AARHE: Phase 2: Naval Combat

[tekkyy]

Need to double check the level of deployment of these swimming tanks to see whethre its under the level of abstraction in AA.

But there is a place for sure a unit in our amphibious assault rules!  8-)
These tanks would actually fight from first round!

Our current rule is that only attacking INF fights in the first round of land combat in an amphibous assault.

ARM and ART fights from second round and only if there are surviving attacking INF in the first round.
This is to model the capturing of the beach, without which the slow offloading of tanks and artillery from landing craft would make them sitting ducks.
This is probably the reason why historically infantry were the first waves in amphibious assault.

[Gen AlexanderPatch]

See… I didn’t even see those rules… So we need a compilation. Btw I saw Phase 1; is there still room for changes?

[Imperious Leader]

room for changes only after phase 2 and 3 are complete… we then we scour the entire document with a fine tooth comb.

[Gen AlexanderPatch]

Ok

[tekkyy]

oh yeah we need to formalise naval combat antiair

current the these units are assign antiair values

Cruiser (CA) 4
Destroyer (DD) 2
Battleship (BB) 1
Carrier (CV) 1

SS (submarine) and AP (transport) have no antiair capabilities

just let these units in opening-fire in every round roll a dice hitting on 4, 2, 1, and 1 respectively?

[Adonai]

I think CA makes more sense for CArrier that Cruiser.

Perhaps add for the Amphibious tanks “cannot move more than 1 (or 2) SZs from a coast”. It doesn’t seem realistic to have a tank moving across the Atlantic or Pacific.

[Imperious Leader]

oh yeah we need to formalise naval combat antiair

current the these units are assign antiair values

Cruiser (CA)  4
Destroyer (DD)  2
Battleship (BB)  1
Carrier (CV)  1

SS (submarine) and AP (transport) have no antiair capabilities

just let these units in opening-fire in every round roll a dice hitting on 4, 2, 1, and 1 respectively?

Yes exactly! but was this the correct value?  was it not:

Cruiser (CA)  4
Destroyer (DD)  2
Battleship (BB)  2
Carrier (CV)  1

[tekkyy]

@Adonai:

I think CA makes more sense for CArrier that Cruiser.

Sorry I didn’t explain earlier.
The abbreviations of naval units are US hull classifications.

Yes exactly! but was this the correct value?  was it not:

Cruiser (CA)  4
Destroyer (DD)  2
Battleship (BB)  2
Carrier (CV)  1

ok sure

anyway, but is it too powerful?
a Cruiser fleet, 66% chance of downing an air division, every cycle of combat

[Imperious Leader]

Cruiser (CA)  3
Destroyer (DD)  2
Battleship (BB)  2
Carrier (CV)  1

ok you like this?

[tekkyy]

I duno.
I only hear 10% of downed planes are due to land antiaircraft, 90% by enemy planes.

I have no idea whats the breakdown for naval combat.

[Guerrilla Guy]

Why don’t you make it a flat “1” and just increase the amount of die each ship rolls?

GG

[Imperious Leader]

I suppose that can be done except that demonstates purely a quantity thing. Id go with that ok:

Cruiser (CA)  4
Destroyer (DD)  2
Battleship (BB)  3
Carrier (CV)  2

= rolls each ship makes before attack

example: 4 enemy planes are attacking a BB and 3 destroyers. Each destroyer can sheild the BB at the rate of 1/1… thus each of 3 destroyers are allocating potential hits with the 4th plane getting a possible shot on the BB. Each destroyer in turn takes 2 rolls of D6 for a total of 6 rolls… yeilding 1 hit… the BB rolls seperately and also hits.

thus out of 4 planes 2 are shot down. The BB shot down its plane so it cannot be hit this round.

next each plane attacks: yeilding 2 hits… 2 destroyers are lost.

we are left with one bb and one destroyer.

the attacker wants to attack again…

each plane must go against each ship because the remaining destroyer is sheilding the BB.

both surface ships roll seperatly 2 rolls each… all misses

each plane now fires and again gets two hits!

the destroyer is sunk and the BB is also hit ( takes 2 hits)

the defender decides to retreat… end of battle.

this is how it would go. I like it as well. its just alot of dice rolling…

[Guerrilla Guy]

Wasn’t that was available? More firepower? Some ships had more guns, flat rate of hit, more chances to hit… Makes sense to me…

GG

[tekkyy]

ok sounds good

note the percentages are now…

CA 4 * 1/6 = 66%
BB 3 * 1/6 = 50%
DD 2 * 1/6 = 33%
CV 2 * 1/6 = 33%

[Imperious Leader]

ok good add it to the file. thanks Tekky!  8-)

[Adonai]

That looks great.

A small concern - As UK in a game I’m currently playing with Botider I sent a DD after his Japanese transport first turn as UK. The DD was sunk, and the transport lived! Now this may half be that I’m angry, but I don’t think that makes sense. How can a transport group sink destroyers? Throw food at them?

[tekkyy]

yep we thought about that too

we made it that transport can’t hurt anything but transports

hits by heavy units go against heavy units first
hits by light units go against light units first

can’t use sack transports
(Can’t imagine transports dashing out in front of a Battleship taking hits for it can you?)

even more importantly submarines can’t hurt submarines in WWII
(Well, I thought it was important…so I pushed to convince them to include it in Phase 1 when everything else can still flaky)

in the current draft…

Naval Combat Hit Allocation

SS hits must be allocated on non-SS naval units.
BB and CV hits must be allocated on BB or CV first, then CA or DD, finally AP.
CA and DD hits must be first allocated on CA or DD first, then BB or CV, finally AP.
AP hits must be allocated on AP.

WWII Submarines did not have anti-submarine nor antiaircraft capabilities.
Capital ships are primary targets in a naval battle. Different classes of warships have their role.

[Adonai]

That’s good. Wish it had been in use during my game  :-)

[tekkyy]

in LHTR 1.3, submarines can’t submerge if enemy destroyer is present

can AARHE submarines submerge and withdraw from combat if enemy has destroyers or cruisers present?

the other thread about submarine submering http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=7275.0 shown some ideas

*submarine chance to move through enemy SZ with destroyer/crusier - we could have that, but don’t think we need to force all submarines to fight when some submarines are detected

*detection model - our draft at the moment each DD can target one SS with search dice as well as attack dice…I think we may need to change it to each DD rolls as many search dice as enemy SS, but can only roll an attack dice against one detected SS

*number of DDs don’t make detection easier - is this more or less realistic?

*“submerge time limit” and “submerge in non-combat” - probably not needed, submarines can only remain submerged for hours, so that would be tactical level. I think the OOB rule of resurfacing at the end of the turn is good enough leaving “submerge” meaning “submerge and retreat” rather than “submerge and remain submerged for months”

[Imperious Leader]

That is 100% correct.

Tekky is their anything left for naval combat?

aside from the DIV, NAV problems?