Allies (general) strategy with a 14 (6 with some good luck) IPC bid.

[MarineIguana]

I think you’re generally on the right track. I’ve played at least 400 games of Revised and 50 games of 1942 2nd edition, against many top players.

• Bidding and buying in the Indian ocean does not substantially delay Japan’s deployment in Asia. I strongly believe that UK should buy 3 land in india and 2 fig in UK. Fighters go UK->Wrus->India. This maximizes India defense against land and threatens navy. By round 5-8 12+ fighters in india is tough for Japan to handle.

The problem with buying subs instead of land in india is that Japan can safely land in Yunnan and walk into India. A good Japan player is not going to put the navy in a position to be threatened by UK subs. The worst case scenario is that japan buys the necessary naval defense and lands in Manchuria that round.

• Bidding 1 infantry to egypt makes it safe from R1 german landing. Germany has few options to keep the med fleet alive. Most intermediate players will expose their med fleet to get sunk by 2 fig and 1 bomber. A strong German counter move is to purchase 1 carrier, attack UK cruiser with battleship + fig, land 1 inf in gibralter, attack sz15 destroyer with 2 air and end with 2 fig and 1 carrier off italy. The best allied response to this German opening is to hold egypt and land morocco R3.

• The key with Russia is to prevent germany from producing in Karelia. This is best done by stacking Wrus, purchasing something like 6 inf/1art every round, and trading Wrus. With optimal play from both Germany and Russia, Moscow should never fall before round 8 with zero support from UK and US. With UK/US pressure, Moscow can hold indefinitely. If you’re losing Moscow before round 8-10, it’s because 1. Russia actively trades with Germany but Germany has more air to efficiently trade profitably 2. Russia leaves its troops in a bad position that germany can attack at a profit. 3. Russia allows germany to produce in Karelia before round 5.

• A common mistake with intermediate players is wasting forces trading territories against someone with a larger airforce. The general order from most to least profitable: 1. attacking and stacking the territory, 2. attacking with 1 inf/many figthers, 3. attack retreat, 4. attacking with 2 inf/1fig. Intermediate players don’t take advantage of stacking a territory or attack retreat. For example, a russian player attacking 1 germany inf in belorussia with 2 inf/1fig. Even when Russia captures Belo, germany can counter with 1 inf and 4 fighters to recapture belo (if you do the math, it’s more profitable to trade with 1 inf and overwhelming air than 2 inf unless the territory value is >4).

• Your atlantic moves are on the right track, but you only need 2 carriers unless germany buys more fighters. If Germany plays suboptimally and buys more than 2 new fighters, UK or US can buy 1 extra fighter.
  UK: R1 2 art/1inf/2fig, R2 2inf/1art/2fig, R3 3 inf/2fig, R4 3 inf/2fig … continue until india falls.
  US: R1 2 dest/2bomb, R2 2 carrier/trans/land R3 trans/land

Expected optimal deployment is R3 morocco, R4 europe (mostly trading france and Northwest europe)
The reason for these purchases are to defend India and allow for allies to start trading in Europe starting Round 4.

• Short of going full Kill Japan First, the best way to slow Japan is to hold India. Japan would ideally like to land maximum land units and pressure Russia. Since fighters project pressure on both land and sea, a large stack of fighters can force Japan to buy unwanted navy. Making Japan buy an extra carrier is nearly the same as killing 2 inf and 2 art (14 IPC).

I know I brought up a lot of topics and may have used terminology that’s not familiar. Let me know if you have any questions. Good luck! : )

[LittleShea]

Hi thanks for the prompt reply…the game has not started … I have just been staring at the board for 6 hours trying to work smth out. Firstly just so I understand correctly, can a fighter fly to SZ17 and land on an Aircraft Carrier that has just been produced in Italy? Or I might misunderstand the German attack phase on the Destroyer?

[MarineIguana]

Yes, fighters are placed in the sea zone over where the carrier will be placed. This is different from Revised where the fighters are placed on the land (italy) adjacent to the sea zone.

[LittleShea]

Ok what I really need to know, is the “correct” way to play Russia in the first turn?

[MarineIguana]

Without any russia bid:
buy 4 inf, 3 art
1 inf/1 art/ 1fig Baltic states
All other land into Wrus
All eastern russia land moves west. leave nothing in bury
sub to sz7
remove cauc AA and place everything in Rus

Result: West russia is stacked, karelia is deadzoned, russia preserves units

My preference if you can get 12 bid. with 11 bid, replace art going to cauc with inf:
bid 3 art in cauc, rus, kar.
3 inf/2art/2tank/2fig ukraine
3 inf/2art belo
6 inf/2 tank/2art wrus
All eastern russia land moves west. leave nothing in bury
sub to sz7
place 4 units in cauc, rest in russia

Result: more aggressive. Karelia is deadzoned, west russia stacked

[LittleShea]

Cheers mate, I love the game and in some ways disappointed I haven’t worked this all out myself…maybe in another 396 games eh? I played professionally as a poker player for a bit before making it a serious hobby on the side. Ever need any tips on that front, feel free to email me on sheameehan@hotmail.com.

[guni-kid]

Keeping Moscow Soviet until round eight might be possible, even wihout ANY help from the Allies (which should start coming over the Atlantic by round four-five latest), but keeping the German from producing in Karelia until round five is basically impossible, if the German goes purchasing full land (mostly tanks and fighters) beginning G1. An example:

Soviet turn 1 takes West-Russia and Baltic States, stacking the first with almost everything available.

German turn 1 could bring up to 7 Inf and 3 tanks to Karelia (using the transport in the Baltic Sea), also taking Baltic States back and keeping his fighters close for defense. Then what? If the Soviet takes Karelia back wih the West-Russian stack and Caucasus with Soviet turn 1 purchase units, Caucasus is quite weakly stacked and Karelia in a heavy German deadzone… So whats left from the attack on the Soviet side is taken by G2: 5-6 tanks, 3-4 Inf, up to 8 figters… And that’s it with the Soviet stack and keeping Germany out of Karelia… So to be honest, I would consider opening up a south front with that Soviet stakc against a weakly defended Ukraine then… Or other stuff, but keeping Germany out of Karelia at all costs is taking the valuable Soviet units down too quickly… Why not taking Karelia back with the Allies, landing in Scandinavia turn 4-5 and attacking the German from round 5-6 on…

[MarineIguana]

@guni-kid:

Keeping Moscow Soviet until round eight might be possible, even wihout ANY help from the Allies (which should start coming over the Atlantic by round four-five latest), but keeping the German from producing in Karelia until round five is basically impossible, if the German goes purchasing full land (mostly tanks and fighters) beginning G1. An example:

I largely agree. Russia will be unable to deadzone karelia by around round 5. Germany produces 13 compared to Russia ~7-8.
I want to note it’s counter intuitive, but infantry are actually much stronger than tanks and fighters for offensive pressure. The reason is that with tank and fighter purchases, the stack doesn’t have the defensive power to move adjacent to the opponent’s stack.

@guni-kid:

Soviet turn 1 takes West-Russia and Baltic States, stacking the first with almost everything available.

Agreed

@guni-kid:

German turn 1 could bring up to 7 Inf and 3 tanks to Karelia (using the transport in the Baltic Sea), also taking Baltic States back and keeping his fighters close for defense. Then what? If the Soviet takes Karelia back wih the West-Russian stack and Caucasus with Soviet turn 1 purchase units, Caucasus is quite weakly stacked and Karelia in a heavy German deadzone… So whats left from the attack on the Soviet side is taken by G2: 5-6 tanks, 3-4 Inf, up to 8 figters… And that’s it with the Soviet stack and keeping Germany out of Karelia…

Trading heavily as you’re describing is decisively unfavorable for Russia. For the reason that 1. UK/USA can’t support until round 4 and 2. germany produces 13 vs 7-8 of Russia.

End of Russia R1, zero bid, attacking Baltic with 1inf/1art/1fig and stacking Wrus:
Wrus 9 inf/2art/4tank
Arch: 2 inf
Baltic states: 0 units or 1 art
Russia: 2 inf/2 fig/+purchases

If germany stacks Karelia R1 with 7 inf/3tanks counter stack karelia with 11 inf/2art/4tank/2fig. Attack-retreat for 1 round with expected outcome of 6 germany inf lost and 4 Russia inf lost. Russia has an even better trade if Russia gains an extra 1-2 artillery in the initial bid. If low luck, Russia should attack retreat 2 rounds and leave germany with 1 tank in Karelia.
With Russia R1 purchases moved to Wrus, Russia can continue to deadzone Karelia unless Germany makes some extremely aggressive purchases. Aggressive purchase caveat: I’ve worked out the math and Germany can stack Karleia R2-R3 only with something like 8 tank buys a turn R1 and R2. This makes it immensely weak vs UK/US R4.

@guni-kid:

So to be honest, I would consider opening up a south front with that Soviet stakc against a weakly defended Ukraine then… Or other stuff, but keeping Germany out of Karelia at all costs is taking the valuable Soviet units down too quickly… Why not taking Karelia back with the Allies, landing in Scandinavia turn 4-5 and attacking the German from round 5-6 on…

If properly played, Russia can trade Karelia on attractive terms if Germany attempts to stack (e.g. kill 6 for 4 inf). Preventing Germany from producing in Karelia is essential or else Germany can produce 15 units a turn with the 2 on Karelia immediately applying pressure.
Ukraine is not as important because 1. it doesn’t have a factory 2. Russia can deadzone from either WRus or Cauc. These 2 territories are strong points of Russia due to production proximity and projection of influence across many territories.

Guni-kid, I think you are on the right track with understanding Germany pressure on Russia. My intention is to show the optimal Russia response to demonstrate why it’s not straightforward for Germany to directly kill Russia starting R1. The scenarios I discussed above are why aggressive Germany purchases (e.g. 8 tanks) and movements (e.g. trying to stack karelia or Ukr R1) are almost never seen between top players. These plays have reliable counters that leave the player at a disadvantage.

The Germany optimal line among top players is to buy 13 units a round, stack France with fighters, and stack baltic states with inf and poland with tanks and just enough infantry to trade ukraine. This is done until Karelia can be safely stacked.

The Russia optimal line is to purchase inf/art, stack Wrus, trade efficiently (e.g. trade Ukr/Belo with 2 fig/1 inf instead of 2 inf/1fig), and deadzone Karelia until R4 when UK/US can apply pressure on Germany.

[guni-kid]

@MarineIguana:

Trading heavily as you’re describing is decisively unfavorable for Russia. For the reason that 1. UK/USA can’t support until round 4 and 2. germany produces 13 vs 7-8 of Russia.

End of Russia R1, zero bid, attacking Baltic with 1inf/1art/1fig and stacking Wrus:
Wrus 9 inf/2art/4tank
Arch: 2 inf
Baltic states: 0 units or 1 art
Russia: 2 inf/2 fig/+purchases

Agreed on this just the same  :-) I would just take 2 or even 3 Inf to the attack on the Baltic states to definitely take it (brings the IPCs, blocks a heavy movement from Germany and forces him to attack there as well)

If germany stacks Karelia R1 with 7 inf/3tanks counter stack karelia with 11 inf/2art/4tank/2fig. Attack-retreat for 1 round with expected outcome of 6 germany inf lost and 4 Russia inf lost. Russia has an even better trade if Russia gains an extra 1-2 artillery in the initial bid. If low luck, Russia should attack retreat 2 rounds and leave germany with 1 tank in Karelia.
With Russia R1 purchases moved to Wrus, Russia can continue to deadzone Karelia unless Germany makes some extremely aggressive purchases. Aggressive purchase caveat: I’ve worked out the math and Germany can stack Karleia R2-R3 only with something like 8 tank buys a turn R1 and R2. This makes it immensely weak vs UK/US R4.

I have to admit the attack retreat option is a good one and it takes some guts to do it… That’s probably why only experienced players use it.

The Germany optimal line among top players is to buy 13 units a round, stack France with fighters, and stack baltic states with inf and poland with tanks and just enough infantry to trade ukraine. This is done until Karelia can be safely stacked.

The Russia optimal line is to purchase inf/art, stack Wrus, trade efficiently (e.g. trade Ukr/Belo with 2 fig/1 inf instead of 2 inf/1fig), and deadzone Karelia until R4 when UK/US can apply pressure on Germany.

That’s agreed upon as well. If you meant this deadzoning alas attack-retreat on Karelia, then we’re on the same page here. The thing is, that I basically played against intermediate Axis players so far but man, this board plays you hard as Allies if you make a mistake! Good talking about the advanced strategies and I will definitely try some stuff next time.

[theROCmonster]

First off with a 14 bid I would really have to think about giving UK a sub off india and US a destroyer off the east coast and going 100% kill Japan first. You will have to divert a fighter down to Egypt on the first turn, but being able to go KJF seems too nice to pass up.

First turn Russia buy should always be 4 inf and 2 tanks. The 2 tanks stop Germany from doing anything crazy the first turn, and if you take heavy losses in West Russia you can still stop a Karelia stack, hopefully.

Besides that I think everyone else has it correct.

[Oddbjoern]

Havent done this myself yet, but what is the feeling regarding using the 14 IPC for a UK naval buy in sz7, a destoyer + sub? Dont know the rules for biding that well, but can you perhaps buy a carrier and land the 2 UK fighters pre-round1?

[Witt]

The  rules for bidding  is whatever the two sides can agree upon. That said, most here would only allow one unit per territory or SZ and only where one of that nation already exists.
Of course you could have a Carrier, but it could be destroyed before you used it, of course.