Rethinking Strategic Bomber and Tactical Bomber Roles

[barney]

The third fighter would work. My only concern is fleets have the defensive advantage as it is ( well evidently not with the bomber spam) but fleet to fleet. It would be a simple approach which is best.
I’m gonna try Baron’s Tac A4 D3 +1 A to tank when paired with tank. SBR A3 +1 when paired with fighter or no enemy air. Cruiser gets 1 AA shot at 1 (one plane only). Fighters A/D 2 on escort /intercept. SBRs stay at 1.

Should be able to set it up tomorrow unless Germany rebounds from the ass kicking the lucky Russians just gave them. :)

[Chrisx]

@amanntai:

There goes bombing the mainland/London to prep for an invasion…

Not really because you can do that with tactical bombers instead.

[Chrisx]

@Baron:

attacking SB’s cannot inflict battle casualties on fighters

Why not make it more general such as “cannot inflict battle casualties on other planes”?

That sounds even more sensible. Arguably, though,  there’s always the chance that bombers could eliminate unprepared enemy planes that are on the ground (as happened in sneak attacks like Pearl Harbour and the first few hours of Germany’s attack on Russia) but as that’s rare it’s probably best to ignore it in favour of a good general rule.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Chrisx:

@Baron:

attacking SB’s cannot inflict battle casualties on fighters

Why not make it more general such as “cannot inflict battle casualties on other planes”?

That sounds even more sensible. Arguably, though,  there’s always the chance that bombers could eliminate unprepared enemy planes that are on the ground (as happened in sneak attacks like Pearl Harbour and the first few hours of Germany’s attack on Russia) but as that’s rare it’s probably best to ignore it in favour of a good general rule.

This can be restricted to: “in Naval Combat, cannot inflict battle casualties on other planes”

[amanntai]

@Baron:

@Chrisx:

@Baron:

attacking SB’s cannot inflict battle casualties on fighters

Why not make it more general such as “cannot inflict battle casualties on other planes”?

That sounds even more sensible. Arguably, though,  there’s always the chance that bombers could eliminate unprepared enemy planes that are on the ground (as happened in sneak attacks like Pearl Harbour and the first few hours of Germany’s attack on Russia) but as that’s rare it’s probably best to ignore it in favour of a good general rule.

This can be restricted to: “in Naval Combat, cannot inflict battle casualties on other planes”

Except that the same exception occurs there too. I believe in the Battle of Midway Japanese bombers destroyed some planes aboard Yorktown. Maybe allow planes to be hit by bombers only on the first wave of attacks?

[General 6 Stars]

Well you could make it where when bombers are attacking fleets with carriers and planes, have it where if bombers roll a 1 on first round of combat only, the plane or planes are destroyed due to they didn’t launch in time.

[amanntai]

But now it’s just getting real complicated.

I still stand by the simple fix of keeping all OOB stats the same but only allowing Bombers to participate in the first round of combat.

[General 6 Stars]

Ya I hear ya amanntai. But I only play the more advanced games. Even more advanced than HBG’s Global 39.

[amanntai]

@SS:

Ya I hear ya amanntai. But I only play the more advanced games. Even more advanced than HBG’s Global 39.

How long do these games take?

[barney]

Well wasn’t able to get all of it Baron but here’s a triplea xml that has bombers A3 +1 when paired with fighter(1:1), TACs A4 D3 gives +1 to tanks D when paired 1:1. Fighter escort and interceptors A/D 2.

Wasn’t able to get the +1 when no enemy air is present, but I don’t think that will mess things up too much. Most ships have either ACs or ABs to protect them. One fighter shutting down a slew of bmbrs would be the same as one dstry shutting down subs. Not being able to hit a lone blocker or sub killer sets them back as well as solo infrantry attacks but we’ll just play the historical strats weren’t good at hitting ships anyway. :) We probably won’t see many SBRs without fighter escort but that’s the way it goes. Their main advantage is still their range and offense can be boosted with a ftr.

TACs get the 4 hit plus the boost to the tanks D. So they still have a connection. Not sure how that will play out but I think it will be OK. Just have to play it and see.

Anyway gonna start a playtest right now.

If you’re not familiar with adding XMLs to triplea: open triplea, open maps, open WW II Global zip, put the objectives there then open games and put the xml there.

Global 40 SBR.zip

[baron Münchhausen]

Incredible job Barney!
I cannot believe that TripleA can be modified as you did.
Thanks for the hardwork.
I will download this as soon as I can.
Keep me posted after your playtests.

[barney]

Well I’m not done with my test game yet but it looks like the Allies are going to pull it out.

Germany didn’t buy as many bmbrs as usual but that may have been due more to taking moderate air losses the first turn (4 planes) and Italy getting spanked in the Med. Germany built a Med fleet to try and regain the initiative and after successfully destroying a UK tranny fleet off of Guiana, was obliterated off the west coast of Gibralter by a slightly smaller Canadian fleet which suffered a mere dstry loss. Throwing good money after bad, they built a minor in Yugo and with predictable results that failed as well.

Anyway they didn’t really have the dough to go bmbr buying. But poor strategic decisions aside, I think I would have bought a few less but still invested in them. Germany kept their TACs on the eastern front with a fighter or two for when the bmbrs came by while the bmbrs and ftrs mostly stayed in W Germany. The RD 1 attacks weren’t effected because everything is paired anyway. Didn’t do any SBRs on London.

Japan had a -1 on the Yunnan attack wich doesn’t effect much. However with her huge air force she bought more bmbrs to pair with her ftrs. The TACs were deadly and I loaded some CVs with both TACs or ftrs for offense or defense punch. She SBR’d India to good effect since India didn’t want to risk her ftrs. US went fairly bmbr heavy as well. UK had a couple and Italy and ANZAC each had one.

The 3 attack definitely got my attention. A bit of a mind trip after playing at 4 all these years. While some attacks were made unescorted I usually had ftrs with them. It seemed to effect Italy more since she was having to keep her ftrs at home for the most part. Also she never really got a chance to get a 2nd one. I was playing a tech heavy game and when you get Hvy bmbrs you really appreciate the extra roll.

So it definitely slows them down a bit but their still effective at SBR’s if they get through. A little more chancy taking out solo blockers. It was fun sending solo TACs to boost small counterattacks. Next game I’ll try and get in some more SBR’s and crank up some U-boats. Get UK to trade some dstrys. See how that goes. I guess you could pair sub and bmbr +1 for a little more punch to take out blockers but that doesn’t seem very realistic to me.

Anyway it’s fun trying something new. Makes you think a little different. I’m a low to intermediate player but it seems like a nice adjustment to me. I recommend giving it a try.

[baron Münchhausen]

@barney:

Well I’m not done with my test game yet but it looks like the Allies are going to pull it out.

The RD 1 attacks weren’t effected because everything is paired anyway. Didn’t do any SBRs on London.

The 3 attack definitely got my attention. A bit of a mind trip after playing at 4 all these years. While some attacks were made unescorted I usually had ftrs with them. It seemed to effect Italy more since she was having to keep her ftrs at home for the most part. Also she never really got a chance to get a 2nd one. I was playing a tech heavy game and when you get Hvy bmbrs you really appreciate the extra roll.

So it definitely slows them down a bit but their still effective at SBR’s if they get through. A little more chancy taking out solo blockers. It was fun sending solo TACs to boost small counterattacks. Next game I’ll try and get in some more SBR’s and crank up some U-boats. Get UK to trade some dstrys. See how that goes. I guess you could pair sub and bmbr +1 for a little more punch to take out blockers but that doesn’t seem very realistic to me.

Anyway it’s fun trying something new. Makes you think a little different. I’m a low to intermediate player but it seems like a nice adjustment to me. I recommend giving it a try.

Thank you for the interesting report.

If you believe, as I do, that SBR is OP and can partly explain why StB can be very effective, you can read and compare some stats between various SBR OOB rules in this post:
Re: German bomber strategy - How to play and How to counter
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35390.msg1385642#msg1385642

[General 6 Stars]

@amanntai:

@SS:

Ya I hear ya amanntai. But I only play the more advanced games. Even more advanced than HBG’s Global 39.

How long do these games take?

Games take 12 to 24 hours.

[crusaderiv]

Ss…Yep…but last 3 games, we played 14 hours and played between 13 and 15 turns. The last games finish in a draw. I played Germany and at the end, only southern and Moscow still under control of Russia but soviets player stacked all his infantries in Moscow. Infantry défend at 3 in Russian cities but I hate this rules and I’m going to remove it from the rules.

[baron Münchhausen]

@crusaderiv:

Ss…Yep…but last 3 games, we played 14 hours and played between 13 and 15 turns. The last games finish in a draw. I played Germany and at the end, only southern and Moscow still under control of Russia but soviets player stacked all his infantries in Moscow. Infantry d�fend at 3 in Russian cities but I hate this rules and I’m going to remove it from the rules.

I’m promoting Anti-Tank Gun instead: A1 D3 Cost 4, +1D to Infantry paired 1:1.
Russia must pay to get the boosted defensive bonus, it is not free.
ATG is figuring for all extra defensive measures deployed by Russian in WWII.

Germany can also built an Atlantic Wall kind when stacking ATG+INF with them if they wish to pay.

[crusaderiv]

Yes baron.in fact i have su 76 boosting Infantry + 1. Russian player may buy siberian Infantry attack at 2 in the first round of combat but only during winter. Same price as regular Infantry.

[baron Münchhausen]

@crusaderiv:

Yes baron.in fact i have su 76 boosting Infantry + 1. Russian player may buy siberian Infantry attack at 2 in the first round of combat but only during winter. Same price as regular Infantry.

Wow! Really advance and detailed game.

[barney]

4 bucks for a D 3 unit sounds pretty badass. Especially if it boosts a dude.
I saw you wrote somewhere else about that but don’t recall the details. Have you done any playtests with it?

[amanntai]

@barney:

4 bucks for a D 3 unit sounds pretty badass. Especially if it boosts a dude.
I saw you wrote somewhere else about that but don’t recall the details. Have you done any playtests with it?

It was on the Heavy Artillery (Now named Anti-tank Gun) thread. The math looked pretty solid. Better defense than pure infantry, but worse offense.