Canned Strats

[Guest]

That is a single battle, and no more of a canned strat than attackign West Russia on R1.

A Canned Strat goes beyond a single opening round battle, and starts to details specific equipment purchases, 3, 4 or 5 turns into the game.  No one can predict that far ahead, not in ADS anyway.

Hell, the cumulative odds over 5 turns of even being able to ATTEMPT a specific move move that far down the line are nearly astronomical, since not only do you have the cumulative variable of about 70 battles by then, but also the cumulative effects of every single unit in NCM.

For example “take Africa” on Turn 5 in that Z42 move on Turn 5… OK, sure, I’ll hit Africa on Turn 5.  But what if the US has been landing there in a North African Dominance strat for the past 5 turns?  Or just a T2 South Africa Interdiction?  And if they are, then hitting Brazil instead is a 1-turn gain of 3 IPC for Japan since the US can turn from SZ12 to SZ18 the next move and obliterate half of the forces you ahve been staging with the past 5 turns.

[trihero]

The CSub papers more complex that you give them credit for, Switch. The Canadian Shield paper talks about a few different variants, and the Baltic paper recommends 2 transports against good players, not 3. You can pick apart one little idea in the overall scheme, but the paper is always talking about the bigger picture and the pros and cons once you’ve seen the sucker punch.

Would it help you to know that CrazyStraw won Gencon by himself just recently? That he used a partial Canadian Shield to beat one guy, and built 8 transports and 1 carrier as Germany as well? Not all the “advanced” players have seen every strategy, and it’s easy as hell to beat on a strategy that is laid out for you all nice and neat instead of an unexpected move in a tournament.

I agree that CSub papers lack full discussions of basic details like the hemming and hawing of deadzones, the various builds and attack as Russia or whatever, etc, but none of their papers are so shallow as to be canned.

[Guest]

They are, by and large, presetned as fairly detailed blueprints.

So he won a Tournament.  So have I.  So he has beat some good players, so have I.

But when your strategy relies on moves and builds 5 turns into the game, THAT is canned, no other way to say it.

[trihero]

Aaaaaand with that we can now be sure to see TriHero at the next GenCon.

:lol: metal bikinis where?  :? :-o :-D

CSub papers are hardly canned. They discuss so many different variants of how things go. The paper would be canned if it said, you must build 3 transports as Germany, and then you will win. But it hardly says that at all. The paper would be canned if it said, you will take the USA for sure. But it doesn’t even say that.

[Guest]

Well heck, I was going to log in again to give you credit for starting a new thread, so I figure I may as well post a real post.

A) Good idea for a new thread.  That’s good moderatin’.

B) Ok, you quote the Canadian Shield paper which says, “The basic move is this”.  Doesn’t that imply immediately that there are other ways to do it as opposed to the move only being a script? Â

More importantly, doesn’t the paper go on to detail many variations of the basic move?  So that’s not a script, that a discussion with a starting description of the basic concept.  It’s weird that you’re trying to split this semantic hair.  Must be the influence of that darn post-modernism…

C) You write “You are not likely to admit error.”  1) Like you are?  I admire your undaunted self-righteousness in the face of evidence to the contrary.  2) In fact, this may be one of the ways we are most different.  In the link Squirecam posted you can see that I give him credit for several points and say that I’m going to go back and work on a couple of concepts.  We were having a good debate (though later on in our history we did get a little raucus.  Heh  :-D).

You, on the other hand, have a track record of starting debates off like a knob.  And I quote: “What this idiot who wrote this paper misses when he advocates the 3 tranny build…” Â

See http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=5719.msg85316#msg85316

I don’t usually push back hard on folks, but when you’re both wrong AND obnoxious it tends to get my dander up.  I tend to try and look for things to give people credit for (evidenced in a vatiety of threads), you tend to look for things to call people idiots.

I guess you must feel like you’re succeeding.

[Jennifer]

Even if they ARE canned strategies and even if you CAN destroy them, they do serve purpose….to make you think.  Do you know how boring this game gets when you can basically predict the first 5 rounds of combat given average dice?  It’s the same thing over and over and over again.  A little variety, even if it doesn’t work, at least adds some flavor to the game!  And who knows, maybe it’s that first guy to build a carrier with Germany or the first guy who orchestrates a masterful conquering of Canada or the first guy to do almost nothing but build infantry with Germany in classic that changes the game forever.

That’s, personally, what I aspire too.  That’s why I come up with some kooky ideas.  If the bounce back seems canned with no real response other hten “infantry stacks are better” I might even try it.

[Guest]

And Jen I do believe that i stated, twice so far in this thread, that those essays are valuable in terms of sparking thought.

What they are nearly useless for though is taking them verbatim and trying them against an experienced player.

That was my initial point (of taking C-Sub with a grain of salt), and remains my consistent point throughout this thread.

[Axis4life]

I would have to say that core concepts are more effective for me.  It is the way I approach the game a country doesn’t have scripted moves but rather responsibilities.  I think that scripted or canned strats don’t factor in bad rolls or your opponents counter measures.  IMHO the only moves that can really be scripted are the R1 moves.  after that the game becomes highly reactionary.  I can’t tell you how many times I have had perfect plans for my next few rounds only to have those plans crushed by an enemy counter measure forcing me back to the drawing board again.  So for me scripts don’t work.

[General_D.Fox]

I definitely think the CSub essays spark thought, and are fairly good for newer players like myself when I first picked up the game.  They give a player food for thought on how to approach the game, and maybe ways to go about coming up with strats of their own.  Sure, once you get better you don’t have to follow everything to a T, but it’s all about ideas and developing your own, with a good kickstart from others,whether it be CSub or from some other source.

[Jennifer]

@ncscswitch:

And Jen I do believe that i stated, twice so far in this thread, that those essays are valuable in terms of sparking thought.

What they are nearly useless for though is taking them verbatim and trying them against an experienced player.

That was my initial point (of taking C-Sub with a grain of salt), and remains my consistent point throughout this thread.

Kay kay, musta forgotten you said it earlier in the thread.  When you’re tracking 400 threads a day, it’s hard to remember every point made in them. :)

[Guest]

Not a problem Jen :-)

Let me sum up a few of my earlier points, in case tehy did not cross over from the original thread, and just so folks understand me…

The C-Sub essays have some good info.  They present ideas that folks may not have considered.  Many of them have some great statisitcal analysis of specific units, and others have some good analysis of specific combat situations you may encounter.  On that last item, it is not so much the specific analysis that is valuable (except of course for the Round 1 analysis, since beyond that too many variables creep in), but HOW to analize that makes them worthwhile.

They are a good jumping off point.

But they are not then end-all and be-all of how to win Axis and Allies.

And, trying to use them as many of them are presented, as a blueprint for what builds and moves to make to achieve victory, is more likely to cause you a lot of grief than it is to be of any real benefit to you or your game play.  Thus, take them with a grain of salt.

[squirecam]

If you are anywhere near Michigan or Ohio, you should play in Crazy’s border battle tournament. I think it is in November.

See who has the better strategy?

Squirecam

[Guest]

I am in north central North Carolina.  That Tournament is about a 20 hour drive from here…

[Jennifer]

What’s 20 hours when immortality is on the line???

[General_D.Fox]

And a chance to disprove/insult/embarrass your opponent and his “canned strats.” :-P

[Jennifer]

I’ll send $2 to your paypal address to see you quash him, any other takers? smile

[Guest]

Sorry folks…

If Crazy Straw wants a run at me, he knows where to find me… right here, on the forum, where everyone can see the moves and watch whichever side will win, with it recorded for all posterity so long as the site exists :-)

Tournament is over in 2 months, so I should have plenty of time then…

[Guest]

@Jennifer:

I’ll send $2 to your paypal address to see you quash him, any other takers? smile

In!  I’ll contribute $2 to that account.

And yes, when he arrives I’ll make sure I have a fresh can of something for him.

:-D

[Guest]

$2 won;t even get me off the Raleigh beltline in traffic in terms of gas.

You want a challenge?

I’ll be finished with the 2-on-2 Tournament in about 2 months (perhaps less…)

You can play me for free right here (well, in the Games part of the forums anyway).

I’ll even move you to the front of the queue…

We’ll use the same rules we have for all of the Tournaments here.

Think you can handle me come late October?  A guy who has been playing Revised for less than a year at that point?  Want to put your strats were your fingers are?  I am willing…

[Guest]

Oh and the rules are pretty easy…

LHTR 1.3
Online Dicey (DAAK, Frood, In-Site)
Blind Bid (handled by DAAK server)
10 VC or surrender
ADS
Moves posted daily  (48 hour default w/o advance notice)
No Tech
No NA’s

Just good, old fashioned, hard core gaming.

An expert like you who won GenCon surely can handle some upstart who has been playing less than a year…  :mrgreen: