XPAD2 Game 21 Dicer's Creed (axis) vs Team GARL (allies+12)

[boldfresh]

@Boldfresh:

i haven’t looked at a map but noncoms made in combat can be taken back whenever because they are illegal, to my understanding.  obviously though, one should just never make them because of the confusion it can cause.

i have no dog in the fight but i will say that noncoms made in the combat move phase are illegal - moves in the combat phase can only be made if attacking or in order to avoid attacking.

[Karl7]

NCMs are per se influenced by the dice, so ergo if a NCM is made out of turn during CM and is influenced by the rolls, it should be changed. The problem here is not that the NCM was influenced by the dice, but that the it was made out of order.

The first order issue here is not “dice influence”, it’s move order.  It was an illegal move.  But as we all know, the fact that it was illegal is pointless because the penalty would be to withdraw/prevent the move and then make the player move it properly on NCM.

Let’s see what Dutchman and Garg say.  Again, if we can’t get agreement then we need a ruling.

The issue here is you need a bright line rule that you can NCM on CM or not.  Otherwise there will be too much second guessing.  I prefer that you can NCM on CM just because it will allow for less errors and the other way–that you are stuck-- is too draconian and in fact not in agreement with “the rules” anyway.

[Gargantua]

Apologies,

It was a misclick/error from when I was in the planning stages of my moves.  I was reviewing some different looks, including a Gibraltar stack, and recalled my navy without seeing that I had moved the sub there separately.  The units including the sub were to move in Non-Combat.  Apologies again for confusion.

If there was technical bearing or a purpose for committing the sub in the Combat Phase to gain any kind of theoretical or optical advantage -  I would agree entirely agree with your position Seth and leave it as is.  But it’s an error.

And to clarify - “Once dice are rolled, it’s openly up to the opposing party to decide what they will allow.” I do stand by this statement, and this is my perspective:"

#1. The movement was technically Illegal, and therefore must be changed.
#2. The movement was an error, thus in my view - The piece had not moved yet.

[dutchmand]

I’m OK with the sub movement, so we will go with it.  I do agree with Seth generally though that if you are moving units in CM you intend them to be permanent, regardless of dice or whether it was “illegal”.  I am very careful when I play TripleA to ALWAYS do only CM during the CM phase.

When I do a walk-in, I take 1 unit always and then move in the rest non-com.  Although not a direct comparison here to the sub movement, if I walk 4 units into Suiyuan on CM, but I only needed to walk in 1 to take it, well tough.  I should be stuck with the 4 I moved in.  But that is different because that is a “legal” combat move.  So, from here  on, let’s try to do only “legal” CM during the CM phase, and we can avoid this issue.

[Gargantua]

Thanks for your thoughts Dutch.

Where’s the Italian turn? :p

Hope you are doing okay at the hospital Seth…

[seth4god]

Also, from now on, legal move or not; all units in CM are locked there. Feel free to make ncm moves in the cm phase. Like I said I’m not going to try and police whether people move in the cm or ncm phase. But what moves in that phase is locked from further movement.

[seth4god]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9

Game History

Round: 2

Purchase Units - Italians
            Italians buy 1 transport; Remaining resources: 2 PUs;

Combat Move - Italians
            1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Tobruk to Egypt
            1 bomber moved from Southern Italy to Anglo Egyptian Sudan
            1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Kenya to Anglo Egyptian Sudan
            1 fighter moved from Southern Italy to Egypt
            2 infantry moved from Northern Italy to 95 Sea Zone
            2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 95 Sea Zone to 98 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from 98 Sea Zone to Egypt
            1 artillery and 4 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Yugoslavia
            1 armour moved from Romania to Belarus
            1 armour moved from Slovakia Hungary to Belarus
            1 cruiser moved from 95 Sea Zone to 98 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from Bulgaria to Yugoslavia

Combat - Italians
            Battle in Egypt
                Italians attack with 1 armour, 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
                British defend with 1 harbour; ANZAC defend with 1 infantry
                Italians win, taking Egypt from British with 1 armour, 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 mech_infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for ANZAC: 1 infantry
            Battle in Belarus
                Italians attack with 2 armour
                Russians defend with 1 infantry
                Italians win, taking Belarus from Russians with 2 armour remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
            Battle in Anglo Egyptian Sudan
                Italians attack with 1 artillery, 1 bomber and 1 infantry
                British defend with 1 artillery and 2 infantry
                Italians win, taking Anglo Egyptian Sudan from British with 1 artillery and 1 bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
                Casualties for British: 1 artillery and 2 infantry
                Casualties for Italians: 1 infantry
            Battle in Yugoslavia
                Italians attack with 1 artillery and 6 infantry
                Neutral_Allies defend with 3 infantry
                1 artillery owned by the Italians and 3 infantry owned by the Italians retreated to Northern Italy
                Neutral_Allies win with 3 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is -9
                Casualties for Italians: 3 infantry

Non Combat Move - Italians
            1 artillery moved from Southern France to Northern Italy
            1 destroyer moved from 95 Sea Zone to 98 Sea Zone
            1 bomber moved from Anglo Egyptian Sudan to Alexandria
            1 fighter moved from Egypt to Alexandria
            2 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from Tobruk to Alexandria
            1 infantry moved from British Somaliland to Ethiopia

Place Units - Italians
            1 transport placed in 95 Sea Zone

Turn Complete - Italians
            Italians collect 17 PUs; end with 19 PUs total
            Objective Italians 1 Control The Mediterranean: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 24 PUs

[Gargantua]

@seththenewb:

Also, from now on, legal move or not; all units in CM are locked there. Feel free to make ncm moves in the cm phase. Like I said I’m not going to try and police whether people move in the cm or ncm phase. But what moves in that phase is locked from further movement.

Well I’m glad that we are all in agreement to move forward.

However, I am going to caution against this argument.

What I’m reading here is an argument that my sub off the west coast of Australia could not have moved in noncombat because it chose to stay in place during the combat move… ???

Because choosing not to move is a move.

This is a terrible precedent to set…

[Soulblighter]

That statement is also conflicting with the actual rules. After all when air units move during the combat phase, they can also move during the non combat phase. So that statement as it is right now is against the actual rules. I know it is aimed at naval units, but it doesn’t say that.

[dutchmand]

I think it should be simple: Do not move any unit during CM that you do not intend to be a permanent move, whether a CM or NCM.  Doesn’t matter.

So, yes, you can only hurt yourself as the attacker if you make “extra” moves during CM.  I understand that mistakes can happen if you are mocking up different moves on the map beforehand, trying out different things before you actually post.  That’s why before I move for real, I always load up a fresh map, and do only true CMs.

[seth4god]

Whether anyone wants to move any ground or naval units in the combat move phase that aren’t related to combat is up to them. But once they move they will stay moved, that’s all I’m saying. I don’t intend to start calling out every move that happens in the cm phase that isn’t related to combat and saying that’s illegal. But once combat dice are thrown and/or intercept/scramble decisions have been made then ALL units moved in the cm phase are locked to the terr or sz that they’ve moved to. And since we have a peanut gallery, obviously this doesn’t apply to air units.

[boldfresh]

hey karl and garg - hurry up!  we need an opponent in the pit and i think i know who it’s gonna be.

[Gargantua]

@seththenewb:

Whether anyone wants to move any ground or naval units in the combat move phase that aren’t related to combat is up to them. But once they move they will stay moved, that’s all I’m saying. I don’t intend to start calling out every move that happens in the cm phase that isn’t related to combat and saying that’s illegal. But once combat dice are thrown and/or intercept/scramble decisions have been made then ALL units moved in the cm phase are locked to the terr or sz that they’ve moved to. And since we have a peanut gallery, obviously this doesn’t apply to air units.

I can roll with this, so long as I dont start hearing arguments that I cant move pieces in NcM because they are “post die rolls”, or that I chose to leave them In place by not moving them move them during the combat phase.

Let’s move on!

[seth4god]

By that standard no ncm phase would exist except air trying to land.  :roll:

There have been other moves in the cm phase that I haven’t kicked up a fuss about. I only called out this one because I don’t want the wrong precedent set. Look at it from another perspective. Say UK moved it’s fleet to sz91 in the cm phase at the same time that an attack was made on ships in sz112. If I make my scramble and any subsequent loss decisions based in part on what that fleet in sz91, I want to know that it’s going to stay there and it’s not going to suddenly be in sz109 instead.

[Gargantua]

@seththenewb:

By that standard no ncm phase would exist except air trying to land.  :roll:

There have been other moves in the cm phase that I haven’t kicked up a fuss about. I only called out this one because I don’t want the wrong precedent set. Look at it from another perspective. Say UK moved it’s fleet to sz91 in the cm phase at the same time that an attack was made on ships in sz112. If I make my scramble and any subsequent loss decisions based in part on what that fleet in sz91, I want to know that it’s going to stay there and it’s not going to suddenly be in sz109 instead.

Looking at it from that perspective, Germany can argue that it chose to scramble on the basis that the UK fleet wasn’t moving to Sz91 or Sz112, and was staying in position.

Hence why NCM’s done at the same time as combat are illegal.

#1. I will make sure I don’t make NCM’s at the same time as CM
#2. Neither party should base their strategy off of “illegal maneuvers” observed on the board.

[Gargantua]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9

Game History

Round: 2

Purchase Units - ANZAC
            ANZAC buy 1 infantry, 1 mech_infantry and 1 transport; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - ANZAC

Non Combat Move - ANZAC
            2 aaGuns, 1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Queensland to South Australia
            1 destroyer moved from 54 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from New South Wales to South Australia
            1 cruiser moved from 62 Sea Zone to 54 Sea Zone

Place Units - ANZAC
            1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry placed in New South Wales
            1 transport placed in 62 Sea Zone

Turn Complete - ANZAC
            ANZAC collect 14 PUs; end with 14 PUs total

[seth4god]

The German War Machine is ready, where’s the allied feeble attempts to save the day?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcz-Oho0tlU

[Gargantua]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9

Game History

Round: 2

Combat Move - French
            1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Normandy Bordeaux to Holland Belgium
            1 infantry moved from Libya to Tobruk
                  French take Tobruk from Italians

Combat - French
            Battle in Holland Belgium
                French attack with 1 artillery and 1 infantry
                Germans defend with 1 aaGun and 2 infantry
                    French roll dice for 1 artillery and 1 infantry in Holland Belgium, round 2 :  2/2 hits
                    Germans roll dice for 1 aaGun and 2 infantry in Holland Belgium, round 2 :  0/2 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the Germans and 1 aaGun owned by the Germans lost in Holland Belgium
                    French roll dice for 1 artillery and 1 infantry in Holland Belgium, round 3 :  1/2 hits
                    Germans roll dice for 1 infantry in Holland Belgium, round 3 :  0/1 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Holland Belgium
                French win, taking Holland Belgium from Germans with 1 artillery and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 11
                Casualties for Germans: 1 aaGun and 2 infantry

Non Combat Move - French
            1 fighter moved from Iceland to United Kingdom
            1 infantry moved from Tunisia to Libya
            1 infantry moved from Algeria to Tunisia
            1 infantry moved from French Central Africa to French Equatorial Africa
            1 destroyer moved from 81 Sea Zone to 80 Sea Zone

Turn Complete - French

Dice Statistics:

Total
            1 was rolled 1 times
            2 was rolled 2 times
            3 was rolled 2 times
            4 was rolled 1 times
            5 was rolled 1 times
        Average roll : 2.857
        Median : 3.000
        Variance : 0.500
        Standard Deviation : 0.707
        Total rolls : 7

Germans Combat
            3 was rolled 2 times
            5 was rolled 1 times
        Average roll : 3.667
        Median : 3.000
        Variance : 2.500
        Standard Deviation : 1.581
        Total rolls : 3

French Combat
            1 was rolled 1 times
            2 was rolled 2 times
            4 was rolled 1 times
        Average roll : 2.250
        Median : 2.000
        Variance : 2.000
        Standard Deviation : 1.414
        Total rolls : 4

[Gargantua]

@seththenewb:

The German War Machine is ready, where’s the allied feeble attempts to save the day?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcz-Oho0tlU

You mean the “I have to pervert the game to have a chance at winning so I’m running the same old cheap script strategy war machine?”

Yeah, it’s weak, and we’re still going to stomp you, like we’ve stomped all your little friends in Denver.

Chop Chop Germany, you’re up!

[seth4god]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9

Game History

Round: 3

Research Technology - Germans

Purchase Units - Germans
            Germans buy 2 fighters and 6 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Politics - Germans
            Germans takes Political Action: Political Action Germans To War With Chinese
                Germans succeeds on action: Political Action Germans To War With Chinese: Changing Relationship for Germans and Chinese from Neutrality to War

Combat Move - Germans
            2 infantry moved from Finland to Karelia
            1 bomber moved from Western Germany to Karelia
            3 bombers moved from Western Germany to Trans-Jordan
            4 bombers, 1 fighter and 2 tactical_bombers moved from Southern Italy to Trans-Jordan
            2 infantry moved from Norway to 112 Sea Zone
            2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 112 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from 91 Sea Zone to Gibraltar
            1 infantry moved from Baltic States to Novgorod
                  Germans take Novgorod from Russians
            2 mech_infantrys moved from Germany to Holland Belgium
            2 tactical_bombers moved from Western Germany to Holland Belgium

Combat - Germans
            Battle in Gibraltar
            Battle in Trans-Jordan
                Germans attack with 7 bombers, 1 fighter and 2 tactical_bombers
                British defend with 1 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber; French defend with 1 infantry
                Germans win, taking Gibraltar from British with 7 bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is -1
                Casualties for Germans: 1 fighter and 2 tactical_bombers
                Casualties for British: 1 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
                Casualties for French: 1 infantry
            Battle in Holland Belgium
                Germans attack with 2 mech_infantrys and 2 tactical_bombers
                French defend with 1 artillery and 1 infantry
                retreated to Holland Belgium
                French win with 1 artillery remaining. Battle score for attacker is -5
                Casualties for Germans: 2 mech_infantrys
                Casualties for French: 1 infantry
            Battle in Karelia
                Germans attack with 1 bomber and 2 infantry
                Russians defend with 2 infantry
                Germans win, taking Karelia from Russians with 1 bomber and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
                Casualties for Russians: 2 infantry

Non Combat Move - Germans
            1 bomber moved from Karelia to Finland
            2 aaGuns, 1 armour and 2 infantry moved from Baltic States to Novgorod
            2 armour, 3 artilleries and 13 infantry moved from Baltic States to Belarus
            2 artilleries moved from Eastern Poland to Belarus
            1 infantry moved from Romania to Eastern Poland
            6 armour and 4 mech_infantrys moved from Romania to Belarus
            2 mech_infantrys moved from Germany to Baltic States
            2 tactical_bombers moved from Holland Belgium to Western Germany
            7 bombers moved from Trans-Jordan to Egypt
            2 fighters moved from Western Germany to Belarus
            1 cruiser moved from 112 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone

Place Units - Germans
            4 mech_infantrys placed in Germany
            2 fighters and 2 mech_infantrys placed in Western Germany

Turn Complete - Germans
            Germans collect 39 PUs; end with 39 PUs total
            Trigger Germans 5 Swedish Iron Ore: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 44 PUs
            Objective Germans 2 Control Novgorod Or Volgograd Or Russia: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 49 PUs