@Admiral:
I’m not confident it is good idea to create a 4 IPC unit that defends on 3 (or that boosts infantry to 3). It is simply way too powerful. Why would Russia, while on the defensive, even bother with tanks or any regular OOB units for that matter? You would find very quickly that the game will spiral into something that would be completely unrecognizable. The defender would suddenly have a significant upper hand economically matching their opponents tanks at 66% the cost. Filling a perceived gap in the unit list really needs to be analysed as to whether or not the new unit will throw a wrench in the existing framework. For this reason, I don’t believe that a regular anti tank gun unit as you have presented it is a good idea.
If you priced it at 5, with a defensive value at 3 and an attack value at 1 and a movement of 1 with no other bonuses… I think you’d be more in business. It’s not too much cheaper than a tank, but you are still getting the same punch. Paying for that higher probability comes at a premium! I mean. … good anti tank fighters require training, support and top notch equipment!
Good points to consider and which need to be answered.
I believe the maths can contradict the intuitive thinking here.
Let’s suppose a 42 IPCs stack for reference:
7 Tanks A21 D21, 7 hits
14 Infantry A14 D 28, 14 hits
6 ATGs + 6 Infantry, A12 D36, 12 hits
Here is the comparative attack and defense values:
6 ATG (A6)+ 6 Inf, Attack (A6)= A12 value compared to pure 14 Infantry (A14) Attack.
Overall %*: ATG. survives: 22.4% INF. survives: 77.9% No one survives: 0.2%
6 ATG (D18)+ 6 Inf, Defense (D18)= D36 value compared to pure 14 Infantry (D28) Defense.
Overall %*: ATG. survives: 61.6% INF. survives: 37.2% No one survives: 1.2%
Now here is the AACalc:
Combat Reference for Defense:
7 Tanks A21 D21, 7 hits against
14 Infantry A14 D 28, 14 hits
Overall %*: Tank survives: 0.6% Infantry survives: 99.4% No one survives: 0%
7 Tanks A21 D21, 7 hits against
6 ATGs + 6 Infantry, A12 D36, 12 hits
Overall %*: Tank survives: 0.1% ATG survives: 99.9% No one survives: 0%
Combat Reference for Offense:
14 Infantry A14 D 28, 14 hits against
7 Tanks A21 D21, 7 hits
Overall %*: Infantry survives: 72.4% Tank survives: 27% No one survives: 0.7%
6 ATGs + 6 Infantry, A12 D36, 12 hits against
7 Tanks A21 D21, 7 hits
Overall %*: ATG survives: 45.7% Tank survives: 53.2% No one survives: 1.1%
The ATG unit mix with Infantry seems to slightly increase defense but it becomes worst on offensive.
Tanks can better resist to them, than against pure Infantry. And I didn’t consider the Artillery combined arms.
At low level:
1 Tank against 2 Infantry:
Overall %*: Tank survives: 14% Infantry survives: 78.6% No one survives: 7.4%
1 Tank, 6 IPCs against 1 ATG+1 Inf, 7 IPCs:
Overall %*: Tank survives: 4.9% Infantry survives: 90.4% No one survives: 4.7%
But it is not the same cost basis.
Let’s take a look at a mix of Tank and Infantry:
Combat Reference for Defense:
4 Tanks + 6 Infantry, A18 D24, 10 hits against
14 Infantry A14 D 28, 14 hits
Overall %*: Tank survives: 4.1% Infantry survives: 95.5% No one survives: 0.3%
4 Tanks + 6 Infantry, A18 D24, 10 hits against
6 ATGs + 6 Infantry, A12 D36, 12 hits
Overall %*: Tank survives: 4% ATG survives: 95.6% No one survives: 0.5%
Now, we can see that adding ATG doesn’t make such a big difference on defense compared to Infantry.
It will give a fast boost on defense, slightly above a pure Infantry defense.
But there is also a drawback, ATG will not give you as good opportunity to make counter-attack as it is possible with an Infantry stack.
So, this 4 IPCs units create opportunity at small scale to bring more defense at a faster rate.
But Infantry remains the more useful and versatile units.
Another point, Tank will not be throw all alone against such defensive lines.
Mechanized Infantry and 5 IPCs Mechanized Artillery should be bring into the mix with Tank.
In my HR, all these fast moving M2 units get:
A8 D8 M2 C15, 3 hits.
We can also compare in A&A Calc:
1 MI, 1 MA, 1 Tank, A8 D8 M2 C15, 3 hits against
2 ATGs + 2 Infs= A4 D12 C14, 4 hits:
Overall %*: MI,MA,Tank survives: 8.3% ATG survives: 88.2% No one survives: 3.5%
For comparison with pure Infantry stack:
1 MI, 1 MA, 1 Tank, A8 D8 M2 C15, 3 hits against
5 Infantry A5 D10, 5 hits
Overall %*: MI,MA,Tank survives: 9.1% ATG survives: 88.9% No one survives: 1.9%
So, all in all, ATG gives a little “humph” on defense compare to Infantry but bringing also his nemesis in the game, Mechanized Artillery, I think it keeps things well balance and introduce more variety of options for defender, allowing to spent a few extra “1” IPC into this unit.
But too much, will not work since you will not be able to retake land taken by using ATG on offense.
That is my answer to :
Why would Russia, while on the defensive, even bother with tanks or any regular OOB units for that matter?
Thanks for your reply, I would never get deeper into the maths without it.
Now, I’m more confident this unit can work.
One last point, about the 5 IPCs ATG with no combined arms.
This unit cannot work at all for any optimized playing type of game.
Since ATG is a defensive unit, it directly compete with Infantry.
If it is not at all better from any perspective, you will keep buying Infantry instead.
It is similar to the Cruiser cunundrum, at 12 IPCs this unit is never an optimized purchase.
Destroyer are always better and have an ASW ability.
A player which have 5 IPCs, can probably find another 1 IPC to invest into a Tank instead.
You will get the same defensive power but an higher mobility and triple the offensive.
Maybe the ATG A1 D3 M1 C4, no combined arms can be OK, for using 1 spare IPC on an immediate urgent situation.
Maybe there is more to it, at low level of unit interactions. IDK
But it is clear that between for 12 IPCs, 3 ATG and 4 Inf, it is always better to buy all Infantry.
Defense values:
3 ATG (D9) value compared to pure 4 Infantry (D8) Defense.
Overall %*: ATG. survives: 37.8% INF. survives: 56.6% No one survives: 5.5%
