@craykirk:
As long as you are discussing hit points, etc. One thing that has bothered me with the subs can’t hit air rule is that tanks and infantry really have no chance at a bomber and do bombers really have a 4/6 chance of destroying the one unit, a fighter, which was made to counter them? Bombers hit ground units, subs hit water units… Why the difference? If infantry are a fodder unit, then truly make them that. Make their offensive/defensive capabilities equal at a 1 and if you want them a 2, you buy artillery on offense and bunkers on defense.
The transport rule is one that really changed the game because without it, the Axis air force gets wiped out at a huge loss and Germany has a hard time replacing the fighters. If a sub with a deck gun and torpedoes defends at 1, then how does a transport with no real armament have any defensive ability? I understand that a transport represents a group of transports and support units however if you use this same line of thought, then a sub isn’t just a sub as it would also have support units.
The game would then turn into a real confusing one and the only way to win would be to get a Royal Fizzbin!
The defenseless transport is more intended to figure only troops transports and their supply ships.
No real escorts vessels with them, such as corvettes, frigates or Destroyer Escort.
But these troops transports have some defensive guns, mainly against aircrafts.
Re: The aberration of the defenseless transport
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=30618.msg1114422#msg1114422
There is some story in this thread about how transports can be bad ass sometimes. You should read it, interesting.
The other perspective, before defenseless transport happened with AA50:
@Der:
Larry Harris said this about transports in 2007 on his site:
**"I will say this “Transports are considered to be lightly defended with escorts. Additional ships provide additional defense and so on.” (Posted: Fri 23.Feb, 2007)
So originally transports were not to be thought of as just transports.**
Two maxims of the game have generally been:1. every decision involves some risk (dice rolls)
2. defender chooses his own casualtiesThe new transport rules violate both.
@Uncrustable:
Why not give transports a defense of 1 but still must be taken as casualties last ?
Increase their cost to 8Because a transport having a defense of 1 is too generous.
In Classic, transports represented actual transports and escort ships- now escort ships have been decoupled from transports in the form of destroyers.
One thing that has bothered me with the subs can’t hit air rule is that tanks and infantry really have no chance at a bomber and do bombers really have a 4/6 chance of destroying the one unit, a fighter, which was made to counter them?
On that point, I always feel that something was wrong about this.
That’s why I relentlessly tried to figure out some kind of Air units which can fight against each other.
My most refined idea on this point (which is a kind of 1914 Fighter put in regular combat phase) is in this post.
It contains every idea embedded in the roster lists with a different cost structure, if curious, take a look on the last post of this thread:
Baron M’s G40HR Roster: 3-planes carrier, 6 IPCs Fighter A2D2 & Sub A3D1C7
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35222.msg1374545#msg1374545
Not sure where I pulled pearl, must have been thinking of AA50 the Japanese air hit against sz56 since I was playing that the other day too :-D But in any case, there are a few more key transport defenses for Allies in 42.2 over Axis, so it feels like it would lean towards Allied balance, which is a good thing. Probably just more satisfying overall, whatever the effects on the opening. Return them their hit value at 1 (per group as suggested) and taken last, just seems more interesting. It combines the old Classic lucky shot, but doesn’t give up the fodder problem, but makes the unit more potent for the price.
Agreed keep it at 7 ipcs
Lucky 7I’m going to play this way in my next face to face game for sure! Will test it out next Thursday see if the gang enjoys.
Also, if you really want to keep it from changing the opening, you could also make it a force multiplier thing, where only two transports together “A Group” get this defensive boost +1. Two or more transports together would no longer become defenseless. But the not cumulative just the 1 hit for the entire group, whatever its total number, as long as there are at least two transports in the group. This could all be interpreted as a “combined arms” type bonus, where the transport gets boosted by other transports such that the whole group gets to fire together at a 1, whereas single transports would behave OOB. Or you could just apply it universally to all transports whether single or in a group together.
What it is interesting here is that there would be a natural incentive to “fan out” your transports to try to get multiple bonuses on defense instead of just keeping one transports stack, it might be better to split them into smaller groups to get more bang out of them on defense. Things like this might encourage more island hopping, or branching out naval game instead of just a ship stack fest in a few zones. I think these changes could be popular if it feels right.
**So 1 lone transport still defends at zero.
2 transports defend at 1,
3 transports still defend at 1
4 transports still defend at 1, but…If you broke them into 2 groups in two separate sea zones then you’d get double the defense value! Two chances to hit at a 1. This as a way to encourage fanning out over stacking together in the naval game on transport defense.**
See where I am going with it? :)
might be cool.If handled that way, as a combined arms type thing, then the only opening battle affected would be the German sub hit on the US Atlantic transports. But that battle is a little busted anyway, and some even bid a destroyer there believing it is critical. Short of a destroyer added in, the group transport bonus, would give a slight disincentive for German Uboats to hit, they might go after the Canadian transports instead just to avoid the risk of that extra 1 haha
Here is what I found, clearly we are likely-minded on that issue, since the very first post I introduced in the Defenseless transport thread is this one: :-o
@Baron:
@Uncrustable:
Why not give transports a defense of 1 but still must be taken as casualties last ?
Increase their cost to 8Because a transport having a defense of 1 is too generous.
In Classic, transports represented actual transports and escort ships- now escort ships have been decoupled from transports in the form of destroyers.
Hi everybody,
their is some middleway here.Keep at 7 IPCs. It is already a long road to buy an escort fleet, transport and ground units. And bridging from one island to another requires much more transport to travel the same two ground units. The chain of communication is easily outstreched and vulnerable in PTO.
Give any group (2 or more) of Transports a collective defense of 1.
Even in a naval battle with other vessels, give at the start of naval battle the transport group a defense @1.
Transports are still chosen last.
When their is no more combat ship, the attacker still rolls and destroy as many transports as he got hits.
It lasts until the last transport has sunk (which still have 1@1).The capacity to take hits is already a good defense.
I see no need to add more than the single@1 for all the group.However, keep a single isolated transport as an easy target with no defense.
Historically, we can think that there is some corvettes and frigates (but not much) inside a group of transports, 2 units or more (14 IPCs and +).
Another possibility is to limit this @1 as AA only for 2 or more transports. So no combat ship could be kill by the lighter guns on board any troop transports.
The same idea but going a little further:
@Baron:
The whole point of having a transport with a def of 1 is so that it is not a sitting duck. It’s no battleship but at least it’s not totally easy pickings. I like being able to send out a transport out by itself and taking a risk with it. By the same token it makes your opponent think twice before he sends out some lone fighter or bomber to attack you. It forces them to think about losing precious aircraft to attack a transport rather than simply wiping otu a unit of opportunity with no risk.
That’s why I suggest a 1@1 for 2 or more transports plus playing every hit on them.
If attacker throw only 1 Fg @3 against 3TPs, it will take at least 3 lucky rounds before all TPs get drowned. At each round, their is still odds at 1/6 (like a AA gun) to get this Fg down.
IMHO, this far risky that the attacker will put much more aircrafts to be sure not to have too many combat cycles with those TPs.And as write it down, I was thinking about a house rule “Air Supremacy” which imply that an aircraft makes preemptive shot against naval only target with no air support. To counterweight the huge impact of 3 rounds with odds at 1/6 every time.
I eared only of Guadalcanal and Truk’s air raids against transports ships.
And they didn’t make the weight against fighters and TacB.
They were sitting ducks even with their on board AA guns.
In such situation,
the odds are for 1 Fighter @3 against 3 Transports, 3 hits and 1 Def @1 for the entire group:
Overall %*: A. survives: 36.7% D. survives: 56.6% No one survives: 6.7%
It is roughly a 1/3 of survival.
Giving a preemptive strike to Fighter, when attacking Transport only:
Overall %*: A. survives: 37.3% D. survives: 55.2% No one survives: 7.6%
This doesn’t change anything.
In fact, thinking about it, since there is only 1 attacker, the first and second hits still let the defensive fire roll @1 applied.
So, this idea doesn’t work to fix the issue on the 1 combat unit against more than 1 transports.
@Baron:
Based on the game’s simulation of WWII era combat, using a D6 system, a defensive factor of 1 which is lowest defensive score is appropriate.
The argument for no defense is still not valid, and the justification for removing it is as well. It is impossible for one unit comprising of mostly fighters to destroy the equivalent of hundeds if not thousands of ships.
I’ll use the submarine argument against air vs. sub imbalance then. A transport should be able to retreat after one round of attack. The same way a sub can submerge. The TRN can be tipped on it’s side as if retreating. There were blockade runners in all kinds of wars.
Hell let’s just get rid of them and go for sea routes ala Risk! There were thousands of transports travelling alone all over the globe un-contested.
It is possible to get a lower rate that 1 unit @1: 1/6 per unit.
AA guns get 3@1 once.
I suggested: 2 and more TPs get only 1D@1 but endure as many hits as they are.A fleeing tactics can be imagine:
Philip Schwartzer from Gamers Paradise suggested that two or more TPs can be attack by 2@4 for each Sub and BB.For a single round, you can double dice for every attacking units and let the remaining TPs as survivors: 1Fg @3 get 2@3/ 1StrB get 2@4, etc.
Hi Black_Elk,
I may have find something which can be a way to let transport have a little defense roll.
It can be similar to the actual AAA unit. The only difference could be that each transport can only get 1 defense roll @1.
Once this is done, all transports are considered destroyed if there is at least 1 attacking unit remaining.
Transports can only roll their defense when at least 1 casualty is allocated to them.
For example: 1 Fg is attacking 3 Transports.
Round 1) Fighter roll a hit but any one the transport roll a @1, then the battle is over.
1 Fighter and 1 transport are killed.
If none of the Transport nor the Fighter get a hit, then all the transports will be destroyed but the Fighter is still alive.
I don’t find it is better than the earlier idea above, but I think it is still different than knp’s HR on defenseless transport.
But 2 transports remained in the SZ.
I probably get a better idea here:
Still keep that possibility that transports in a group can roll 1def@1 and each transport have 1 hit value and are still chosen as last casualties.
When attacking the escort units of transports, the transports group is allowed to roll 1 defense @1 each round.
When there is no more escorting units for transports, each attacking unit which scores a hit against transports, in a given combat round, is now immuned from retaliation for the duration of this combat round.
So, as long as an attacking unit gets a succesful roll, this unit cannot be destroyed.
Example: 2 surviving Bombers can now attack 8 Transports, as it is the remnants of a larger fleet.
Under the 1 def@1 roll per transports group, CalC gives:
Overall %*: A. survives: 60.7% D. survives: 35% No one survives: 4.4%
Adding the immunization rule, it will still gives better odds for the attacker:
Round 1 : both Bombers get 4 or less, 2 transports are lost and no defense roll can be made.
Round 2: 1 hit and 1 miss, 1 transport is lost but 1 defense roll @1 can be made, let’s suppose a miss.
Round 3: 2 hits, 2 transports are lost and no defense roll allowed.
Round 4: no hit, 1 defense roll @1 allowed, let’s suppose a hit. 1 Bombers remains and 3 transports alive.
Round 5: 1 hit, no defense roll allowed (since, the only bomber is immuned). 1 bomber still in the air and 2 transports alive.
Round 6: no hit, 1 defense roll @1 allowed, let’s suppose a miss. 1 bomber still in the air and 2 transports alive.
Etc.
So, Transports can never get more than 1 hit per combat round.
And sometimes, get no defense roll (when all attacking units are successful).
This means, that any lonely transport can get an opportunity to roll for 1 defense @1, as long as it is not destroyed by the attackers.
Lonely attacking unit can have better odds of survival that way against a superior number of transports.
Mainly, if it keeps lucky and have successful rolls in a row.
While a massive attack will probably left more odds of rolling on defense.
Example: 6 Destroyers against 10 Transports.
As long as 1 attacking unit miss a target, the transports group can roll for a defense @1.
It is a somewhat particular mechanics, I agree.
But it gives a better protection to the attacker when there is few units, while it is practically the same effect against a massive attacking groups.
This can somehow solve the issue on opening battle without requiring the other rule about 2 transports together to get a defense roll @1.
We can rationalize this special restriction on the fact that attacking units with their greater offensive power can outguns any transport unit, such as a special preemptive attack.
And, since Transports are not actively defending against all units (as could be the case for warships and aircrafts), an attacking unit is only after 1 enemy unit at a time, so when it misses, the Transports group gets its opportunity to roll for defensive fire.
To the red islands concept, it’s novel, but surely much easier to pull off if you were to just pick up a Ruskie infantry unit on a British or American transport and sail them down, rather than building a navy to try and do it hehe. Even then, it doesn’t do you much good if you have a Soviet stronghold in the south pacific, but Germany takes your Capital :-D
To Baron, I like the transport ideas proposed. I’m sure that they would balance the game in favor of allies over OOB. Nice work
Ok… I give… you stated that you posted another game. I really enjoy seeing the different map perspectives that you show.
Ok… a few shots of good whiskey into it and I am wondering what fun it is when you have every possible counter already figured out. I need to read the PEBM rules and get owned by someone.
How do you start a game?
PBEM is great.
Basically it’s like this - first - you start a new thread in the forum and track down the last 5 digital number of topic, for example, 35907
Then register a dice server that helps you to roll dice - I use dice.tripleawarclub.org
You install the Atriple software, then choose PBEM.
Fill in you and your opponents’ email, enter the number as Topic ID
Choose the right forum (in our case Axis and Allies), enter your username and password.
have fun~
Ok… a few shots of good whiskey into it and I am wondering what fun it is when you have every possible counter already figured out.
Its like any game, why d0 old dudes play chess in the park? Even if you’ve played for years and know what you’re doing, a good game will keep you coming back. For me it comes down to player interaction and the dice. There is enough variation among players and enough variation in the individual dice rolls, that even if you have your strategy down pat, and understand the underlying principles, you can still get diced, and see all that careful planning get turned on its head. This is one of the reasons that Low Luck gameplay doesn’t do a whole lot for me. Because many times in an LL game, the margins get a lot slimmer and the dice swings are less dramatic, such that its possible to see much more static games, longer games, with more stalemates and foregone conclusions.
But even then, there is enough built in nostalgia for “playing with plastic army men” such that game the physical board will always have an appeal for me. The main hangup comes from the fact that demographically, there just aren’t as many players as one might hope. The pool is not as diverse as it might be either. Most of us skew a bit older (check the con videos and check out all that white hair haha!), and there aren’t many women playing either, which is unfortunate. So often, because the game takes such a long time to play, people will have to break off, to spend time with wives and girlfriends and kids and dogs, or sleep or hold down a job. And it just doesn’t leave nearly enough time to satisfy our desire to game continuously, unabated. That’s when something like the tripleA lobby or PBEM gaming comes into it.
Obviously I’d rather be playing with the plastic and the cardboard, and rolling the physical dice in someones living room, but more often than not, its just too hard to organize. And you frequently run into that situation where, only one person you know is willing to play a game like this, and maybe they are less experienced at it than you. Short of teaching new people how to play IRL, or, like Pygmalion, fashioning your perfect A&A partner out of nowhere, the computer is frequently the best way to keep up.
The PBEM option especially, can be great, since it allows you to break the game into a bunch of mini sessions, that don’t place so many time constraints on people. You can make a move or two moves a day, and get in your A&A fix, without having to slate a whole insomniac evening, or an entire weekend to play. 1942.2 has an advantage in PBEM (over say Global) because the 5 nation turn order allows you to play a round in basically 2 “moves” (ie. two times back and forth) once you get started.
G1 then UK1
J1 then US/Russia
Basically 2 email exchanges, and you’re through the round, so its possible to resolve the game in a few weeks usually.
But yeah, I can see where the question is coming from, after you’ve seen the same thing 100 times in a row, there is a definite need to spice things up and add variety. A bid can be helpful for this. Or House Rules that add more variability. Or playing with someone who is maybe less familiar with all the winning moves, so that you end up seeing situations on the board that you might not be used to playing. Even in a game like that though, if you start from a strong foundation, with sound principles, chances are you’re going to play a lot better and be able to exploit more of these weird situations when they arrive. And games are always more fun when you’re winning! haha
Started my first live game and we didn’t get into it too far before the whiskey rendered us unable to do minor math. :evil: I went for the 6 art and all (left 1 inf behind in Kar/Cau each) into West Russia, Germany followed with a carrier build and infantry. Britain went for 2 fighters, 2 art, 1 inf. japan went transports and Manchuria factory. America went carrier, 2 destroyers and 2 subs in the pacific. Even with the money Germany spent on the carrier, after round 2 the Germans are putting very high pressure on West Russia because their second round purchase was all infantry. Ukraine is pretty much untouchable at this point. Germany also moved the infantry out of finland/norway into Karelia. Britain was able to kick Germany out of Africa however got diced in the process (4 inf, 1 art, 1 fig, 1 bmb, 1 arm vs 2 inf 1 arm 1 art) which took two rounds to win and the Germans only missed once. Japan stacked all their infantry into China.
I don’t think it looks bad however I think I should have gone for the Atlantic build since now Germany can hit several areas with a pretty large navy however only two transports means it’s an empty threat. Unfortunately, we didn’t play past the Britain 2nd turn.
How in the world do you stop the infantry push by Germany when they stack all of their tanks and fighters into Ukraine? A strafe would be suicide since their units would be at maximum defensive ability. Caucasus is going to fall soon and West Russia right behind it. I’m looking at the map trying to figure out what I’ve done wrong. Russia was feeling brave in the second round and bought 2 arm, 2 inf and 2 art however I almost think the extra infantry would be a better choice. I just don’t see how trading territories with a few infantry is even an option. This is a battering ram! The four fighters from Britain will help however in one more move, Germany will push another dozen infantry to the front line and Russia/Britain will need to figure out an exit strategy.
Kirk S.
Ok, it’s official… I have not a clue how to play this game. I took Axis vs Hard AI Allies and after two moves, the Axis are in trouble. Ignore the fact that Germany lost West Russia and Baltic without a single loss by Russia. After 2nd Russian turn, Caucasus has 15 inf, 4 art, 5 arm and 2 aa. Even buying 9 inf (1 car for fun), Germany has insufficient fodder to hold Ukraine.
I have a feeling that the live game I played had a fair number of pieces that were misplaced due to the whiskey involved.
I must really place my pieces poorly because I am never in a position where I can trade a territory without losing ground. One step forwards, two steps backwards. :? I have no patience and end up spreading my pieces out so they can be picked off or not used together very well.
Kirk S.
Germany doesn’t need to hold Ukraine. The key for Germany is Lenningrad. Try to get that and hold it as fast as possible. Hope it works out for you :)
