Evolution Poll

[Jennifer]

No wait a doggon minute, Switch.  I never said anything about government sanctioned christian schools.  What I said is that the government has sanctioned the slaughter of the christian faith from schools.  IF teachers want to pray, let them.  IF the local PTA wants a nativity scene at christmas, let them.  It’s freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

@ncscswitch:

When combined with things such as Jen’s statement about government established Christian Schools, or with statements from folks like Katherine Harris last week… then YES, it IS being attempted to be “forced down our throats.”

And the typical response from the Christian Right when anyone voices objection is “if you don;t like it, go to another country.”

That my friend IS forcing it upon those of us who are not fundamentalist Christians.

@Jermofoot:

@NoMercy:

I am not forcing this upon anyone. I am stating that men choose to sin on there own free will and because of sin you cannot enter into heaven unless you are saved.

people who are good there whole lives wont get there for being good. Life if you have realized isn’t fair, so if they knew the truth that they had to be saved and arn’t then its there own fault.

Insisting that there is a heaven (going on nothing more than hope), and then saying “that’s the way it is,” is indeed forcing it down others’ throats.

A)  Mercy’s right.  Christians are instructed to inform non-believers of the law, but not to force them to comply with it.  If you choose to ignore the law, when the day of Judgement comes, you will not have a valid arguement that you did not know the law.  We informed you that if you did not seek redemption through Jesus then the law says you will be sent into hell/exile from God.  We do not enforce the law, we just let you know of it because we don’t want you to be in hell, we’d be much happier having you with us in bliss.

B)  No, it isn’t forcing it down your throat.  I have no qualms telling a bunch of people at a rally that killing babies is murder and that doing that, without seeking redemption in their hearts for doing wrong doing, may get them sent to hell.  But after I’ve spoken my mind, if I’m just told to go away, I’ll stop preaching.    IF you want to argue against it, then you are inviting me to continue trying to persuade you to my vantage point on the issue.  (It’s the same for the other tenaments, I see a Muslim or a Buddist I’ll tell them I think they’re in the wrong religion because of A, B and C.  IF they say that’s nice and change the subject, I let it drop too.)

C)  Yes, if Adolf Hitler, in his heart, and asked for redemption before the end and had not committed suicide (which is, I believe, the only sin you cannot ask for forgiveness from since you are dead after you committ it, and you have to be alive to ask for redemption) then yes, I think his sins, as horrendous as they were, would be forgiven.  After all, Saul, who also persecuted the Jews resulting in the torture and death of many was given redemption and became an evangelist himself (renamed Paul.)  If even he could be forgiven of his sins, then anyone can.  You only need to honestly repent, not just give it lip service.

[Guest]

Hitler did indeed repent, 1 minute before he died. That’s a recorded fact. Now he is enjoying eternal bliss in heaven with GOD!

[Guest]

Jen you specifically stated government established, but not operated, Christian schools.

If if they are setting them up, then they are indeed sanctioning them.

And teacher CAN pray, they just can’t lead their class in it.  PRIVATELY they can do as they please.

[Jennifer]

@MADDOGG:

Hitler did indeed repent, 1 minute before he died. That’s a recorded fact. Now he is enjoying eternal bliss in heaven with GOD!

He committed suicide, he thus murdered himself and, since he is dead as of that act, he cannot repent of that sin.

So, no, I don’t believe he’ll go to heaven.  I could be wrong.  As I said, God makes that decision, not me!  (And you better be happy cause no one but my close personal friends and family would get to go because I hate humans.)

@ncscswitch:

Jen you specifically stated government established, but not operated, Christian schools.

If if they are setting them up, then they are indeed sanctioning them.

And teacher CAN pray, they just can’t lead their class in it.  PRIVATELY they can do as they please.

I don’t remember saying that we should build government established religious schools.  That doesn’t even sound like me.    I know the government is setting up and mandating schools that are anti-christian in nature.  And I’d like to see the war on christianity stop.  But it won’t.  It’s a wicked nation run by the wicked for the wicked.  It’s only a matter of time before we are over thrown by a foreign government or by our own people and religion picks up again.  It’s a cycle that happens to all major nations of the world.

And no.  A teacher caught praying on public school grounds is subject to immediate dismissal.  Any member of the NEA can tell you that, it’s in the NEA (National Educaters Association - AKA the Teacher’s Union) hand book.  I get a copy next week, I can give you page number and line by line verbatim if you want.  Government Employees (including teachers) cannot espouse a religious faith at their place of business when dealing with minors.  They are only allowed to tow the government line which is Man is God, we are the supreme beings in the universe and there is nothing better then us.

[Guest]

@Jennifer:

Government Employees (including teachers) cannot espouse a religious faith at their place of business when dealing with minors.

Stop ignoring those important clauses when you debate Jen.  That statement WITH the “dealing with minors” clause is there explicitly because of teh Equal Access Act, and the provisions thereof (signed by Ronald Reagan no less…)

Your actual statement on schools was somethign about the government building/establishing christian schools, but you also said that the government would not run them.  It was a couple of days ago, but I remember the post.

[Guest]

I need a ruling on this. So say Hitler repented with 1 minute to go supposedly assuring eternal bliss. Then say he kills himself. Would that suddenly bounce him back to eternal hell?? What’s the ruling on the field?  I love toying with you religious people and some of your wacky ideas! :-D

[Guest]

Or better yet…

Hitler comitted suicide via cyanide if memory serves.

What if he repented AFTER to took the pill?  Thus repenting AFTER the act taht actually killed him, and before he could do any other sinful act.

Whould his soul enter heaven prstine and perfect?  :evil:

[Jennifer]

@ncscswitch:

@Jennifer:

Government Employees (including teachers) cannot espouse a religious faith at their place of business when dealing with minors.

Stop ignoring those important clauses when you debate Jen.  That statement WITH the “dealing with minors” clause is there explicitly because of teh Equal Access Act, and the provisions thereof (signed by Ronald Reagan no less…)

Your actual statement on schools was somethign about the government building/establishing christian schools, but you also said that the government would not run them.  It was a couple of days ago, but I remember the post.

I’m gunna need a quote.  I don’t believe I’ve ever said the government should build religious schools.  I think they are building religious schools with the religion being science, but that’s not the same as them building catholic schools.  I know I said that schools that are defunct are usually sold to churches because they’re normally on teh worst land available and thus no one will actually pay market value for them.

Perhaps someone else said the government is/should be building religious schools.

Maddog/Switch:

From what I understand, 1 sin committed with full knowledge and with intent to committ sin will prevent you from entering the gates of heaven.  I do not believe you can give lip service when it comes to confession and asking of absolution of your sins.  So yes.  If you took cyanide with the distinct plan to repent between the taking of the pill and death, then no, i don’t think it would count and you would still be committed of murdering yourself.

I don’t view this as any whackier then the American justice system where you can tell a priest you’re going to murder a little girl and then expect the priest not to turn you into the authorities - of when a cop give you a ticket, you fight it and win, but still have to pay the full fine to the courts.

[Guest]

I did not say he took it with intent to repent.  I asked what if he repented immediately after taking the pill (one of those epiphanies?)

[Jennifer]

If he honestly and truthfully repented, even after he had started a chain of events that could not be undone and would eventually lead to his own death, then yes he would be forgiven in my opinion of what’s written.  God extends to us every chance to repent before we die.

[Guest]

Catholic priests need to get laid!

[Shining Bowie]

But Jen, lets not forget that after one accepts salvation one cannot lose it, no matter how far they “backslide” afterwards. They are still a child of God.

[Avin]

@Jennifer:

After all, Saul, who also persecuted the Jews resulting in the torture and death of many was given redemption and became an evangelist himself (renamed Paul.)

Where do you get this from (the renamed Paul bit specifically)?

[MauserBob]

The Book of Acts.

Rob.

[Shining Bowie]

Yeah that is pretty obvious from actually READING the Bible before you comment on it. Your post didn’t make you seem very worthy to debate on subjects of the Bible, if you didn’t know something that obvious…… sorry if that sounds harsh… but it’s kinda common knowledge

[Guest]

Well hey, we have folks who want to disregard the reference to Lilith in the same book of the Bible… and that from someone who read the whole thing and has presented themselves as being very knowlegable about it…

[Jennifer]

@Shining:

But Jen, lets not forget that after one accepts salvation one cannot lose it, no matter how far they “backslide” afterwards. They are still a child of God.

I don’t think that’s true.  And I definately don’t remember reading it in the New Testament (which I read extensively while being stuck in a hospital bed for 3 months after I got injurred in Iraq.)

If you accept God then reject God through your actions then he’ll reject you again.  We are all born pure of sin, but fall into sin after our birth.  We are thus required to be reborn into purity through Jesus Christ.  If we decide to fall back into sin with premeditation and deliberate acts and do not later have a change of heart, then we are guilty of sin once again.  Baptism isn’t a get out of jail free card.

It’s like the parabel of the brothers asked to work the field.  One said he would and did not.  The other said he would not and later obeyed his father and did.    That’s similar to saying you’ll live a christian life then going out and sinning while the other goes out and sins then comes back and say’s s/he’s sorry and attempts to live the Christian life.  (Wish I could take credit for that analogy, but it’s Jesus’ he was good at analogies!)

[Avin]

Well MauserBob, Shining Bowie, or Jennifer, if you are confident you can find that in the book of Acts, please enlighten me where it states that Saul was renamed Paul.

I guarantee that you won’t find it.

Saul continues to be called Saul after his encounter with Jesus… see all of Acts chapter 9. No mention of renaming to Paul.

Furthermore, Saul continues to be called Saul when he is sent on his first missionary Journey: see Acts 13:2.

Saul is called Paul for the rest of the book of Acts, and Paul refers to himself by that name in his letters, with no mention of being renamed, even though he recounts his history a couple times.

If you find a reference to him being renamed, I will concede the point but it looks to me like the Bible makes absolutely no reference to Saul being renamed at any point.

Rather the names Saul and Paul are really the same name: the Hebrew form is “Sha-ul”, which is Romanized to Saul, and the Greek form is “Paulos” which is Romanized to Paul. When you first meet him in Acts it is in the Hebrew context, but the bulk of his life he is seen in a Greek context. He is still both Saul and Paul. No renaming takes place.

I have a hard time reading this thread when defenders of the Bible get Biblical facts wrong.

[Jennifer]

Avin,

if you actually read the text instead of going to bible falisies.org to get tidbits you could use in your arguements, you’d see that it is very plain that Paul had lived his entire life as a Roman Citizen with the name Saul and after conversion renamed himself to Paul.  Thus, he was renamed.  By changing his name he in effect renounced his mortal ways, the ways of a Roman Citizen who worshipped as a Pharisee and accepted the Christian lifestyle.

It isn’t like you could go to the local magistrate and have your name legally changed back then.  You were called by whatever name you wanted.

Sorry, but you’re picking at straws because you know no better.  Read the book.  You don’t have to believe it, but at least read it if you want to argue it.  Or, if you MUST use blogs, at least read the Christian ones so you understand the context of the situation.  He called himself Saul and persecuted Christians, later he called himself Paul and preached Christianity.

[Avin]

I ask you to read the Bible. Look at the verses I quoted. Saul was called Saul while he self-identified as a Christian according to Acts. I used absolutely no sources for my previous post other than the Bible itself. Don’t think that anyone who argues against you is using some sort of anti-Christian source. As I recall, you still have yet to give me a satisfactory answer to your claim that “God provides for those who provide for themselves” is a Biblical concept in the other Evolution thread after repeatedly ignoring me after I called you out for using a passage that actually demonstrates the opposite. I am not too impressed with your knowledge of the Bible at all and I am rather baffled therefore as to what is motivating you at all.

Furthermore your recent post seems to be even less based in historical reality. Saul was a Roman Citizen, true, but he certainly did not renounce this fact after becoming a Christian. In fact he was much more accomodating to the Roman empire once becoming a Christian than before. Prior to his encounter with Jesus, he was not only a Pharisee but one who would later self-describe himself as being zealous for his Judaism, echoing to Phinehas the former high priest (Numbers 25) or the Maccabees in that he was willing to kill deviant Jews (the Christians) in order to cleanse God’s people. As such, he would have despised the rule of the Romans, and his persecution of Christians would have been done as a way of bringing about God’s intervention to free the Jews from the Romans once and for all, via his messianic expectations.

However, after he became a Christian he continued to use his position as a Roman citizen (Acts 22 and onward), which was a far cry from renouncing the ways of a Roman Citizen as you suggest he did.