Rethinking Air Units

[baron Münchhausen]

@knp7765:

I also don’t like when running an SBR that a lucky shot from the AA kills your bomber with nothing to show for it. I had an idea a while back of giving the bomber full damage roll if the AA gun misses and half damage roll if the bomber is hit by AA fire.
So if you take a bomber on an SBR and the AA gun hits it, you still roll 1 die and get half the number rolled (rounding UP). So the least you could get is 1 damage on the enemy factory. So if your hit bomber rolls a 1, obviously you can’t put 1/2 damage point on the factory so you get 1 damage point. If you roll a 3, you get 2 points of damage. If you roll a 5, then you get 3 points of damage.
At least this way while you are out a 12 IPC bomber, at least the enemy has to pay a little to repair his factory so it’s not a total loss.

@ColonelCarter:

@Der:

What if Strategic bombers attacked @ 2 or even 1? Do you think people would still buy them @ 12 IPCs for strategic bombing purposes? Or is attacking @ 3 enough? I might still attack units with them @3 because of their superior range.

I don’t care for it either. It’s clumsy, forces you to roll them separately, and requires the extra restriction against sea attack. Reducing their normal attack to 2 I think could work for the combat department. They can still work if you need a tad extra firepower, but they’ll generally deal more damage on SBR. Attacking @1 would definitely warrant a reduction in cost; you might have to reduce them to 11 anyway for attacking @2.
Though this could solve the fact that people avoid SBR since it could cost them their expensive, high-powered bomber, another problem I feel is that instead of losing ~1/6 of your bomber squadron each raid, there’s just a 1/6 chance you’ll lose the entire squadron to Anti-Aircraft fire (before they even drop a bomb!), which is a bit absurd.
Maybe give Strat Bombers a damage counter (attack @1, can’t SBR when damaged), and change AA (against SBR) to rolling a die and dealing shown # damage on a 1-3?(Radar roll 2 dice) Then you can pay 1 IPC per damage to repair them like factories.

Hmm…

Instead of lowering cost, I would rather increase the SBR damage on ICs.
Because some people above showed that it is counter-intuitive to give the same cost to Fg and StB (such as 10 IPCs).
In addition, it is possible to give a consolation prize for destroyed StB.
There will be no need of creating a complex system on damaged bombers.

What about this really dangerous Strategic bomber and all the other aircraft units?
I’m pretty sure anybody getting one will commit to SBR and nothing else.

High Altitude Strategic Bomber, 4 engines bombers
A2 D1 C12 M6-7,
cannot do Naval attack,
SBR damage 2D6,
SBR damage 1D6 if destroyed by IC’s AAA,
No damage if destroyed by Fg interceptor.
A1 D0 in air-to-air combat

Long range Medium Bomber, 2 engines bombers (basically near the same as OOB StB but less SBR damage: not 1D6+2)
A4 D1 C12 M6-7
SBR damage 1D6,
No damage if destroyed by IC’s AAA or Fg interceptor.
A1 D0 in air-to-air combat
Can land 1 unit only on a Carrier if a new Medium Bomber is put on board a Carrier during the place unit phase.

Tactical Bomber
A4 D3 C10 M4-5
No SBR damage,
TBR damage D6 (Tactical Bombing Raid against AB or NB as G40 OOB)
A1 D1 in air-to-air combat
(A1 D0 if playing G40, cannot intercept incoming bombers)
Can do interception, in 1942.2 settings.
Can do escort mission with either Medium Bombers or HAStBs
Can land 2 units on a Carrier.

Fighter
A3 D4 C10 M4-5
A1 D2 in air-to-air combat (higher than G40 OOB: A1 D1)
Can do interception.
Can do escort mission with all bombers.
Can land 2 units on a Carrier.

The additional Move point is for Air Base.

---

I said No Naval attack for StB but I think it is unnecessary.

The low attack factor @2 is enough deterrent and can really figure their effectiveness compared to @3 or @4 of Fg and TcB in Naval operations.

QUESTIONS: Do you thing the cost of such HAStB should be higher? Around 14 or 15 IPCs?
And should they be able to bombard Air Base and Naval Base? At 2D6/1D6 if hit? Or only 1D6+2/zero if hit?

Medium bomber gets only D6 when bombing Air Base and Naval Base (same as TcB but lower than G40 OOB StB).

[baron Münchhausen]

I increased the SBR air combat values of Fgs and TcBs to provide some counter-measure to the High Altitude Strategic Bomber because HAStB can still make SBR damage if destroyed by IC’s AAA.

Now, Fighter have a double defense value (and TcB can make interceptions if playing 1942.2).
Fg defend @2 (while TcB defend @1 if playing 1942.2).

On the other side, Fgs and TcBs can be use as escort planes for Medium and High Altitude Strategic Bomber.
All units attack @1 (as G40 OOB).

There is no need to have an Air Base or Naval Base with the Industrial Complex to attack with Tactical Bombers as it was the case OOB.
The TcBs don’t have to submit to AAA from IC or AB & NB if they don’t commit on a Tactical bombing raid upon AB or NB.
The owning player must say his intention for TcBs’ objective at the start of the Air Raid.

[Jennifer]

This is SPECIFICALLY why I said I didn’t want to get into the math of it.  Best of 2@4 is slightly better than 1@5.  I don’t like @5 because no other unit in the game has an @5 chance - period.  However, there was an Alpha rule that had best of 2@4 and so we can infer that Larry would be okay with making an adjustment that increases the price of the unit but gives them the 2@4 rule.

That is all I am getting at there.

As for price, if 15 IPC per bomber was okay back in Classic when there was significantly less IPC available in any given game, I fail to see why it is unacceptable now when 15 IPC is chump change, mere walking around IPC, on this board.  Especially if we outfit the bomber to have the innate ability to carry infantry to battle and do significantly more SBR damage than they could in classic (1d6+2 means no less than 3 IPC per hit) and keep them safe from AA Guns and make them the only unit able to do SBR.

I also did not read the article, but from what I understand the G4M “Betty” does not really fit any classification of aircraft as we use them in our game.  It was unarmored, long range, high flying bomber, but it didn’t carry a lot of bombs and was part of the navy - despite being land based.  It sounds like a mix of the Tactical Bomber and the Strategic Bomber taking the worst from both, IMHO.

In my opinion, it would be better to look at the G3M instead, which was a bomber that could carry more ordinance and was used in a more strategic role against the Chinese and SE Asia.  Note, again, this bomber wasn’t really used as an Anti-American surface fleet bomber - despite that it COULD be outfitted with torpedoes and used as a torpedo plane.

In any case, I really look at the strategic bomber like the B-17.  It was great at carpet bombing enemy infantry units, enemy cities, enemy factories, enemy rail yards.  It wasn’t all that great at bombing enemy submarines or enemy destroyers.  I explain this in an effort to help you understand why I am arguing for certain changes over other ones - not because I think you should agree with my opinions.  I can’t force you to be correct, you know. lol (that’s a joke!)

So to reiterate:

Strategic Bomber
Game Role:  Mass Damage, High Altitude Bombing OR Airborne Delivery Vehicles
Specials:

• May Conduct SBR (only unit that can) - 1d6+2 dmg
• Immune to AA Gun Fire
• +2 Range (compared to all other air vehicles)
• 90% accuracy in ground combat (rounded of course.  You figure out if you want best of 2@4 or 1@5 or 1d10 @ 9 or less or you want to stick the die in your nose and blow it out, I DONT CARE! :P  )
• May carry 1 infantry as a paratrooper instead of attacking a territory
• No defense value (may still be a casualty, but defense like a transport in other regards.)
  Cost: 15 IPC

[baron Münchhausen]

So I bet that you rather put this HAStB unit at 15 IPCs instead of 12, isn’t Cmdr Jen?
Maybe the range should also be increase to M7-8?

High Altitude Strategic Bomber, 4 engines bomber
A2 D1 C12 C15 M6-7, M7-8
cannot do Naval attack,
SBR damage 2D6,
SBR damage 1D6 if destroyed by IC’s AAA,
No damage if destroyed by Fg interceptor.
A1 D0 in air-to-air combat

But B-17 were they that accurate?
I rather think that Medium bombers like B-25 were more precise.

I input Betty bombers because I think it is the IJN sculpt for StB in the actual game.

[crusaderiv]

Too much math….loosing time to play…

[Jennifer]

Good with the increased range.

Prefer if the bomber did 2@2 attack damage (per bomber) but make it defense 0.  Bombers on the tarmac were targets, they were not defending themselves. :P

[toblerone77]

Well I apologize to Colnel Carter and Baron Munchausen. I’m no mathametician and I was incorrect. I apologize mostly to Der Kuenstler for derailing his thread. Asked for an official ruling from Krieghund and the Heavy Bombers tech is to be rolled seperate per bomber.

[toblerone77]

Has anyone considered changing the SB to 3D6@1 for attack one round of combat only and leaving 1D6@1 for defense?
It simulates a big payload but full of inaccurate bombs and still leaves it still available for traditional combat at land and sea.

The SBR rules could be left OOB. IMO this is a good way to stimulate the role of the Strat bomber.

For those that have custom units you could assign the current OOB stats of the Strat Bomber to planes like HBG’s B25 and other equivalent pieces.

Just an idea.

[lozmoid]

I like that idea! Strat Bombers firing 3 dice @ 1 and all hits count, it’s cool! :)

[toblerone77]

Thought of some rules for aircraft DK. Not sure if it helps but,  here goes…

All aircraft OOB stats remain the same except:

Fighters may only hit other aircraft unless there are no defending aircraft present. Or all defending aircraft have been eliminated.

Strategic bombers can still attack any unit in the game except,  pardon the pun, they attack by bombardment just like the battleship.  One round 1D6@4. They still remain in combat and can be taken as a casualty but the give only an opening bombardment. While defending they roll thier normal 1D6@1 and defend normally…

Just some ideas.

[baron Münchhausen]

@toblerone77:

Thought of some rules for aircraft DK. Not sure if it helps but,  here goes…

All aircraft OOB stats remain the same except:

Fighters may only hit other aircraft unless there are no defending aircraft present. Or all defending aircraft have been eliminated.

**Strategic bombers can still attack any unit in the game except,  pardon the pun, they attack by bombardment just like the battleship. ** One round 1D6@4. They still remain in combat and can be taken as a casualty but the give only an opening bombardment. While defending they roll thier normal 1D6@1 and defend normally…

Just some ideas.

Very interesting ideas. Funny thread. There is many differents ideas presented.
I just noted you said only attacking fighter hit directly defending aircraft present. Why isn’t two ways? Is it at OOB value? If the case, then it is far more provocative than my little Fg unit A1 firs strike D2, hitting directly enemy’s plane.

By the way, apology accepted, it was no big deal upon me.

[Der Kuenstler]

Yes all interesting - I already bought my tac bombers from HBG - have them ready. But I probably won’t use them for a while so my little game group doesn’t mutiny from too many new rules at once. I’ll have time to mull on these ideas…

[baron Münchhausen]

@toblerone77:

Has anyone considered changing the SB to 3D6@1 for attack one round of combat only and leaving 1D6@1 for defense?
It simulates a big payload but full of inaccurate bombs and still leaves it still available for traditional combat at land and sea. The SBR rules could be left OOB. IMO this is a good way to stimulate the role of the Strat bomber.

For those that have custom units you could assign the current OOB stats of the Strat Bomber to planes like HBG’s B25 and other equivalent pieces.

Just an idea.

I would like to go a little further with your ideas combined with my own on HAStBs.
Let’s keep OOB Bombers as a Medium Bombers like the B-25.

The High Altitude Strategic Bomber would cost the same 12 IPCs.
SBR damage would be like HvyBomber Tech 2D6 keeps the better and add 2.
2D6, keep the best dice and give+2: (for 3 to 8 damage pts).
If destroyed, damage is 1D6-1, (for 0 to 5 damage pts).

Instead of 3D@1, I would reduced it further to 2D@1 just to harmonized it with SBR rolling 2 dices, even if only 1 is considered.
By keeping the same cost at 12 IPCs and an increase SBR damage average, it can compensate for the lower attack value, but it is slightly better than a simple attack @2.

High Altitude Strategic Bomber, 4 engines bombers
Attack 2D@1
Defense 1
Cost 12
Move 6-7
SBR damage: roll 2D6 but keep one best dice then add 2
SBR damage if destroyed by IC’s AAA: 1D6-1 ,
No damage if destroyed by Fg interceptor.
A1 D0 in air-to-air combat

[toblerone77]

@toblerone77:

Thought of some rules for aircraft DK. Not sure if it helps but,  here goes…

All aircraft OOB stats remain the same except:

Fighters may only hit other aircraft unless there are no defending aircraft present. Or all defending aircraft have been eliminated.

Strategic bombers can still attack any unit in the game except,  pardon the pun, they attack by bombardment just like the battleship.  One round 1D6@4. They still remain in combat and can be taken as a casualty but the give only an opening bombardment. While defending they roll thier normal 1D6@1 and defend normally…

Just some ideas.

Baron this should read: All attacking fighters may only attack defending aircraft, unless there are no defending fighters present. Or all defending fighters are destroyed. It’s meant to be a double edged sword. I’m typing from a smartphone so it’s hard type this out.

I will elaborate more when I’m at a computer.

[toblerone77]

Okay I’m at the computer again.

I’m rethinking this a bit.

Fighters are OOB in stats.

Fighters on both sides may only hit aircraft this includes any non-fighter aircraft.
Any combat unit can hit fighters except subs.
Either side may retreat some or all fighters after one round of combat, must adhere to range limits.

Exceptions to fighters only attacking aircraft:
A. The opposing side does not have any fighters.
B. Either sides fighters are completely destroyed.
C. Either side performs a FULL retreat of fighters.

As for STBs I think a one round bombardment 1D6@4 to any unit and all other stats being OOB I feel is best.

My Reasons:
If the STB is nerfed too badly and too restricted it’s only real advantage is range and SBR to ICs.

One round of bombardment 1D6@4 simulates the heavy fire power of STBs and Medium bombers alike. The one time bombardment simulates the inaccuracy of carpet bombing.

I won’t get too much into history for the sake of gameplay but bombers like the; Mitchell, JU-88, Betty, etc., were just lighter versions of the STB but not quite akin to the likes of what the TcB represents in the game IMO.

I’m a collector so It’s easy for me to say but if you really want to simulate the Medium bomber’s role in the game you may want to buy custom units Mitchells for the Allies, and the HBG Axis heavy bombers to represent STBs.

For the Mitchells and existing OOB Axis STBs (Which will now represent Med. Bombers) I suggest making them Long- range TcBs M-6 A-3/4 D3 C?

OR

Heavy TcBs M-4 D-3 Attack 2D6@3/4 (Best of 2 results or “straight up” 2D6@3) C?

These characteristics represent fire power, accuracy and range for pure combat whereas the StB still represents thier more historical role IMO. As I said I’m a collector and these rules may not work for everyone. For me If I were to implement this in my games, is the direction i would go.

Those are just opinions.

[Jennifer]

I like the opening fire aspect, but would go:

• 3@1 per attacking strategic bomber during opening fire. Â
• Bombers automatically “retreat” after opening fire.
• Defending fighters automatically negate Strategic Bomber in opening fire (Strategic Bombers automatically retreat due to cover air patrol.)
• Strategic Bombers have a defense value of 0 (bombers caught on the ground.)
• Strategic Bombers cost 12 (Same as a cruiser.)

Yes I am taking the paratroopers back off and dropping them back to 6/7 flight range instead of 7/8 (which I really like because 8 range means they can actually fly out AND back for SBR in the Pacific!)  just to drop the price back down to 12 IPC.

Of course, defending fighters would not turn back strategic bombers on SBR runs.  I’d like to see Heavy Bombers doing at least 4 damage as a minimum to bases and industrial complexes which means the 2d6+2 damage kind of works as well.  (Min 4, max 14 but average is 10.)  Makes sense that a complex would be pretty shut down a least for one season as it gets repaired as well and it refocuses attention to SBR campaigns.

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is another proposition about High Altitude Strategic Bomber which I found interesting and somewhat balance at 15 IPCs.
In addition it can be a way to roll dices as Toblerone suggested:

John Griffey (AnimalMother)
The Heavy Bomber tech breakthrough lets each bomber roll two dice in battle or in strategic bombing, picking the best of the two dice as the result.

In battle, that means a bomber’s odds of scoring a hit go up from 67% (4/6) to 89% (8/9). Thus, in battle a heavy bomber is 33% more powerful than the old bomber.

In strategic bombing, this means that each bomber which rolls a die/dice will on average score 4.46 hits rather than the usual 3.5 hits. Thus, in strategic bombing the heavy bomber is 28% more powerful than the old bomber.

But the heavy bomber was designed for strategic bombing rather than ground support.
I would replace the current heavy bomber tech rule with this rule:

–Heavy Bomber hits on a 5 or less in battle. (HB is 25% more powerful than old bomber, which hits on a 4 or less.)

–In Strategic Bombing, roll all heavy bomber dice at once, and pick the best (highest) half of the rolls. E.g., if you have 5 Heavy Bombers, roll ten dice and pick the best five dice.

This will make the average roll per Heavy Bomber approach 5 (rather than 4.46) when large numbers of Heavy Bombers roll.
This simulates some of the firestorm effect of large heavy bombing attacks. The Heavy Bomber is now up to 43% more powerful than the old bomber, not 28% more powerful.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/592106/heavy-bombers
Since it was desigh for a D6 bombard damage on IC, I would slightly adjust the stats:

High Altitude Strategic Bomber, 4 engines bombers
Attack 5
Defense 1
Cost 15
Move 6-7
SBR damage: roll 2D6 but keep one best dice then add 2,
Firestorm effect: if more than 1 HAStB is part of SBR, all the dices are roll together and pick the bests for each attacking unit then add 2 per each unit.
A1 D0 in air-to-air combat

[Jennifer]

I’d still have all strategic bomber defense abilities set to 0, maybe even leave them as last possible unit that can be taken as a casualty since army units and fighter units were tasked with protecting bombers at all costs.  Basically, apply the Transport defense rules to Strategic Bombers.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

I’d still have all strategic bomber defense abilities set to 0, maybe even leave them as last possible unit that can be taken as a casualty since army units and fighter units were tasked with protecting bombers at all costs. Basically, apply the Transport defense rules to Strategic Bombers.

You really see StBs as they were sitting duck on the tarmack waiting to be strafing down by Fighters and TcBs, isn’t?

For the highest cost amongst planes, a single @1 on defense is minimal for a combat unit.
Also, you can also figure that StB on defense are necessarily bombing over their homeland, so they need more accuracy to not bomb on collateral damage.
The attacker is on the move and not static.
Their is many other ways to figure an historical situation to explain the very low defense @1.

I refer you to all the discussions on DK’s thread about how it is interesting a Classic transport compared to taken last transport.
The aberration of the defenseless transport The link is to a summary of reasons given to argue for Classic TP.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=30618.msg1289043#msg1289043

However, in SBR escort and intercept phase, I agree with you there is some balance ways to give A0 D0 to StBs while Fg A1 D2 or A1 D1.

[knp7765]

@Cmdr:

I like the opening fire aspect, but would go:

• 3@1 per attacking strategic bomber during opening fire. Â
• Bombers automatically “retreat” after opening fire.
• Defending fighters automatically negate Strategic Bomber in opening fire (Strategic Bombers automatically retreat due to cover air patrol.)
• Strategic Bombers have a defense value of 0 (bombers caught on the ground.)
• Strategic Bombers cost 12 (Same as a cruiser.)

Yes I am taking the paratroopers back off and dropping them back to 6/7 flight range instead of 7/8 (which I really like because 8 range means they can actually fly out AND back for SBR in the Pacific!)  just to drop the price back down to 12 IPC.

Of course, defending fighters would not turn back strategic bombers on SBR runs. Â I’d like to see Heavy Bombers doing at least 4 damage as a minimum to bases and industrial complexes which means the 2d6+2 damage kind of works as well. Â (Min 4, max 14 but average is 10.) Â Makes sense that a complex would be pretty shut down a least for one season as it gets repaired as well and it refocuses attention to SBR campaigns.

@Cmdr:

I’d still have all strategic bomber defense abilities set to 0, maybe even leave them as last possible unit that can be taken as a casualty since army units and fighter units were tasked with protecting bombers at all costs.  Basically, apply the Transport defense rules to Strategic Bombers.

Hey Jennifer,
I like your ideas. I think they more reflect how strategic bombers worked. One thing that always bothered me is someone sending transports for an amphibious assault escorted by bombers to fight any scramble planes. For the game it does make sense, bombers attack @4 so they would be great to deal with scrambling fighters and/or tacs. However, in reality, it is just ludicrous.
Also, I think the idea of defending bombers having a defense of 0 is a great idea, as well as your “chosen last as casualties” idea.
A couple of questions:
1 > I may have missed this in all the posts, but you mentioned defending fighters causing attacking bombers to turn back without doing the opening shots. What if the attacker also has fighters? Do you have to have an air superiority battle round first? Or are the bombers allowed to do the opening shot as long as they are paired one for one with an attacking fighter?

2 > On SBRs, you mentioned defending fighters would NOT turn back attacking bombers. In that case, would you say the attacking bombers can still hit interceptors if they roll a 1? (since the bombers did have defensive weapons and were sometimes successful at downing fighters)