Another off the wall, unproven, untested idea

[Jennifer]

The idea of this maneuver is to temporarily tie up japanese naval forces and prevent serious gains into Asia for at least two rounds.  After then, a strategic withdrawel should be put into place.

Russia 1:

Buy 4 Infantry, 3 Artillery

Combat Movements:

10 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 4 Armor, 1 Fighter to West Russia (3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Armor
*  2 Infantry, 1 Fighter from Karelia to West Russia
*  3 Infantry, 1 Armor from Archangelsk to West Russia
*  3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 2 Armor from Russia to West Russia
*  2 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Armor from Caucasus to West Russia

Non-Combat Movements:

1 Fighter from Russia to Buryatia SSR
2 Infantry from Soviet Far East to Buryatia SSR
2 Infantry from Yakut to Buryatia SSR
2 Infantry from Evenki National Okrug to Russia
2 Infantry from Kazakh SSR to Sinkiang
2 Infantry from Novosibirsk to Sinkiang
1 Submarine from Sea Zone 4 to Sea Zone 2

United Kingdom 1

Buy Carrier, Transport, 2 Infantry

Combat Moves:

Transport, Destroyer, Fighter from Sea Zone 35 to Sea Zone 59
Transport, Submarine from Sea Zone 40 to Sea Zone 46

Non-Combat Moves:

Fighter from Sea Zone 59 to Buryatia SSR
Bomber from United Kingdom to Sinkiang
Infantry from Persia to India
Infantry from Trans-Jordan to Persia

USA 1:

Buy Carrier, 2 Transports, 2 Armor

Combat Moves:

Bomber from Eastern United States to Sea Zone 60 (if only Transports)

Non-Combat Moves:

If no transports/protect transports - Bomber from Eastern United States to Buryatia SSR
2 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Armor (2 transports) to Sea Zone 8 - off load into United Kingdom
1 Destroyer from Sea Zone 10 to Sea Zone 8
1 Destroyer from Sea Zone 20 to Sea Zone 10
1 Battleship, 1 Transport from Sea Zone 55 to Sea Zone 20
2 Infantry from Western United States to Western Canada
2 Infantry from Central United States to Western Canada

New Naval Units in Sea Zone 10
New Land Units in Western United States

Okay, critique away.  there’s GOTTA be tons of holes in this, otherwise we’d see it more often.

[trihero]

Russia 1:

Buy 4 Infantry, 3 Artillery

Yes! That’s my girl. I love that build.

The only thing that comes immediately to mind is that you’re letting Germany get some nice temporary gains in Africa, with no counter from India. Otherwise it is fairly annoying to deal with as Japan. If China is attacked en force, then likely Manchuria and/or Indochina will fall to a wall of infantry and airforce from either side  :wink:

I’d just take it real nice and slow with Japan. Start with a 3 tran 2 inf build. I may just skip Harbor entirely if I lost the sub in Solomon Islands, or maybe just do it real light with a destroyer/carrier/fighter/bomber. I’d kill the little fleet off of Kwangtung with the fleet from East Indies, keep the battleship in SZ61 with the transports. Past that, things are likely very ugly in the short term. I’d still attack China with all infantry within range and 2 fighters, and I’d land 1 inf 1 arm from Japan into Manchuria and land 5 fighters there in noncombat in order to dissuade the Russians from attacking there. Indochina will just have to burn in the short term (probably retake with China troops on J2).

J2 would depend on how things were going. If the Russians stay in Buryatia, time to rip them a new one, and retake Indochina from the UK using the China troops. I’d rather the US regain China for a turn or 2 rather than let the other Allies gain a 3 IPC territory. If the Russians retreated from Buryatia, then I’d just take it with one unit while sending a large force into Indochina to take India soon enough.

[Jennifer]

That’s what I was thinking, for Japan.  Bring those big old Battleboats home to the motherland, protect those transports until you can hit Bury with enough force to take it (in which case Russia and Air force would pull back anyway) and then move forward.

However, look at the concession you just made:

America has +1 Fighter, +1 Carrier +1 Submarine.  that’s +34 IPC in units which means they can make more transports earlier in the game to use in Europe.

And if you do hit Pearl, you pretty much have to forgo building transports on Japan 1.  I think.

(And yea, that’s a pretty safe Russian build.  Sometimes I even just go 8 infantry…though, with the ratio at 24 Infantry : 2 Artillery, it’s not like buying 3 artillery in round 1 is over balancing your infantry/artillery ratio. :)  )

[trihero]

I’d probably hit Pearl.

In the worst case scenario, 33% of the time (solomon sub died), I’d send a force of 1 sub 1 car 1 bomb 1 fig. 73% of winning. I could increase that margin if all I care about is killing the sub and carrier, not the fighter, which I think is reasonable. I’m more scared of the carrier being used immediately to go island hopping than I am about the fighter.

In the other scenario, 66% of the time, I’d have an extra sub to send to Pearl, pushing it up to 93% of winning.

Let’s just keep it simple and say I want to win in Pearl, not just knock out the sub/car. In that case, we can weigh the percentages to come up with a total average expected success rate:

93% of 66% + 73% of 33% = ~85%. So 85% of games will see the Pearl Harbor fleet dead, averaging the cases where the Jap sub lives and where it dies.

If I may suggest, perhaps the UK fighter should really be used to do the Pearl Harbor reinforcement (attack solomons then reinforce the Pearl fleet0. The UK fighter is not needed in either Kwangtung nor in Buryatia. The Kwang transport will fall a vast amount of the time vs 1 dest/car/tran, and Buryatia is secure from any reasonable J1 assault with the Russian fig there.

This pushes your odds to 66% of killing the Solomon Sub, and 100% reinforcement of Pearl with a fighter. That makes attacking Pearl a serious problem for the Japanese. It could still be done, but either the battleship from SZ60 would have to be sent or you would have to accept some moderate fighter losses after sending all available airforce in. Either of those cases would make it extremely difficult if not impossible to either build transports anywhere around Japan, or be able to counter in the land as effectively minus the fighters.

[Aretaku]

OK, here would be my natural response, Germany doesn’t know what Britains going to do, and Japan likewise with America.

Germany 1

Build 1 AC, 8 inf

Combat

2 inf, 1 fig to Karelia
(Inf from NOR, Fig from Eastern)
Norway always falls, so I might as well get Karelia and secure the Russian front…the Fig lands on my new Carrier

1 Inf, 1 Arm, 2 Fig (Balkans & Ukraine), 1 Bom to Egypt (planes landing in Libya)
(I’m willing to lose the bomber, or even a fighter to win this, since I always assume the Ukraine fig is dead anyways, I’m willing to risk it to close the canal, since I’m leaving the UK destroyer alive

1 sub, 3 fig (Western, Germany, Norway) to SZ 13
A much riskier fight, and I might lose another Fighter, but this battleship MUST die, it cannot be allowed to fight alongside the destroyer left alive in SZ 15. One of the fighters moves to the Carrier, any left alive after that land in Western Europe

4 Arm (1 UKR, 1 SEU, 1 EEU, 1 BAL) 4 inf (UKR, SEU), 1 Art (UKR), 1 BB shot to Caucausus

Only four Russian units here, and it’s a pretty good shot that I take it only losing 1 infantry. If Russia wants his factory back, he must use a significant portion of his W Russia stack to do so, and it will prevent any moves into Karelia, Belo, or Ukraine that I cannot beat back on G2…the Carrier I’m building helps secure the northern flank, while my planes in Libya can help in Ukraine or Belo.

NON-Combat

German armor and Inf to Eastern Europe
W. Europe armor to Eastern Europe
S. Europe Inf and Art to Western Europe
2 Inf from Belo to Eastern
2 Inf from Balkans to Eastern
Algerian Forces to Libya

Build 6 inf Germany, 2 inf Southern…Carrier in the Baltic

Collect $46  :-D

…since Britain made no attempt on Egypt, I have an armor there to start draining UK money (I lost planes first)…what he did with the British Destoyer, I’m not sure, probably killed the Sub in SZ13 if it managed to survive, or else plant it off of Italy to interfere with German counters against an US landing Algeria (which isn’t supposed to happen US1, according to your plan).

My force in Caucasus will be killed, but it will get it’s licks in, and stall the Russians long enough for me to consolidae my KAR/BELO/UKR line. Coupled with Egypt, It might even draw Britains attention if he’s nervous about India. Defensively I’m pretty safe in the Atlantic, and ready to start defending against Allied landings in Round 2.

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Japan 1

Buy: 1 AC, 1 Tran, 2 inf

Combat

Pearl Harbor (1 bb, 1 AC, 1 Dest, 2 figs (one from Japan), 1 sub* (could have submerged, or could have killed the British Tran and Sub, who’s to say?)

East Indies fleet to UK Fleet in SZ 59

Bomber from Japan to UK ships in SZ 46, landing in Solomons
With luck, my Sub got a hit, or even survived (in which case he can aid in this attack)
If the sub managed to kill the UK ships when they attacked him, or if they retreated, the Bomber can aid at Pearl, landing in Japan

China with 5 inf, 2 figs (leaving one man in FIC and MANCH) - Figs landing on the new carrier.

NON-Combat

None  :-P

Build ships in SZ 61 - My whole fleet can still combine in SZ 60 next turn, or I can counter a Russian move into Manchuria. I’m not worried about the Indian infantry, even with a Fig and a Bomber nearby, they won’t be lasting long. I’m not upset at all about having 3 fully loaded Carriers either.  :-D

Assuming I leave 1 inf in China, I can hit Manchuria with 3 or 4 inf an artillery, an armor, plus a BB shot,six fighters and a bomber (landing in KWANG). Stay in Bury and you only have 2 inf, but can add another BB shot and my bomber can land in Japan. Neither of these attacks are necessary, and Bury risks fighters, but they aren’t moving foward, so there is no real threat.

Probably buying 3 Trannies and Inf on J2, and an IC may follow on J3 depending on the situation.

---

In my mind, all this does is force Japan to build another Capital ship early, slowing him down by only one turn. If my plan were to be successful in Round 1 in each attack (not likely, but the odds aren’t bad), UK will be hurting for money by UK4, America will be at risk from an even larger Jap fleet, and Russia will have been given only 1 round of breathing room in the east.

Not a bad move, but not really any more effective at it’s purpose (slowing down Japan), than other options that don’t tie up so much Allied AF in Bury.

Wouldn’t the U.S. bomber be better off in W. Canada than Bury?

As I noted, nothing stops Japan from stomping Manch on J2 (only Russian inf there, as I will attack no matter what the odds if Britain leaves a fighter and a bomber there), or Bury on J3…so the northern prong is open. The U.S. didn’t build an IC in Sinkang, so the middle prong is open. And I have enough fleet to defend along the southern prong and prepare for an FIC or Kwang IC on J3.

A one round delay is a one round delay…but I don’t think it’s worth it.  :|

[Guest]

Aretaku,

I would agree, in that set-up, you just have to take Caucuses.  $4, no Russian production outside of Moscow for R2…  You just can’t pass that up.

Yes, Russia will re-take it, probably pretty heavy.  But you certainly have gotten their attention and let them know that if they send too much east, they are in deep kimchee.

The further German benefit is that, since no build in Caucuses on R2, depending on your G1 NCM’s, you have a chance at possibly taking it again on G2 since Russia can reinforce the units there with a build.  You just make their own IC a meat grinder for Russian forces.

And Goddess Forbid of Russia actually lets Germany BUILD there…  :-D

As for the Pacific…
You MIGHT slow Japan down a bit.  But as Japan I can still clear Pearl, still clear SZ59, and still drop TRN’s that are protected from the AF that can reach.  So I still am able to start landing forces on J2.  I may lose more of them than normal in the landings.  But those are just forces that I kill now instead of killing later in Yakut or Novo.  And if Germany is pressign hard in the west around Caucuses, then Russia won’t be sending reinforcements east.  As soon as I have my beachhead as Japan, there is nothing between my forces and Moscow except empty terrain…

[trihero]

I don’t agree with leaving one inf in Manch/Indochina, Aretaku. That just makes it nearly certain that you will lose the inf there to an attack. I’d rather keep the inf in a bigger pile somewhere else so I can retake Indochina at lower cost.

[Jennifer]

As Russia I would expect you to hit Caucasus.  I’d be disappointed if you did not.  However, now I can dump Russians there and secure both W. Russia and Caucasus in strength, or better, just leave a blitz blocker in W. Russia and put the entire western front army in Caucasus.  Now we start a dance of W. Russia/Caucasus trading while both sides build up.

Meanwhile, I do like the idea of Russian fighter to India on round 1.  On round 2 you’d have to pull it back to Europe though.  And I’d be worried about loosing it to a Japanese attack.

Remember, we’re stalling the Japanese, not going KJF.  Also, if I can even get 1 extra fighter out of Hawaii I didn’t have before, it’s worth the maneuver.  No allied forces are pulled out of position except a US Bomber, which isn’t exactly a horrible loss to the allies.  Meanwhile, you’ve altered the entire first two rounds of Japanese movements, forced them to use a new strategy instead of the old tried and proven, probably ended up with at least 1 extra unit in Hawaii, if not the entire fleet.  (You attack light, I make the OOL, Carrier, Submarine, Fighter and hope you only get 1 hit so I can retreat the submarine on the second phase of combat.)

[Mr.Bo]

If I may suggest, perhaps the UK fighter should really be used to do the Pearl Harbor reinforcement (attack solomons then reinforce the Pearl fleet0. The UK fighter is not needed in either Kwangtung nor in Buryatia. The Kwang transport will fall a vast amount of the time vs 1 dest/car/tran, and Buryatia is secure from any reasonable J1 assault with the Russian fig there

Trihero (or anyone): HOW? I just set up the board (I’m going for my first KJF tomorrow) and I can see no way of getting that FIG all the way to the US AC on UK1…

[Guest]

From the AC in SZ off India…

Move 1:  East Indies SZ
Move 2:  Carolines SZ
Move 3:  Solomons SZ (and attack the SUB there on the way by)
Move 4:  Hawaii SZ to land on US AC.

[Jennifer]

You could put the british fighter on the American carrier, but it’s much more powerful in Buryatia, I think.  Now you have 2 allied fighters and a bomber in Bury to attack lonely transports.  That means Japan has to keep something back to defend them.  Which means less he can move to attack the Pearl fleet, which increases the chances of something escaping the battle unscathed for use in the Atlantic.

After that, you can just move your fighters/bombers towards Germany like normal, and play the stalling game like normal with Russia.  Net effect, Japan’s more psychologically traumatized, America has maybe another unit or two, Germany stepped into a blender in Caucasus. (Follow up attack, 13 Infantry, 5 Artillery, 4 Armor into whatever you left in Caucasus.)

So Germany’s going to take a major hit in West Russia and Caucasus, probably about 3 infantry, 4 armor and 2 artillery.  Followed by a British invasion of Finland forcing the Germans to pull back to reclaim or move slower.

Now Germany’s in a pickle.  Sure, you got 3 infantry in Archangelsk, but Russia has 13, 4 armor and 5 Artillery next to Berlin, along with 15 infantry in Russia to defend against your three.

Or, Germany can pull back, trade W. Russia again.  Then again,if you DO move to Archangel, retaking Cuacsus isn’t hard and hitting Ukraine/Karelia with British and Russian troosp is also very easy to do.

[Mr.Bo]

Thanks Switch.
However, I don’t completely understand.The AC is in SZ 35, next to India. ‘Pearl Harbor’ is 5 SZ away (SZ 52).
So, do you first move the AC to, say, SZ 38 (next to Aus), and are you allowed to move another 3 zones with the FTR, to PH through SZ 45 (the one with the sub)? I thought FTR start their move from an AC, counting from the original SZ the AC is in (so maximum 4 spaces at all times).
However, reading my post again, this is ot possible - combat comes before non-combat, so you can’t attack that sub…
Could you post the necessary steps that have to be done with the FTR, with SZ numbers?  :?

Tnaks in advance…

[Mr.Bo]

Never mind, I figured it out myself. Thanks anyway!!

[Jennifer]

@ShadowHAwk:

@Jennifer:

Meanwhile, I do like the idea of Russian fighter to India on round 1.  On round 2 you’d have to pull it back to Europe though.  And I’d be worried about loosing it to a Japanese attack.

Remember, we’re stalling the Japanese, not going KJF.  Also, if I can even get 1 extra fighter out of Hawaii I didn’t have before, it’s worth the maneuver.  No allied forces are pulled out of position except a US Bomber, which isn’t exactly a horrible loss to the allies.  Meanwhile, you’ve altered the entire first two rounds of Japanese movements, forced them to use a new strategy instead of the old tried and proven, probably ended up with at least 1 extra unit in Hawaii, if not the entire fleet.  (You attack light, I make the OOL, Carrier, Submarine, Fighter and hope you only get 1 hit so I can retreat the submarine on the second phase of combat.)

The fighter is there only turn 1 to prevent capture of india so you can put an IC there and keep japan busy for a few extra turns. With the UK and the USSR fighter and 5 inf on it japan will be nuts if he tries it. And if he tries it chance are that he will lose most of his AF no mather what.
The fighter can attack next turn in caucasus or ukraine again so it is not really lost.

I dunno, I wasn’t planning on building an IC there.  If I build it then I have to defend it.  If I don’t build it, I can do a slow withdrawel from India to prevent loss of units.  (Perhaps even take them into Africa or up through Caucasus)

[Jennifer]

Yes, an Industrial Complex in India will slow Japan because they’re going to go for it with as much as they can.  It’s 15 free IPCs for them, eventually.  Unless you tie up MASSIVE amounts of Allied resources keeping it.  But if you are going to do that, why not just go KJF?

I want to slow the Japanese down, not stop them.  I figure the original plan will force Japan not to make overly aggressive moves in Round 1.  They might forgo Pearl, they might only hit China or walk around Bury and take SFE.  Or they might stock pile FIC/Manch and take China.  I don’t know.

But the odds of them suddenly getting India, China and Bury on Round 1 are history.  They don’t have the resources for it.  Remember, most of their land unit resources are spread out over the islands. (13 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Armor (I don’t count planes as land forces, they’re mixed) or 48 IPCs worth out of 69 IPCs total starting LAND forces.)  Suddenly they are confronted with 12 Infantry plus support craft ( fighters (3) and bombers (2) )

[nooob]

how bout this to slow down japan; r1      6inf, 1 fig in bury.
                                                uk1    sub on sub in salomon(even fight, for 1 rnd then submerge)
                                                          trns to sz west of salomon (new guniea i think)
                                                          ac, des, fig to kill tranny off kwangtung( fighter land in bury)
                                                          tranny to block east indies fleet in boreo(or philipienes which ever im not in front of aboard)
                                                          2 figs west can
                                                          bom to sinkiang or west can(different ranges, both spots have advantages)

the purchases will be dependent on need(uk might need a big stack of inf to prevent losing london)                     
                              so jap now has slow down issues( icant wait to hear what is said about this one)