Evolution Poll

[Guest]

@NoMercy:

who was this Pagan Centurion you speak of?

If memory serves, it was on the road to Damascus.

[Guest]

@Jennifer:

The problem, Switch, is you are trying to say that because God created a system where you can committ evil, then you should be absolved of your evil because it wasn’t your fault.

That’s not true.  God set up a system allowing all humans to choose their own path between good and evil.  However, just as with raising children on the prime material plane of existance, people can choose to break the rules.  If you choose to break the rules, then you get punished.

No I am saying that if he is all powerful and all knowing, then he knew exactly who would end up where.  If we break the rules it is because he decided we should and set the system up so that we indeed WOULD.

I also said that I do NOT believe in that type of system.  Nor do I believe in a single omnipotent omnipresent omniscient divine entity.

But if God did indeed exist as an omnipotent omnipresent omniscient divine entity, then yes, no one would be responsible for their actions, good or bad, because each would only be a puppet in a cast of billions playing out the roll detemined for them by that omnipotent omnipresent omniscient divine entity.  THAT was my point.

[NoMercy]

ahhh

I think you mean Paul… one of the greatest missionarys there was.

I think you have the story messed up on him.

when he was walking there he was at the time one who of them people who was killing all the christians then god talked to him when he was on his way there and HE realized he was doing wrong and accepted God and wanted to do God’s will whatever was in store for him.

he was not accepted into heaven for his honor and stuff, he changed his ways and believed.

And yes Switich… HE KNOWS Exactly where your going… you still have time to decide…
he decided yes since we have knowledge of good and bad that we should choose to do between good and bad then since we know the difference.

he clearly tells you of the benefits and the dis-benefits of that important choice of where you spend eternity.

yes you have made it perfectly clear you do not believe, infact I knew right off anyway regardless of you saying that or not.

[Guest]

If I believed in that system, I would have a concern.

Since I do not…

[NoMercy]

you’re only concern seems to be to hold responsible for all the bad choices going on in the world. and that letting us choose between bad and good.

if the world was perfect, we wouldn’t be talking this over. There would be no need to be saved, we would already be in Heaven/paradise.

in fact the last book in the bible revelation talks about the end times, which also seem to be approaching.

there is a Heaven and a Hell… and that is why you have the liberty to choose. you are choosing where you go.

[Guest]

No you see, I personally believe in a system where the INDIVIDUAL is responsible for their own actions.

They can;t do bad things but be “saved” and end up in heaven.  They can;t claim that Satan made them do it.  They can;t claim that it was original sin.  They can’t do penance and be forgiven.  They can;t blame God for what they are.

My arguments above were to show that Christianity provides for a complete LACK of personal responsibility instead of encouraging personal responsibility (and it was even WORSE before Martin Luther’s heresy).

I expect every person to be judge for who and what they ARE. Judge each by their actions and deeds.  NOT by the term they self-assign to describe their religion, not by how they adhere to that religion, and certainly not by whether or not they are saved, born again, or whatever.

[NoMercy]

Actually it says to not judge others.

I have to argue that non-christian religion (the group I will put you in) provides a larger LACK of personal responsibility, they do what they want and don’t care.

[Jennifer]

Switch:

As  mother I KNOW my 3 year old is going to talk back to me and throw a temper tantrum when he doesn’t get his way.  Should I give him the spanking pre-emptively because I know it iis going to happen, or should I wait for it to happen, then punish him?

The same is true with God.  He knows who will fall in line and who will be defiant to the end.  But he is going to wait until we actually perform our actions so we know that we deserve the consequences of our actions.

[balungaloaf]

All religious people go to heaven, you dont even have to be religious just good.  There are tribes in the Amazon that still dont really have contact with the outside world.  All they have to do is be good how they know to be good and their fine in the afterlife.  You dont have to be a christian to make it to heaven.  Christians are just comfortable knowing jesus at the time of their passing.  I believe everyone good and bad meets jesus, has a chance to repent, they take their final choice, most of them choosing heaven, and only the ones who want nothing to do with god, or wont accept being wrong will choose hell.  Just be willing to submit yourself to a higher authority whom you might not of agreed with on this earth, when you pass to the next.

Switch, god gives us free will and knows our future.  This ones hard to explain.  The “plan” of God is to put us where we do our job for good or bad to the rest of the world.  We are fully free to make our decisions, but God knows when and where we should be.  When terrible things happen, its still not Gods’ fault, bad things have to happen to someone to make balance in the world.  Can you imagine a world where nothing terrible happens to people.  We would loose a whole aspect of life that is neccesary to complete us.  And also that would make us a little less free as humans.  Humans need to be free to do terrible things to other humans.  You may ask then, “why would God put some guy in some place to do harm to someone i know.  If god knew it was going to happen, its his fault that it did happen.”  Once again, terrible things have to happen to someone. what should something terrible have happened to someone else and not you, its not up to us.  We learn from terrible things, its just life and even bad things are part of the plan.    When we pass, we reach instant enlightenment, see the goodness of life and God, and follow it.

[Jennifer]

I don’t think all religious people go to heaven.

“The only way to the Father is through me.”  Jesus.

That pretty much says that the only way to heaven, since the birth of Christ, is to get baptized in him.  Everyone else isn’t going to heaven.  At least, according to the book.  I don’t get to make that decision, I’d let my hard earned prejudices inflict themselves upon my decisions and no politician in the history of the planet, including Solomon and David would get to go to Heaven. :P

[NoMercy]

It is true EVERYBODY will meet JESUS one day.

this is the ultimate question:

will you meet him as he is your savior?
or are you going to meet him and he will be your judge?

cause if you meet him in the end and you don’t know him as your savior don’t matter how good you were, You can’t buy your way into heaven. you totally screwed then.

[balungaloaf]

Thats basically what i was trying to say.  But the other religions can ask who are you.  Jesus will tell them he is their redeemer, they will ask to be redeemed, end of story.  Unless they dont want to be redeemed.

[Jennifer]

@balungaloaf:

Thats basically what i was trying to say.  But the other religions can ask who are you.  Jesus will tell them he is their redeemer, they will ask to be redeemed, end of story.  Unless they dont want to be redeemed.

I don’t think it will happen that way.  Just personal opinion.  After all, judgement day is God’s call, not mine.  But personally, I think that if you are not wearing the garments of Jesus and you did not follow the old laws before he came, then you are pretty well in a pickle that you cannot get out of.

[Guest]

@NoMercy:

ahhh

I think you mean Paul…

Actually no, I just looked it up, I mean Cornelius.  And it is from Acts 10

[Guest]

@NoMercy:

Actually it says to not judge others.

I have to argue that non-christian religion (the group I will put you in) provides a larger LACK of personal responsibility, they do what they want and don’t care.

Then why oh why are the prisons filled with Born Agains?

[Guest]

Time for another alegorical joke…
http://www.christianforums.com/t85639

(notice not a PAGAN website this time…)

A pagan dies and finds himself in front of the Pearly Gates. He says to Saint Peter, “Uh, I’m not supposed to be here. Us pagans go to the Summerland when we die, y’know.” Saint Peter sighs and says, “Well, son, the Summerland is currently closed for renovations. I know you’ve led a good life and followed the ‘do-unto-others’ rule and whatnot, but we just can’t take pagans into Heaven. I’m sorry, but you’ll have to go to Hell.”

Well, our pagan friend is understandably upset, but he’s a roll-with-the-punches kinda guy. He asks Saint Pete how to get to Hell, and good ol’ Saint Pete tells him to follow the road off to the left that slopes downward.

After a pleasant walk, he arrives in a huge green field dotted with trees and flowers and happy people wandering about. He walks over to a fella wearing a red shirt and says, “Um, sorry to bother you, but I could use some help here. See, I’m supposed to go to Hell because I’m a pagan–”
“Yeah, I know,” says red-shirt-wearing-man. “Welcome to Hell. I’m Satan.”
“I thought hell was supposed to be all fiery and painful and stuff like that. What gives?”
“Oh, you were misinformed by the publicity department. Gotta keep up that negative PR or God comes down and gives me all kinds of grief. Hell’s actually not a bad place.”
The pagan is flabbergasted and just stands there, staring at Satan. As he’s trying to get his brain back in order, a huge rip opens up in the sky and a large crowd of screaming, crying people proceeds to fall into the gaping hole that’s opened up beneath them. The hole is belching flames and sulfur and all that nastiness. The poor pagan watches this and says, “Satan, what’s going on over there? Who are those people?”

“Oh, them? They’re Christians. They wouldn’t have it any other way.”

[MauserBob]

@ncscswitch:

@NoMercy:

Actually it says to not judge others.

I have to argue that non-christian religion (the group I will put you in) provides a larger LACK of personal responsibility, they do what they want and don’t care.

Then why oh why are the prisons filled with Born Agains?

Because many, if not most of them, have only turned to Christ after they got locked up.

Rob.

[Jermofoot]

@balungaloaf:

What is joy without some misery you’ve experieced.  There must always be a balance that is maintained.  Truly its the ying and yang.

As I get older, I believe in this more and more.  Both must exist to reference each other.  But you don’t need God, Christianity, Heaven or Hell to acknowledge this, just as it’s possible to have morals without religion.

@Jennifer:

B)  Darwinism/Evolution would lead you to believe that the weak and infirm should be killed so they cannot reproduce and thus strengthen the gene pool of your species.  Christianity, on the other hand, teaches you to take care of your neighbor so that all might be strong.

Hmm, I can murder the helpless so that there’s more resources for the strong, or I can help everyone that needs it….hard choice, but I think I’m gunna go with the moral high ground not the ethical low ground here.

If that’s your take on Evolution, you grossly misrepresent it.

@Jennifer:

I don’t think all religious people go to heaven.

Perhaps not, they have other options: Valhalla, waiting for Ragnarok; reincarnation in order to progress up the caste system; the realms of the 9 Golden Springs;  led by Anubis to Duat for their hearts to be judged, and many more.

[Jennifer]

I honestly don’t think there are other options, Jerm.  I only see two options for the after-life:

1)  You go to heaven and live your days in bliss worshipping God.

2)  You go to hell and live your days in torment because you realize that God no longer loves you.

Also, I’d like to point out that hell is a state of being without God.  Not a firey pit (though there is one there and the great Satan (Lucifer the beast) will be bound in it.)  and Heaven is merely being loved by God and included in his kingdom.

[Guest]

@Jennifer:

I honestly don’t think there are other options, Jerm.  I only see two options for the after-life:

1)  You go to heaven and live your days in bliss worshipping God.

2)  You go to hell and live your days in torment because you realize that God no longer loves you.

And that my friend is the sign of a closed mind.  Everyone else be damned, I have the one true and ONLY way.

Also, that second option above is in direct contradiction to Christian principles.  I leave it to you to figure out why it is not consistent with Christianity (darn shame when the Pagan knows more about Christianity than half of the Christians).