oh but I am saying I was (and also this is) WRONG
the attacker decides and performs something, then the defender decides and performs something
no more after that
going down the line of OOB model of attacker declare than defender declare…
defender’s retreat might be caused by on attacker’s decision to press on
if the attacker can then retreat after the defender retreat, defender should be able to reassess and chose to remain…
btw this is for general combat
for naval combat we’ll consider a break-off rule later
ok
@Imperious:
battleships should only be preemtive unless another battleship is present. In naval combat Battleships fight each other and take hits off each other. All other ships fight each other except transports cannot be taken as loses unless no other ships are left.
The only change in your description is BB (battleship) do not fire preemptively when enemy BB is present.
This is like the once sugguested “air units fire preemptively only during air superiority”. It actually has no effect.
Or maybe I am missing something.
you got it right… they fire preemt only if no enemy BB is present.
I think this should be for Bombers and heavy tanks
bombers fire preemtively if no enemy planes are present
heavy tanks fire preemtively unless the enemy has heavy tanks.
what you think?
Ok this is what I am thinking.
Whether enemy has Battleships your Battleships still out range Destroyers.
So when 5 BB + 1 DD –-attack—> 1 BB + 1 DD…
defender having 1 BB shouldn’t stop defender’s fleet from getting annihilated before defender’s DD can fire.
bombers fire preemtively if no enemy planes are present
Yeah you probably read the other thread by now. Air units fire preempetive regardless already.
heavy tanks fire preemtively unless the enemy has heavy tanks
Recall you wanted SS Panzer Heavy Tanks to have this ability but not normal Heavy Tanks.
I understand Heavy Tanks like Tiger out range normal Tanks by far. But if anything shouldn’t Artillery have even greater range?
@Wikipedia:
Tigers were reported to have knocked out enemy tanks at ranges greater than a mile (1,600 m), although most WW2 engagements were fought at much closer range.
Ok add those rules (in cases where they dont allready apply)
we should just forget SS panzers and consider them heavy tanks instead with the preemtive attack. That way its generic for all nations and not some special thing.
We can introduce a special german NA for SS panzers that further elaborates what the SS did in the war and solve it that way.
Quoted from the NA’s topic;
SS (submarine) 8 IPC, 2/2, move 2
DD (destroyer) 8 IPC, 2/2, move 3
CA (cruiser) 12 IPC, 3/3, move 3
CV (carrier) 16 IPC, 1/3, move 3 (2 hits)
BB (battleship) 20 IPC, 4/4, move 2 (2 hits)
Can we go with this proposed change in CA and DD costs? So that the Pocket battleship and UK Battlecruisers NA’s can excist?
Yea i love those values. I vote for them as well …. except cruisers take one hit? Carriers and cruisers were built on the same hull and the cruiser has better protection on its deck.
Also destroyers should move 2 otherwise subs are totally outclassed.
SS (submarine) 8 IPC, 2/2, move 2
DD (destroyer) 8 IPC, 2/2, move 2 (3 if machted with CV)
CA (cruiser) 12 IPC, 3/3, move 3 (2hits)
CV (carrier) 16 IPC, 1/3, move 3 (2 hits)
BB (battleship) 20 IPC, 4/4, move 2 (2 hits)
Like this then. DD only move of 3 when matched with CV, CA remain 2 hits.
I don’t agree yet. I hope we are not making a change just to cater for Pocket Battleship and Battlecrusier NA.
Even moving at 2, DD (destroyer) still outclass SS (submarine) because DD has ASW, AA and can screen.
Both DD/CA (destroyer/crusier) is cheaper makes SS not much use.
And wolf pacK is also less likely to activate with DD costing the same as SS.
You need some good statistics to convince me for this one.
No, no, not “just” for the NA’s, in my last proposal I maked the CA a 2 hit again… So no NA’s possible… I hear yah on the DD and SS… But I hope you also agree that a 12IPC 2/2 DD is to much. New proposal;
SS (submarine) 8 IPC, 2/2, move 2
DD (destroyer) 10 IPC, 2/2, move 2 (3 if machted with CV)
CA (cruiser) 14 IPC, 3/3, move 3 (2hits)
CV (carrier) 16 IPC, 1/3, move 3 (2 hits)
BB (battleship) 20 IPC, 4/4, move 2 (2 hits)
DD is 10, and CA is 14 now. OK?
This is a more modest change.
I would put the DD back to move 3 to reduce the complexity.
And see we wait and see what Imperious has to add.
SS (submarine) 8 IPC, 2/2, move 2
DD (destroyer) 10 IPC, 2/2, move 2 (3 if machted with CV)
CA (cruiser) 14 IPC, 3/3, move 3 (2hits)
CV (carrier) 16 IPC, 1/3, move 3 (2 hits)
BB (battleship) 20 IPC, 4/4, move 2 (2 hits)
This looks better except Cruisers should be at 15 IPC, or destroyers are not looking too good.
dd=10
ca=15
bb=20
you don’t feel like putting DD back to move of 3?
Destroyers should really be at 2 move they were not as fast as crusers and carriers. Besides battleships will not have a ‘little buddy’ if we make 3 ships going 3.
Are you sure?
At a glance (wikipedia examples) Fletcher class destroyer, Alaska class cruiser and Essex/Midway class aircraft carrier all travelled 30-35knots.
I think we went through this already when we first made DD (destroyer), CA (cruiser) and CV (aircraft carrier) move 3…and left BB (battleship) and SS (submarine) at 2.
ok fine let them move 3 with carriers.
someone could double check though
*check more classes
*check speed + range
Research: :wink:
A destroyer weight from 1000 to 3000 tons. She sails fast, up to 40 knots. She is the fastest ship in the fleet. Her weak point is the range. Whereas a battleship or a cruiser can sail 10 000 miles upward, the destroyer can hardly put more than 1000 or 2000 miles, a couple of days of sailing. That forced the task forces during the war to perform lengthy and dangerous fueling operations, where either fleet tankers or bigger ships (carriers, battleships) gave away part of their fuel to the guzzling destroyers.
(source: http://users.swing.be/navbat/edito/navires/typesnavires.htm )
This means they where really fast, but lacked the range… So what will it be? 3 or 2
Yes but you did read the note about their limited range?
They used alot of fuel and they were not used on long range combat missions. I think they can go at 3 but they have to be with carriers or cruisers. They have to be escorting the larger ships. I dont want groups of them hunting around the world in packs. Just make the rules say they move at 3 with carriers and cruisers only.
If too many ships move 3 it will make the other ships become useless. IN fact i would only make the carriers move 3 alone…but i know that is not a majority opinion.
