The British Fleet

[Jennifer]

What do you do as Japan if England moves their Transport/Submarine and Carrier/Fighter/Transport/Destroyer fleet together of the NW Coast of Australia?  (If the Egyptian Fighter isn’t dead, then pretend it was moved there as well.)

[ajgundam5]

Not move your East Indies Fleet and then once Pearl is done and you are in range attack it with all your navy and AF

[Jennifer]

But if you hit Pearl, your fleet is out of range except the BB/AC/Fig in East Indies.  It’s 3 spaces away.  Sea Zone 52 –> SZ 45 --> SZ 37.

Meanwhile, if England staged a bomber into India on UK 1, especially if Germany doesn’t get the fighter in Egypt, you’re talking a serious threat to your East Indies fleet on UK2.  If not, then England can take Borneo (4 IPC) with the Australians.  It’s worth more and it ties Japan transports up for at least a round in reclaiming it.

The other option is you attack it iwth some of your forces that can reach including, SS, 2 CV, 4 Fig, 1 BB, 1 BMB, 1 DD and forgo hitting Pearl.

Since the British fleet’s dead anyway (gunna take 5 rounds before you can use it in English Waters even if you run away, 4 to get there, 1 to use it) it’s worth it.  At least the American’s will ahve a carrier and the Brits will have a new one they build on R1.

[Guest]

Well, the Egypt FIG is dead in almost all cases.  So you have an AC, 1 FIG, 2 TRN, 1 SUB and a DST.  In creating that fleet, you have abandoned Africa to Germany in the short term at least.  You also left the Solomons sub alive to aid at Pearl.

Now, that UK fleet has a defensive value of 14 with 6 units.
Japan has 1 BB, 1 AC, 2 FIGs off EI.  Attack value is 11, and a free hit with the BB.
Japan can also bring 2 more FIGs to the fight by using their Carolines AC as an LZ.
Attack value increased to 17.
72% Japan win.  77% all UK forces dead.

Even with that use of force against UK, Pearl is still
1 SUB, 1 AC, 1 FIG (defense 9)
1 SUB, 1 DST, 1 BB, 1 BOM (attack 13) and a free hit.
99% Japan victory.

What does that leave?
UK with no ships at all in the Indian or Pacific.
Germany with free reign in Africa for a few turns.
Japan with a loaded AC off EI
A BB, DST, and quite possibly a SUB off Pearl
2 pre-existing TRNs to shuttle troops on J1 to Asia.
3 FIGs still available for J1 attacks on China, India, and/or Bury

The Pearl Counter costs Japan their Hawaii force, and leaves the US with a solitary BB in the Pacific, which can be destoryed with 96% probability by Japan AF on J2.

Total Naval control without ANY opposition in the Indian and Pacific Oceans from J2 forward and Germany in control of Africa for at least a few rounds of boosted income.

[Infantry Rocks]

I think your being to optimistic for Japan with that move order ncscswitch.
The Indian attack force will take 4 or 5 hits which means you’ll lose multiple fighters.
Also if you don’t send in an AC to Pearl, you’ll have a lone BB as your expected survivor. America can sink it without loss and have a BB and tran off Hawaii. Now sending the Japaneese air force will cost you even more fighters.

Instead of overextending why not just let the UK fleet live and be happy that Egypt counter didn’t happen and the Kwangtung transport is actually alive. If the British go after one of your money island the Pearl fighters are actually in range and productive R2. You can recapture the island easily enough with your bonus transport and Australia will then be weakened and in range during J3.

[Guest]

I am just using the SIM results, which says 2-3 Japan ships left alive at Pearl with the forces I specified.

As for losing FIGs…

With no fleets in the Pacific, Japan’s remaining 2-3 FIGs and BOM plus 11-14 divisions per turn into Asia with ZERO Allied threat is more than enough to crush Russia, evn if Germany is being hard pressed…

Not to metnion destroying UK’s income.

[Jennifer]

Personally, if Hawaii is that light (and I’m assuming no BB because you need it to defend your Transports in Japans sea zones usually) then I’ll send a BB there with fighters, sink the BB and keep the fighters.  America can just build a carrier on R1 which is more effective then a carrier.

But yea, I’m thinking the UK fleet could chew up a few Jap ships reducing their war making ability and making it much easier to take out later.  At the very least, it forces them to go lighter in the rest of their theater and thus makes them much slower then normal without loosing any assets you wouldn’t normally loose anyway.

I’m just wondering if it’s a better use of the British Fleet then hitting the sub with your sub/trn/fig and hitting the trn with your carrier/destroyer.

[Amon-Sul]

@Jennifer:

well, if you ask me

these Kwangtung attack is definitely not a good move, almost anything with these units is better than this:   and hitting the trn with your carrier/destroyer.

so i would consider the Australian idea to consideration, altough it doesnt seem good to me; but it is better than the Kwangtung attack

[Amon-Sul]

well, if you ask me

these Kwangtung attack is definitely not a good move, almost anything with these units is better than this:  ˝ hitting the trn with your carrier/destroyer.˝

so i would consider the Australian idea to consideration, altough it doesnt seem good to me; but it is better than the Kwangtung attack

[Infantry Rocks]

Not a good move? I think it’s very stong. Forgoing it and Egypt counter are my mine hesitations with this strategy.

Ncswitch your right. Pearl expects multiples survivors. Still, Japan usually has unhindered access to Asia and Pacific naval supremacy anyway. Now your just down some fighters. I still think saying thank you for the tranport and Egypt and waiting a round to destroy the fleet is better. It’s not like those Japaneese Pearl fighters do anything on J2 anyway.

[Jennifer]

I dunno what you’re talking about.  I usually end up using those fighters on J2 in some capacity…if not attack at least in defense.  Though, I’ve been toying with the idea of hitting other pacific targets.

With England, you could take Borneo and New Guinee on UK 1.  Remember, if you retake Egypt you will loose everything there on Germany 2 ANYWAY.  So why not stick a thorn in Japan’s side?  Now they’re down 5 of 13 island points.  That’s a full third of their water holdings.  It’s two places they’ll have to reconquer.  It’s two places easily won by the British (at the least you should get Borneo for 4 points.)  You can still defend with your fleet (1@1, 2@3, 1@4) and you can still draw away Japanese forces from Hawaii making him attack lighter.

Then just send your submarine to sink the other submarine.

or just use infantry in the attacks giving you a 1.414 to 1 chance to win and use the fighter and submarine to hit the Jap sub and land your fighter on the AC in Hawaii, thus making Japan loose even more in his attack on Pearl or at least forcing him to commit more then he otherwise would.

or use infantry for borneo and new guinee, send the sub to solomons, send the fighter to kwangtung and land it on the carrier in borneo again.  Now you have +5/30 (17% of Japan’s starting income) killed it’s submarine and it’s transport.

Remember, when dealing with the Axis the point is to force them to committ strong attack units where they don’t want them.  Get those units as far out of position as possible while maximizing the damage you can do.  After all, the American and British fleets are dead anyway.  Why not use them to maximum effect?  If you can kill off 2 or 3 Japanese fighters, Russia will be miles ahead in slowing the Japanese advance.  It’ll take at least 3 rounds for Japan to recover and probably more like 6 or 7 rounds.  That’s more infantry you can send to Germany, that’s slower Germany can go.

[ajgundam5]

@Jennifer:

I dunno what you’re talking about.  I usually end up using those fighters on J2 in some capacity…if not attack at least in defense.  Though, I’ve been toying with the idea of hitting other pacific targets.

With England, you could take Borneo and New Guinee on UK 1.  Remember, if you retake Egypt you will loose everything there on Germany 2 ANYWAY.  So why not stick a thorn in Japan’s side?  Now they’re down 5 of 13 island points.  That’s a full third of their water holdings.  It’s two places they’ll have to reconquer.  It’s two places easily won by the British (at the least you should get Borneo for 4 points.)  You can still defend with your fleet (1@1, 2@3, 1@4) and you can still draw away Japanese forces from Hawaii making him attack lighter.

Then just send your submarine to sink the other submarine.

or just use infantry in the attacks giving you a 1.414 to 1 chance to win and use the fighter and submarine to hit the Jap sub and land your fighter on the AC in Hawaii, thus making Japan loose even more in his attack on Pearl or at least forcing him to commit more then he otherwise would.

or use infantry for borneo and new guinee, send the sub to solomons, send the fighter to kwangtung and land it on the carrier in borneo again.  Now you have +5/30 (17% of Japan’s starting income) killed it’s submarine and it’s transport.

Remember, when dealing with the Axis the point is to force them to committ strong attack units where they don’t want them.  Get those units as far out of position as possible while maximizing the damage you can do.  After all, the American and British fleets are dead anyway.  Why not use them to maximum effect?  If you can kill off 2 or 3 Japanese fighters, Russia will be miles ahead in slowing the Japanese advance.  It’ll take at least 3 rounds for Japan to recover and probably more like 6 or 7 rounds.  That’s more infantry you can send to Germany, that’s slower Germany can go.

I said this too but I was thinking of using Indian forces for taking islands but I agree with you that even if you do retake Egypt on UK1 Germany can take it back if they want to so you might as well wait for America to liberate it on turn 3-4 because Japan can take Australia/NZ if they want to so you might as well do as much damage as you can distracting them as best you can.

[Guest]

If you do not re-take Egypt on UK1, on G2, Germany will gain a minimum of $5 on G2 in Africa.  And that is with only 1 ARM, 2 INF in Egypt, and a new amphib to T-J.  If they have more ARM in Egypt, then add another $1-$2.

So, UK loses $2 on UK1, and a total of $7-$10 on UK2, nearly 1/3 of their total income.

And Germany goes over $50 IPC’s, more if they are advancing against Russia…

G3, after Japan has trashed the UK fleet and re-taken the islands, and is poised to do an early seizure of Australia and New Zealnd in J3; Germany takes South Africa, Persia, and Madagascar.

By Turn 3, UK is down to an income of HALF OR LESS, depending on if Japan also went after India’s paltry force, and whether or not UK used their TWO TRNs to invade Norway.

[Infantry Rocks]

How do you use the Japaneese fighters? If they land on an AC off Hawaii they are out of range of everything except Hawaii and the American mainland. Hawaii isn’t exactly a spectacular target and America would love for Japan to involve itself in a hopeless assault on LA. They can’t even land in Asia so the only defensive possibiliy is SZ60. I suppose you mean you don’t use them on Pearl Harbor.

Attacking Japaneese islands is a different idea than merging the fleets since you obviously can’t do both. I’m not sure how good this is. Now Japan CAN spilt its forces and favorably sink the American fleet and much of the British fleet. Yes Germany can divert resources to retaking Africa but by that same logic Japan can easily retake Borneo, especially if the Kwangtung tran lives. If you take New Guinea you weaken Australia. What good is gaining Borneo and Kwangtung for a turn or round if in exchange you then permanently lose Australia and NZ. (Often times these to are too far out of the way for Japan to bother with) India is weakened as well but of course that happens in Egypt counter as well so it’s a push.

[Jennifer]

Germany takes West Russia, Karelia, Egypt on G1 (maybe Ukraine if it was taken)
UK Takes Algeria, Takes Borneo, Takes New Guinee on UK1.
Japan sinks British fleet or American fleet.
American builds fleet and reinforces Algeria

(Germany up 4, England up 3)

Germany takes IEA, FEQ, Congo, maybe gets Archangelsk, maybe trades in Europe with Russia.
UK builds 3 tanks in india, takes Libya, maybe takes FIC, maybe not. 
America reinforces Britian, builds fleet

Germany up 7, England 0

Germany takes rest of Africa, England Liberates Egypt, England takes or strafes FIC

Germany up 7, England up 7

This keeps going and going.  Yea, Germany’s got Africa for a while, but American/England are retaking from the west while England’s got a couple of Jap islands to re-supply it with cash.  Meanwhile, Germany’s trading in Asia and Japan’s got an IC in India to worry about along with having to reclaim islands.  (UK Purchase could be 5 infantry, 1 IC, plenty to defend the homeland against a Germany that doesn’t know what’s going on with England yet.  By the time they do, it’s too late to stage Op. Sea Lion.)

[ajgundam5]

@Jennifer:

This keeps going and going.  Yea, Germany’s got Africa for a while, but American/England are retaking from the west while England’s got a couple of Jap islands to re-supply it with cash.  Meanwhile, Germany’s trading in Asia and Japan’s got an IC in India to worry about along with having to reclaim islands.  (UK Purchase could be 5 infantry, 1 IC, plenty to defend the homeland against a Germany that doesn’t know what’s going on with England yet.  By the time they do, it’s too late to stage Op. Sea Lion.)

I didn’t know you wanted an IC in India … no I don’t agree with that I thought you were talking about existing forces.

[Infantry Rocks]

Take Borneo AND build an IC in India?  Forget Borneo, I’m taking India on J1.

[Yahoshua]

hmm….I’m witholding my response to this thread but it does bring up some interesting tactics for opening engagements.

[Jennifer]

@Infantry:

Take Borneo AND build an IC in India?  Forget Borneo, I’m taking India on J1.

How, prey tell, would you like to do that against 5 infantry and an AA gun?  Maybe even some Russian armor and figthers, for good measure?

I don’t think that IC is falling for at least 2 or 3 rounds, at best.  Meanwhile, you have a british fleet that can move to be with the American fleet making your attacks on them very costly and pointless. (Why kill American Trannies when you have British ones that can die first?)

[Guest]

Again, with THAT level of comitment in Asia, Germany is all over Russia like diaper rash… buildiing in Caucuses, etc.

And to get ARM to India right away, Russia has to forego Ukraine on R1…
That reduces Russian income, and leaves Germany with some nice bonus forces… probably enough to kill the WRS if they want to, leaving Russia virtually defensless…