No you see, I personally believe in a system where the INDIVIDUAL is responsible for their own actions.
They can;t do bad things but be “saved” and end up in heaven. They can;t claim that Satan made them do it. They can;t claim that it was original sin. They can’t do penance and be forgiven. They can;t blame God for what they are.
My arguments above were to show that Christianity provides for a complete LACK of personal responsibility instead of encouraging personal responsibility (and it was even WORSE before Martin Luther’s heresy).
I expect every person to be judge for who and what they ARE. Judge each by their actions and deeds. NOT by the term they self-assign to describe their religion, not by how they adhere to that religion, and certainly not by whether or not they are saved, born again, or whatever.
Actually it says to not judge others.
I have to argue that non-christian religion (the group I will put you in) provides a larger LACK of personal responsibility, they do what they want and don’t care.
Switch:
As mother I KNOW my 3 year old is going to talk back to me and throw a temper tantrum when he doesn’t get his way. Should I give him the spanking pre-emptively because I know it iis going to happen, or should I wait for it to happen, then punish him?
The same is true with God. He knows who will fall in line and who will be defiant to the end. But he is going to wait until we actually perform our actions so we know that we deserve the consequences of our actions.
All religious people go to heaven, you dont even have to be religious just good. There are tribes in the Amazon that still dont really have contact with the outside world. All they have to do is be good how they know to be good and their fine in the afterlife. You dont have to be a christian to make it to heaven. Christians are just comfortable knowing jesus at the time of their passing. I believe everyone good and bad meets jesus, has a chance to repent, they take their final choice, most of them choosing heaven, and only the ones who want nothing to do with god, or wont accept being wrong will choose hell. Just be willing to submit yourself to a higher authority whom you might not of agreed with on this earth, when you pass to the next.
Switch, god gives us free will and knows our future. This ones hard to explain. The “plan” of God is to put us where we do our job for good or bad to the rest of the world. We are fully free to make our decisions, but God knows when and where we should be. When terrible things happen, its still not Gods’ fault, bad things have to happen to someone to make balance in the world. Can you imagine a world where nothing terrible happens to people. We would loose a whole aspect of life that is neccesary to complete us. And also that would make us a little less free as humans. Humans need to be free to do terrible things to other humans. You may ask then, “why would God put some guy in some place to do harm to someone i know. If god knew it was going to happen, its his fault that it did happen.” Once again, terrible things have to happen to someone. what should something terrible have happened to someone else and not you, its not up to us. We learn from terrible things, its just life and even bad things are part of the plan. When we pass, we reach instant enlightenment, see the goodness of life and God, and follow it.
I don’t think all religious people go to heaven.
“The only way to the Father is through me.” Jesus.
That pretty much says that the only way to heaven, since the birth of Christ, is to get baptized in him. Everyone else isn’t going to heaven. At least, according to the book. I don’t get to make that decision, I’d let my hard earned prejudices inflict themselves upon my decisions and no politician in the history of the planet, including Solomon and David would get to go to Heaven. :P
It is true EVERYBODY will meet JESUS one day.
this is the ultimate question:
will you meet him as he is your savior?
or are you going to meet him and he will be your judge?
cause if you meet him in the end and you don’t know him as your savior don’t matter how good you were, You can’t buy your way into heaven. you totally screwed then.
Thats basically what i was trying to say. But the other religions can ask who are you. Jesus will tell them he is their redeemer, they will ask to be redeemed, end of story. Unless they dont want to be redeemed.
Thats basically what i was trying to say. But the other religions can ask who are you. Jesus will tell them he is their redeemer, they will ask to be redeemed, end of story. Unless they dont want to be redeemed.
I don’t think it will happen that way. Just personal opinion. After all, judgement day is God’s call, not mine. But personally, I think that if you are not wearing the garments of Jesus and you did not follow the old laws before he came, then you are pretty well in a pickle that you cannot get out of.
ahhh
I think you mean Paul…
Actually no, I just looked it up, I mean Cornelius. And it is from Acts 10
Actually it says to not judge others.
I have to argue that non-christian religion (the group I will put you in) provides a larger LACK of personal responsibility, they do what they want and don’t care.
Then why oh why are the prisons filled with Born Agains?
Time for another alegorical joke…
http://www.christianforums.com/t85639
(notice not a PAGAN website this time…)
A pagan dies and finds himself in front of the Pearly Gates. He says to Saint Peter, “Uh, I’m not supposed to be here. Us pagans go to the Summerland when we die, y’know.” Saint Peter sighs and says, “Well, son, the Summerland is currently closed for renovations. I know you’ve led a good life and followed the ‘do-unto-others’ rule and whatnot, but we just can’t take pagans into Heaven. I’m sorry, but you’ll have to go to Hell.”
Well, our pagan friend is understandably upset, but he’s a roll-with-the-punches kinda guy. He asks Saint Pete how to get to Hell, and good ol’ Saint Pete tells him to follow the road off to the left that slopes downward.
After a pleasant walk, he arrives in a huge green field dotted with trees and flowers and happy people wandering about. He walks over to a fella wearing a red shirt and says, “Um, sorry to bother you, but I could use some help here. See, I’m supposed to go to Hell because I’m a pagan–”
“Yeah, I know,” says red-shirt-wearing-man. “Welcome to Hell. I’m Satan.”
“I thought hell was supposed to be all fiery and painful and stuff like that. What gives?”
“Oh, you were misinformed by the publicity department. Gotta keep up that negative PR or God comes down and gives me all kinds of grief. Hell’s actually not a bad place.”
The pagan is flabbergasted and just stands there, staring at Satan. As he’s trying to get his brain back in order, a huge rip opens up in the sky and a large crowd of screaming, crying people proceeds to fall into the gaping hole that’s opened up beneath them. The hole is belching flames and sulfur and all that nastiness. The poor pagan watches this and says, “Satan, what’s going on over there? Who are those people?”
“Oh, them? They’re Christians. They wouldn’t have it any other way.”
@ncscswitch:
Actually it says to not judge others.
I have to argue that non-christian religion (the group I will put you in) provides a larger LACK of personal responsibility, they do what they want and don’t care.
Then why oh why are the prisons filled with Born Agains?
Because many, if not most of them, have only turned to Christ after they got locked up.
Rob.
What is joy without some misery you’ve experieced. There must always be a balance that is maintained. Truly its the ying and yang.
As I get older, I believe in this more and more. Both must exist to reference each other. But you don’t need God, Christianity, Heaven or Hell to acknowledge this, just as it’s possible to have morals without religion.
B) Darwinism/Evolution would lead you to believe that the weak and infirm should be killed so they cannot reproduce and thus strengthen the gene pool of your species. Christianity, on the other hand, teaches you to take care of your neighbor so that all might be strong.
Hmm, I can murder the helpless so that there’s more resources for the strong, or I can help everyone that needs it….hard choice, but I think I’m gunna go with the moral high ground not the ethical low ground here.
If that’s your take on Evolution, you grossly misrepresent it.
I don’t think all religious people go to heaven.
Perhaps not, they have other options: Valhalla, waiting for Ragnarok; reincarnation in order to progress up the caste system; the realms of the 9 Golden Springs; led by Anubis to Duat for their hearts to be judged, and many more.
I honestly don’t think there are other options, Jerm. I only see two options for the after-life:
1) You go to heaven and live your days in bliss worshipping God.
2) You go to hell and live your days in torment because you realize that God no longer loves you.
Also, I’d like to point out that hell is a state of being without God. Not a firey pit (though there is one there and the great Satan (Lucifer the beast) will be bound in it.) and Heaven is merely being loved by God and included in his kingdom.
I honestly don’t think there are other options, Jerm. I only see two options for the after-life:
1) You go to heaven and live your days in bliss worshipping God.
2) You go to hell and live your days in torment because you realize that God no longer loves you.
And that my friend is the sign of a closed mind. Everyone else be damned, I have the one true and ONLY way.
Also, that second option above is in direct contradiction to Christian principles. I leave it to you to figure out why it is not consistent with Christianity (darn shame when the Pagan knows more about Christianity than half of the Christians).
@ncscswitch:
I honestly don’t think there are other options, Jerm. I only see two options for the after-life:
1) You go to heaven and live your days in bliss worshipping God.
2) You go to hell and live your days in torment because you realize that God no longer loves you.
And that my friend is the sign of a closed mind. Everyone else be damned, I have the one true and ONLY way.
Also, that second option above is in direct contradiction to Christian principles. I leave it to you to figure out why it is not consistent with Christianity (darn shame when the Pagan knows more about Christianity than half of the Christians).
In that regard, yes. I have a very closed mind. Jesus specifically said no one can approach the Father except through him. So, to me, that means you cannot go to heaven unless you accept Jesus as savior. But then again, as I also said, I’m not the one making the decisions. Maybe God has different rules for different religions.
And the second option is a contradiction of christian principles, but it’s not christians making the choice. Right now God loves everyone and all love is a reflection of God’s love. Later, when some have proved they want no part of God, God will remove his love from them and they will be in torment for there will be no love amoungst them. That’s just the way I view it based on what’s written in the NIV and King James.
it does say the non-believers will be cast down into “hell” “lake of fire” constanly tourmented yes.
I know I heard this saying soomewhere before:
No rest for the Wicked (probably a magic the gathering card no doubt I have 10,000 + cards)
@ncscswitch:
Also, that second option above is in direct contradiction to Christian principles. I leave it to you to figure out why it is not consistent with Christianity…
Oh, I beg to differ. It’s in direct correllation thereof.
The whole point of Christianity, indeed, the whole point of Jesus’s life, was and is to spread God’s message that those who sin in the eyes of God had better repent of their sins and get right with God or they will be punished in the end. Period.
Yes, Jesus spoke much and often about forgiveness. It’s the central theme of His message. There is and will be forgiveness for ALL who seek it, free for the taking……but there will be NO forgiveness without repentance. Without forgiveness, a soul is stained with sin and cannot enter into the presence of God. Therefore, that sin-stained soul has only one other place to go…cast out from God’s presence forever. “Depart from me; I never knew you.” (Matthew 7:23) Jesus came for two reasons: 1) to pay for the sins of the world with His own blood, which is pure. 2) to spread the word of His father God that the Age of Grace (in which we live) is coming to a close and the time in which sinners may still find forgiveness is growing short. The Lord comes right out and tells us that when the limit of sin in this world has been reached (and only He knows when this will be), he will pull the plug on forgiveness and those who could not be bothered to ask for what is freely offered will be SOL. Now you may not like that, and they certainly won’t like it when they’re told to depart forever, but that’s the way it is. God is like a parent, the ultimate parent. Parents set rules for their children to follow, and a good parent enforces those rules. Children may not like the rules (I know I didn’t) but they must obey or be punished. It’s as simple as that. LIke I said, it’s the entire basis for Jesus’s message and the whole point of the New Testament. You say it’s too black and white….That’s right, it is. Would you respect a god who dealt in gray-areas? No, because you’d think he was wishy-washy and you’d also think the interpretation and enforcement of his rules would be unfair and situational. God makes it perfectly clear so that there can be no mistaking what He meant when the end comes. He sent His Son Jesus to be the final arbeiter of right and wrong, black and white, blessed and damned. You are either cleansed of your sins by His freely offered blood, or you are not. That’s Christianity’s theme and it’s principle principle, if you will.
Rob.
OK Christians, you need to edit some of what you believe and many many many more will become followers and enjoy peace of mind. Here’s an example!
person A- Almost flawless and generates virtually no harm to theirself or others. Never hears of Jesus. Enjoys peace of mind on earth due to almost flawless nature. Not much to repent of. Could possibly be a little more patient to improve.
person B- very flawed person who finds “jesus” and repents of his wrongdoings and finally enjoys peace of mind just like person A.
According to christians, person A is doomed to eternal hell by a god that LOVES them. Person B gets eternal bliss. Person A is doing what god wanted all along & person B has changed his ways.
In my way of thinking, heaven & hell is here on earth!
PS- I appreciate it when you religious people make sense! Because I don’t believe everything that I read or am told. I don’t care what book it comes from. MAKE SENSE!!!
Maddog actually touched on the error that I was refering to from Jens post.
Does that help any of you Christians out there dig through your Sunday School or Catechism classes to find the error that I was refering to?
It is a core tenent of Christianity that Jen’s statement is in direct violation of. It should not be that hard to figure out…
Unless you have been given a less than complete version of Christianity by the people who have editted it for you…
