Morning Knp.
The Italians had no inclination to fight the British and even less the Americans, when they joined the war.
There was also a massive class divide between Officers and the enlisted man. This made morale very low and did not help create a fighting force. Italians were happy to be left alone.
The Italian army was also a foot one. Hardly any units were motorised and that would prove a problem in the vast expanses of desert and the seesaw nature of the campaign.
The British were lucky when they attacked in Dec of 1940 as they had only had limited objectives. The advance was so uncontested, that they kept going until they had Benghazi and Tobruk.
Being Italian, I love to laugh at my WW2 army’s dismal performances and unwillingness to throw their lives away for someone else’s glory.
When the Italians switched sides, however, things got very bloody as civil war broke out amongst the Fascists and Communists. Many Italians proved they were not afraid of dying once they had a real cause and future in which they believed.
My dad’s dad was in Africa, Russia and later ran and hid from the Fascists in Tuscany.
Rules question
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on page 20 of my Europe rule book it says…
Specific to Sea Battles: In both steps 3 and 4,
submarines that fired in step 2 can’t fire again during the
same combat round. If there is an enemy destroyer in the
battle, submarines fire in step 3 or 4 rather than step 2.
Remember that in sea battles hits from air units can’t be assigned to submarines unless there is a destroyer present
that is friendly to the air units in the battle, and hits
can only be assigned to transports if there are no other
eligible units.so I’ve got a problem with the words “friendly to the air units in the battle” as it doesn’t specify wether the rules were meant to read “friendly to the attacking air units”.
The way it reads in the rule book (to me anyways) is if a strategic bomber was attacking 1 destroyer and 1 sub, and the defender decided to scramble 1 fighter to defend the sea zone… than the defender could use the submarine as a casualty if the attacking Strategic Bomber hits.
Am I wrong?
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Yes, you are wrong. The intent of the rule is that subs can only be hit by air units if a destroyer that is friendly to the attacking air units is in the sz. Why would a DD that is friendly to the sub or subs help the opposing air unit locate can kill said sub(s)?
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@Young:
on page 20 of my Europe rule book it says…
…
so I’ve got a problem with the words “friendly to the air units in the battle” as it doesn’t specify wether the rules were meant to read “friendly to the attacking air units”.The way it reads in the rule book (to me anyways) is if a strategic bomber was attacking 1 destroyer and 1 sub, and the defender decided to scramble 1 fighter to defend the sea zone… than the defender could use the submarine as a casualty if the attacking Strategic Bomber hits.
Am I wrong?
OK, I understand what you mean.
We are talking about the “Can’t be hit by Air Units” issue of submarines.
@rulebook:
Can’t Be Hit by Air Units: When attacking or defending,
hits scored by air units can’t be assigned to submarines
unless there is a destroyer that is friendly to the air units
in the battle.That means to me:
If the attacker has a destroyer supporting his fighter’s attack,
a hit scored by the attacker’s fighter could be assigned to a defender’s submarine.If the defender has a destroyer supporting his (scrambled) fighter’s defense,
a hit scored by the (scrambled) fighter could be assigned to an attacker’s submarine
(if there is one)._I think the rule does NOT say:
If the defender has a destroyer supporting his (scrambled) fighter’s defense,
a hit scored by the attacker’s fighter - without DD support - could be assigned
to a defender’s submarine._ -
Attacking or Defending actually it doesn’t really matter. The side that is “Rolling†must have a DD for their planes to hit subs. This happens in SZ 111 a lot when Germany attacks with the Luftwaffe and subs. If UK scrambles a fighter and loses their DD in the first round and the battle continues to another round then UK cannot hit the subs with their plane anymore because their DD is gone and they force Germany to lose a plane instead of a sub if they roll a hit with their plane.
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There are 2 parts to this issue…
1. Can I attack subs with air units?
and…
2. Can I use subs as caualties against air units?
I think we all understand that attacking air units can’t hit subs unless there is an attacking destroyer present. However, when it comes to the second question, the rules state that…
Can’t Be Hit by Air Units: When attacking or defending,
hits scored by air units can’t be assigned to submarines
unless there is a destroyer that is friendly to the air units
in the battle.So if a player wants to use subs as casualties and save their surface warships from attacking air units, then all they need is 1 defending destroyer and 1 defending air unit in order to remove defending subs from attacking air units.
The rule above supports this, and I can’t go to an opponent with an argument about what the rule intended, so I need to know for sure and where I can find it writen.
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Thanks Shadow,
I think I figured it out… The key words here are…
Can’t Be Hit by Air Units: When attacking or defending,
hits scored by air units can’t be assigned to submarines
unless there is a destroyer that is friendly to the air units
in the battle.…so the air units in battle are refering to the air units that are doing the hitting… right?
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@Young:
I think we all understand that attacking air units can’t hit subs unless there is an attacking destroyer present. However, when it comes to the second question, the rules state that…
Can’t Be Hit by Air Units: When attacking or defending,
hits scored by air units can’t be assigned to submarines
unless there is a destroyer that is friendly to the air units
in the battle.These two mentions of “air units” are referencing the same air units– i.e. the ones that scored hits against the side with subs in the sea zone need to have a destroyer present for the other side to be able to assign those hit(s) to said subs. For air units to be able to hit subs at all, whether you want to or not, you must have a destroyer also fighting on your side. In an attack, only your own destroyer would be participating in the battle, so a friendly one in the zone would NOT let you hit subs. If you were defending, either your or a friendly destroyer would grant your planes the capability to hit subs.
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@Young:
Can’t Be Hit by Air Units: When attacking or defending,
hits scored by air units can’t be assigned to submarines
unless there is a destroyer that is friendly to the air units
in the battle.…so the air units in battle are refering to the air units that are doing the hitting… right?
Correct!
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Attacking or Defending actually it doesn’t really matter. The side that is “Rolling†must have a DD for their planes to hit subs. This happens in SZ 111 a lot when Germany attacks with the Luftwaffe and subs. If UK scrambles a fighter and loses their DD in the first round and the battle continues to another round then UK cannot hit the subs with their plane anymore because their DD is gone and they force Germany to lose a plane instead of a sub if they roll a hit with their plane.
Same as in SZ110, which has no DD to begin with.
If UK scrambles, all hits that the scramblers score have to be German aircraft. Unless ofc Germany brought its BB into that battle… Reason I guess why Germany wants to extremely overpower this battle. I know -I- am ;-). -
It could have been worded better IMO.
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