whereas if they’re round the same push will usually spread them. That’s pretty minor though I suppose.

More important to me would be wobble. Right now most units work fine, but their are few that are notorious for tipping in my games. Infantry, Subs, and Aircraft (especially on carriers), though those last I think could be improved with flatter bottoms. Perhaps just shaving them down so they’re nice and level, or using wing supports. That issue is independent of the national colors though. I’ve often felt that I’d be plenty happy with the basic national colors, if the sculpts where a little weightier and flatter in the bases.

But man looking at that photo is inspiring. To have an OOB game that came with pieces prepainted like that, I’d easily drop twice the cash.

Tall Paul · Jul 31, 2015, 9:55 PM

@Black_Elk:

Damn Paul those look clean! Nice work man!
––Thanks for the compliment. But the point I was trying to make was that having the national insignias on the bottom of your Infantry units,…either large painted versions or smaller decals,…really helps move the game along and I’ve found that I usually don’t have to bother with placing territory control markers as they are already there (on the Infantry units).

----Also, IMHO I’ve found that placing a small national flag on the top-rear deck of armored units works well. Refer to the pics below.
We would all do well to understand that we must strike a “balance” between our paint jobs being “historically accurate” and making the playing of our game easier, faster, & more fun. Because after all,…it is a GAME.
(P.S.-These U.S. Army and U.S. Marine Corps Stuart and Sherman tanks were painted by Lucas Hoffman, a.k.a. “LHoffman” here on A&A.Org)

Tall Paul

Black_Elk · Aug 1, 2015, 1:54 AM

I like those stars and stripes! That’s a mean stack of armor right there!

It’s a pretty cool idea. By having the decal in place on the units, the only time you’d really need a roundel is when two ally nations are occupying the same conquered territory. Like say if Japan and Germany were both in Egypt, or USA and UK both in France. But otherwise that saves on room, since standard cardboard roundels are pretty large. A lot of prime real estate gets taken up by them, enough room for what, like 4 infantry? I think it would help with crowding for sure.

I often wonder why they don’t cut the diameter on the roundels in half so they could print twice as many. They’d still be easy enough to pop, since you could just use the back end of a pencil or something. Japan often run out of roundels, sometimes G and UK too, so any system that cuts back on them would free those up for other uses.

Again though, nice job on the sculpts. The detailing is killer!

Tall Paul · Aug 1, 2015, 5:22 PM

@Black_Elk:

I like those stars and stripes! That’s a mean stack of armor right there!
––I’m glad you liked them. You’ll notice that the US flags are the correct ones having only 48 stars instead of 50. Again, these are I-94 Enterprises decals. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND them. As far as the “stack of armor” you’ll notice 6 Anzac Stuart light tanks in their “outback” camoflage in the corner of the pic. They have the dark blue circle w/white dot center national insignias.
It’s a pretty cool idea. By having the decal in place on the units, the only time you’d really need a roundel is when two ally nations are occupying the same conquered territory. Like say if Japan and Germany were both in Egypt, or USA and UK both in France. But otherwise that saves on room, since standard cardboard roundels are pretty large. A lot of prime real estate gets taken up by them, enough room for what, like 4 infantry? I think it would help with crowding for sure.

I often wonder why they don’t cut the diameter on the roundels in half so they could print twice as many. They’d still be easy enough to pop, since you could just use the back end of a pencil or something. Japan often run out of roundels, sometimes G and UK too, so any system that cuts back on them would free those up for other uses.
––IMHO, I try to make everything on the map visable and immediately identifyable from 5 feet away. This really helps in speeding up the game and everyones’ ability to organise their thoughts/plans quickly
Again though, nice job on the sculpts. The detailing is killer!
––Thanks again. There are MANY TALENTED people here on A&A.Org-detailers, painters, mapmakers, etc. and the best thing is that they are friendly and SHARE their talents with the rest of us! I only try to do my small part, but I’m very happy if I might have inspired you to try painting your units. For some more “inspiration” you might check out the rest of my painted units using the link below"

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=29550.0

Tall Paul

LHoffman · Aug 5, 2015, 1:48 PM

Ahh… now that brings back memories. Nice to see an armor pool every now and then.

@Black_Elk:

It’s a pretty cool idea. By having the decal in place on the units, the only time you’d really need a roundel is when two ally nations are occupying the same conquered territory. Like say if Japan and Germany were both in Egypt, or USA and UK both in France. But otherwise that saves on room, since standard cardboard roundels are pretty large. A lot of prime real estate gets taken up by them, enough room for what, like 4 infantry? I think it would help with crowding for sure.

I often wonder why they don’t cut the diameter on the roundels in half so they could print twice as many. They’d still be easy enough to pop, since you could just use the back end of a pencil or something. Japan often run out of roundels, sometimes G and UK too, so any system that cuts back on them would free those up for other uses.

My perspective here… The standard bases are totally fine with me. I like the units to look as realistic as possible and adding a larger rectangle on the bottom of a tank or a ship would just look very odd. The only units I have had issues with falling over are subs. Yes, infantry will fall if you knock the board, but they are really pretty stable as they are. And airplanes would look ungainly with a rectangular base, not to mention it would cover up a beautiful painted carrier deck.

In the future, whenever that is, I intend to have all of my units fully painted. I do not feel the need to keep part of the unit unpainted (original plastic color) to aid in recognition. That is what decals are for or the roundel bases on infantry. Being able to determine a unit’s nationality may not always be glaringly obvious with a cursory glance. However, that is okay for me. Seasoned players should be able to keep track of their units and territories. I think it also can add to the ‘fog of war’ effect, which is sorely lacking in this game.

Tall Paul mentioned Allworkandnoclay, who has painted many of his units. I remember that in Allwork’s original painting thread, he actually left a very small portion of each unit unpainted to show the plastic color underneath. Supposedly this was to allow for recognition of what country’s units they were, though I thought the unpainted part to be way too small for truly effective recognition. But you could do something similar with your units if you are concerned about being able to tell the difference. It might look weird, but it’s an option.

I highly doubt that either HBG or Wizards will reconfigure their molds to include squared of bases. (I don’t know if you were suggesting this, but it kinda sounded like it) It would add a huge amount of plastic and therefore expense. However, I would think that you could glue your pieces to rectangular bases pretty easily. That way you can make them exactly how you would like.

And as for roundels (because I love sharing my opinion… :roll:), my philosophy for their use is that they are only necessary in conquered territories and only when you have few or no other units in that conquered territory. No need to put roundels in your own territories (rather redundant since they already have one printed on the map) unless possibly said territory is changing hands every turn and needs to be kept close track of. Consequently, they don’t take up too much space for me. Each roundel is only slightly larger than an infantry base, so I do not quite understand why you are saying they take up enough space for 4 infantry. Reducing their size by half would save a little space, but they would be harder to see and more prone to getting lost or moved around on the board. Integrating a roundel on each infantry base will further reduce the need to use roundels on their own.

cyanight · Aug 5, 2015, 6:57 PM

The roundels still need to be used. I can think of the standard attack that Italy does with their tanks on Poland and other Russian territories to allow the Luftwaffe to land and defend it. The territory without a roundel would look like it was controlled by Germany since It would have more pieces and specifically the Inf which has the roundel painted on the base rather than the Italian tank which took it first.

Tall Paul · Aug 5, 2015, 7:18 PM

@LHoffman:

Tall Paul mentioned Allworkandnoclay, who has painted many of his units. I remember that in Allwork’s original painting thread, he actually left a very small portion of each unit unpainted to show the plastic color underneath. Supposedly this was to allow for recognition of what country’s units they were, though I thought the unpainted part to be way too small for truly effective recognition. But you could do something similar with your units if you are concerned about being able to tell the difference. It might look weird, but it’s an option.

––This would be a good time to “update” everyone on my preferences for painted Infantry bases. When I first noticed Chad and was completely awed by his painting talents, he was painting the national insignias on the bases of all Infantry units and also painted the vertical parts of their bases the color of the original unpainted plastic as an aid to further identification. I bought several of his units and commisioned him to do a few hundred more. I never liked the “clash” of colors that were on the Infantry bases (see below for pics) and when HBG produced some Paratrooper units I decided it was time for a change.
––Although we still had several hundred units in the “que” to be painted,…I decided I wanted to go back and repaint the vertical parts of ALL of the Infantry units BLACK which would compliment the national insignia colors and somewhat “frame” them. That is, all except the Paratrooper units which would have the vertical parts of their bases painted WHITE, so as to immediately make them stand out as not only different but Paratroopers.
––I had already done something simular to this with ALL of the Air Transport aircraft by painting White engine cowlings and wingtips on them to make them immediately identifyiable to all players in the game.

–Notice in these “old” pics the vertical parts of the bases below are painted to represent the colors of the OOB unpainted plastic,…Light Gray for Anzac and Lime Green for National China.
–These vertical parts will be repainted into the new standard of BLACK on all Infantry units other than Paratroopers,….which will have WHITE vertical surfaces to obviously mark them as units with special capabilities. I find that the White color also subconsiously reminds everyone of the white parachutes they utilize.

Tall Paul

LHoffman · Aug 5, 2015, 7:36 PM

@cyanight:

The roundels still need to be used. I can think of the standard attack that Italy does with their tanks on Poland and other Russian territories to allow the Luftwaffe to land and defend it. The territory without a roundel would look like it was controlled by Germany since It would have more pieces and specifically the Inf which has the roundel painted on the base rather than the Italian tank which took it first.

This is obviously true. I did not bring up this scenario because Black Elk already did. Two (or more) Powers jointly occupying a territory occurs in maybe 10% of territories on the board… meaning it is the exception rather than the norm.

Tall Paul · Aug 5, 2015, 8:21 PM

@LHoffman:

@cyanight:

The roundels still need to be used. I can think of the standard attack that Italy does with their tanks on Poland and other Russian territories to allow the Luftwaffe to land and defend it. The territory without a roundel would look like it was controlled by Germany since It would have more pieces and specifically the Inf which has the roundel painted on the base rather than the Italian tank which took it first.

This is obviously true. I did not bring up this scenario because Black Elk already did. Two (or more) Powers jointly occupying a territory occurs in maybe 10% of territories on the board… meaning it is the exception rather than the norm.
––As usual I find myself agreeing with Lucas. I believe I used the terms “usually” and “almost automatic” in my descriptions above.

Tall Paul

Black_Elk · Aug 6, 2015, 5:18 AM

@LHoffman:

Each roundel is only slightly larger than an infantry base, so I do not quite understand why you are saying they take up enough space for 4 infantry. Reducing their size by half would save a little space, but they would be harder to see and more prone to getting lost or moved around on the board.

Well I was just going with the rough approximation. A normal roundel chip is about the same diameter as 2 infantry dudes right next to each other. For about the same space on the map as a roundel, I think you can usually squeeze in 4.
4 can all stand atop a single roundel if you face the rifles in instead of out.

Probably the description I was presenting doesn’t match the visual I had in my head. For units larger than infantry I was still thinking squares at the same size, not creeping out round the edges, but just underneath so the bottoms would be flat. My planes all tip at the wings so I was thinking like a small square under each wing to level, but without spilling out larger than the wingspan. Basically colored bottoms, like the other guy you mentioned. Though I agree, subs are definitely prone to tip, and way too thin for a base to solve the problem without looking all clunky. Honestly, Cyanight’s magnetic solution seems pretty awesome. Labor intensive no doubt, but the payoff is that unit wobble is totally eliminated! I’m definitely intrigued!

You guys have taken it to a whole 'nother level. This section has some great ideas and solutions. Thanks for the insights :)

cyanight · Aug 6, 2015, 1:32 PM

@LHoffman:

@cyanight:

The roundels still need to be used. Â I can think of the standard attack that Italy does with their tanks on Poland and other Russian territories to allow the Luftwaffe to land and defend it. Â The territory without a roundel would look like it was controlled by Germany since It would have more pieces and specifically the Inf which has the roundel painted on the base rather than the Italian tank which took it first.

This is obviously true. I did not bring up this scenario because Black Elk already did. Two (or more) Powers jointly occupying a territory occurs in maybe 10% of territories on the board… meaning it is the exception rather than the norm.

Very good point. I do think it happens more that 10%. We might try to use less roundels in our next game and see how it goes.

LHoffman · Aug 7, 2015, 12:38 PM

@Black_Elk:

Well I was just going with the rough approximation. A normal roundel chip is about the same diameter as 2 infantry dudes right next to each other. For about the same space on the map as a roundel, I think you can usually squeeze in 4.
4 can all stand atop a single roundel if you face the rifles in instead of out.

Well, I stand corrected then. It must be a while since I have played. Very good picture.

@Black_Elk:

Probably the description I was presenting doesn’t match the visual I had in my head. For units larger than infantry I was still thinking squares at the same size, not creeping out round the edges, but just underneath so the bottoms would be flat. My planes all tip at the wings so I was thinking like a small square under each wing to level, but without spilling out larger than the wingspan. Basically colored bottoms, like the other guy you mentioned. Though I agree, subs are definitely prone to tip, and way too thin for a base to solve the problem without looking all clunky. Honestly, Cyanight’s magnetic solution seems pretty awesome. Labor intensive no doubt, but the payoff is that unit wobble is totally eliminated! I’m definitely intrigued!

I think I understand a little bit better. For me at least, sculpt instability still isn’t too much of an issue. And if I am imagining your aircraft description properly, it seems like it would make them all look like flying boats. Space-wise, things do get a little cramped, but I am okay with that. I do intend, when all pieces are painted and my dream is complete, to have an enlarged board in a semi-permanent setup. Something like HBG’s Global War. That board seems big enough to alleviate issues of space, but I have never played it so I don’t know.

The11HP20 · Aug 28, 2015, 3:23 PM

Very nice work. I’m way too unsteady of hand and mind to pull that off.

Painted scultps with National Colored base stands

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