2014 League playoff rd 2 - (3) Zhukov44(+18) vs (2) Gamerman01(Axis)

[gamerman01]

NM, just realized I haven’t made a move since France/ANZAC, so certainly, you can amend their turn

[gamerman01]

Did you not read what I wrote before, though?  I said you couldn’t place Chinese in Hong Kong and needed to re-place them, yet you didn’t.  I had most of my German combat move done when I noticed you hadn’t done anything to fix China.

[Zhukov44]

@Gamerman01:

Just look at the China rules in the Pacific rulebook, Zhuk.  Page 8 or 10 or something.  It’s crystal clear.  Has to be originally Chinese

According to the 2nd edition rulebook, on pg 10, it says “New Chinese Units can be mobilized on any territory controlled by China, including those captured on the same turn”.  Also on pg 10 it says “China can temporarily control” Kwangtung.  Seems pretty clear.  Is there passage later in the rulebook that contradicts this?

http://www.axisandallies.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Axis-Allies-Pacific-1940-Second-Edition.pdf

[axis-dominion]

Yep, Zhukov has it right! Just read it entirely for myself. But now I’m wondering if that also means China gains income off of it?! Since it is temporarily under Chinese control, same as if another ally took control of it.

[lexgreat]

Thats from this link:

New Chinese units can be mobilized on any Chinese territory that is controlled by China,…

However, Kwangtung and Burma are special cases. Although they are not Chinese territories, Chinese forces can move into them. These are the only non-Chinese territories that Chinese units can
occupy. China can even temporarily control them, but only if it recaptures them from the Axis while India is under Axis control.

Under those conditions, they control and hence can mobilize?

[Zhukov44]

Well now I’ve found a passage from Krieghund that support’s Gamer’s position.  Yet another example of unclear rules and TripleA misinterpreting them, followed by “gotcha” moments after my turn has been played.  Had I known I can’t place them there, then I would have played the UK turn differently.

Now the rulebook online is saying “Chinese” territory, so perhaps Krieg’s reasoning is that Kwangtung isn’t Chinese?  This is quite confusing–if China isn’t allowed to mobilize units there, then the rulebook ought to explicitly say that.

[axis-dominion]

You know what I’m confused about? Why does the rulebook clearly make a distinction between occupying and controlling, if there isn’t any functional difference between them?

“These are
the only non-Chinese territories that Chinese units can
occupy. China can even temporarily control them, but only
if it recaptures them from the Axis while India is under Axis
control.”

Like what advantage does controlling these territories have over just occupying them, if China can’t place new units there or gain any income from them? See what I mean? I’m thinking the designers meant there to be a difference, or why bother making the distinction?

[lexgreat]

hm, one thing is for sure, I always thought you cant mobilize there. But the wording in the rulebook at least suggest otherwise. Then again, Krieghund has superior authority, I guess.

[axis-dominion]

To me, what they’re saying here is much like how an ally can occupy another ally’s territory, but when the ally is conquered, then its territories can also be controlled by their allies–and we know that controlling has advantages of being able to build new units there and also gaining income. So why should the idea of occupying vs controlling be any different for the Chinese with respect to these two territories?

[Zhukov44]

@axis-dominion:

You know what I’m confused about? Why does the rulebook clearly make a distinction between occupying and controlling, if there isn’t any functional difference between them?

“These are
the only non-Chinese territories that Chinese units can
occupy. China can even temporarily control them, but only
if it recaptures them from the Axis while India is under Axis
control.”

Like what advantage does controlling these territories have over just occupying them, if China can’t place new units there or gain any income from them? See what I mean? I’m thinking the designers meant there to be a difference, or why bother making the distinction?

I suppose controlling means they get a Chinese marker and China gets income from them.

[Zhukov44]

Ok, after looking it over I’m going to just place the 4 in Anhwe, and leave my UK deployment as it was (assuming you’re ok with that).  I would, however, like to take that battle in 33 as it seems to be my best odds of avoiding defeat.  Going to edit and redo Anzac now.

[gamerman01]

OK, I see your (plural) point

Here is the explanation:

“New Chinese units can be mobilized on any Chinese territory that is controlled by China, including those captured in the current turn”

Hong Kong is not a Chinese territory.  “Chinese territory” means one that is marked with the Chinese symbol.  See first paragraph on page 10 that says “Chinese territories on the game board have a Nationalist Chinese symbol on them”

Krieghund would say it’s obvious, and clearly written, but I agree with you Zhukov - the rulebook could be much better in many cases, not that it matters.  It is clear enough here.

What in the world would you have done differently?  One more infantry from Kwangsi in Hong Kong??

[gamerman01]

I’m not sure what you mean about UK deployment - it was just some boats on the Europe side - but yes, certainly edit the Chinese men to another territory and re-do ANZAC turn

[gamerman01]

@Gamerman01:

the rulebook could be much better in many cases, not that it matters.

It does matter, I just meant…. I don’t know

[gamerman01]

@Zhukov44:

followed by “gotcha” moments after my turn has been played.  Had I known I can’t place them there, then I would have played the UK turn differently.

You may change your UK move with respect to China

I still believe everyone is responsible for knowing the rules and has to pay for it when they don’t, but I’m willing to give you the break.

[Zhukov44]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9

Game History

Round: 10

Purchase Units - ANZAC
            ANZAC buy 1 submarine; Remaining resources: 4 PUs;

Combat Move - ANZAC
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Queensland to 33 Sea Zone

Combat - ANZAC
            Battle in 33 Sea Zone
                ANZAC attack with 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber
                Japanese defend with 1 battleship, 1 carrier, 1 submarine and 2 transports
                1 submarine owned by the Japanese Submerged
                retreated to 33 Sea Zone
                Japanese win with 1 battleship, 1 carrier and 2 transports remaining. Battle score for attacker is -10
                Casualties for ANZAC: 1 fighter

Non Combat Move - ANZAC
            1 tactical_bomber moved from 33 Sea Zone to New Britain
            1 fighter moved from New South Wales to Queensland
            1 infantry moved from Queensland to New South Wales

Place Units - ANZAC
            1 submarine placed in 62 Sea Zone

Turn Complete - ANZAC
            ANZAC collect 8 PUs; end with 12 PUs total

[Zhukov44]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9

Game History

Round: 10

Combat Move - French
            1 destroyer moved from 92 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from United Kingdom to 110 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from Egypt to Trans-Jordan

Non Combat Move - French

Turn Complete - French
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by ANZAC from New South Wales: 1 infantry
            EDIT: Adding units owned by ANZAC to Queensland: 1 infantry
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by ANZAC from Queensland: 1 infantry
            EDIT: Adding units owned by ANZAC to New South Wales: 1 infantry
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

[gamerman01]

Great.  This is probably a better move than placing 4 infantry in Hong Kong

[gamerman01]

In fact, it’s MUCH more likely to stave off defeat in the short term.  Ironic.

[gamerman01]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9

Game History

Round: 11

Research Technology - Germans

Purchase Units - Germans
            Germans buy 3 armour, 1 artillery, 1 bomber, 1 destroyer, 1 fighter, 13 infantry, 1 mech_infantry and 1 submarine; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Germans
            2 infantry moved from Volgograd to Samara
            1 infantry moved from Archangel to Vologda
                  Germans take Vologda from Russians
            1 infantry moved from Archangel to Smolensk
            1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Smolensk
            2 infantry moved from Bryansk to Tambov
            1 bomber moved from Western Germany to Smolensk
            1 fighter moved from Bryansk to Samara
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Bryansk to Samara
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Bryansk to Samara
            1 bomber moved from Western Germany to Tambov
            1 armour moved from Volgograd to Sikang
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Kazakhstan to Sikang
            1 mech_infantry moved from Kazakhstan to Tsinghai
            1 mech_infantry moved from Kazakhstan to Sikang
            1 fighter moved from Kazakhstan to Tsinghai
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Kazakhstan to Tsinghai
            1 bomber moved from Southern Italy to Tsinghai
            1 infantry moved from Bryansk to Smolensk
            2 infantry moved from Bryansk to Tambov

Combat - Germans
            Germans creates battle in territory 119 Sea Zone
            Battle in Tambov
                Germans attack with 1 bomber and 4 infantry
                Russians defend with 1 artillery and 1 infantry
                Germans win, taking 119 Sea Zone from British, taking Tambov from Russians with 1 bomber and 3 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 4
                Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry
                Casualties for Russians: 1 artillery and 1 infantry
            Battle in Samara
                Germans attack with 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 2 tactical_bombers
                Russians defend with 1 artillery and 1 infantry
                Germans win, taking Samara from Russians with 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 2 tactical_bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
                Casualties for Russians: 1 artillery and 1 infantry
            Battle in Smolensk
                Germans attack with 1 bomber and 3 infantry
                Russians defend with 1 artillery
                Germans win, taking Smolensk from Russians with 1 bomber and 3 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 4
                Casualties for Russians: 1 artillery
            Battle in Sikang
                Germans attack with 1 armour, 1 mech_infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
                Chinese defend with 1 artillery and 1 infantry
                Germans win, taking Sikang from Chinese with 1 armour and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Germans: 1 mech_infantry
                Casualties for Chinese: 1 artillery and 1 infantry
            Battle in Tsinghai
                Germans attack with 1 bomber, 1 fighter, 1 mech_infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
                Russians defend with 2 infantry
                Germans win with 1 bomber, 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 2
                Casualties for Germans: 1 mech_infantry
                Casualties for Russians: 2 infantry

Non Combat Move - Germans
            1 bomber moved from Smolensk to Novgorod
            1 bomber moved from Tambov to Bryansk
            2 artilleries and 1 infantry moved from Ukraine to Bryansk
            1 infantry moved from Novgorod to Archangel
            1 armour moved from Novgorod to Nenetsia
            1 mech_infantry moved from Novgorod to Nenetsia
            2 aaGuns moved from Western Germany to Denmark
            7 armour and 7 mech_infantrys moved from India to Eastern Persia
            2 infantry moved from Persia to Eastern Persia
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Sikang to Kazakhstan
            1 fighter moved from Tsinghai to Kazakhstan
            1 bomber moved from Tsinghai to Kazakhstan
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Tsinghai to Kazakhstan
            1 infantry moved from Western Germany to 113 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from Western Germany to 113 Sea Zone
            2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 113 Sea Zone to 115 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from 115 Sea Zone to Finland
            1 submarine moved from 125 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone
            1 submarine moved from 119 Sea Zone to 125 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from Samara to Kazakhstan
            2 tactical_bombers moved from Samara to Bryansk
            1 mech_infantry moved from Bryansk to Volgograd
            1 mech_infantry moved from Bryansk to Volgograd
            3 mech_infantrys moved from Belarus to Bryansk
            3 infantry moved from Western Germany to Denmark
            1 mech_infantry moved from Western Germany to Denmark
            1 fighter moved from Southern Italy to Denmark
            1 fighter moved from Western Germany to Denmark
            1 aaGun and 3 infantry moved from France to Western Germany

Place Units - Germans
            1 armour and 2 infantry placed in Volgograd
            1 armour, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry placed in Novgorod
            3 infantry placed in Ukraine
            1 destroyer and 1 submarine placed in 39 Sea Zone
            1 infantry placed in India
            1 armour, 1 artillery, 1 bomber, 1 fighter and 6 infantry placed in Western Germany
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Germans from Western Germany: 1 aaGun
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Germans to France: 1 aaGun
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

Turn Complete - Germans
            Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 2
                Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 80 Sea Zone. Rolls: 6,2
            Germans collect 65 PUs (2 lost to blockades); end with 65 PUs total
            Trigger Germans 5 Swedish Iron Ore: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 70 PUs
            Objective Germans 6 Control Iraq Or Persia Or Northwest Persia: Germans met a national objective for an additional 4 PUs; end with 74 PUs
            Objective Germans 2 Control Novgorod Or Volgograd Or Russia: Germans met a national objective for an additional 10 PUs; end with 84 PUs
            Objective Germans 3 Control Caucasus: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 89 PUs