AARHE: Main Topic Board (Phase 1)

[theduke]

Looks like great minds think alike… the original A&A game had 1 national unit per nation too (they called them special forces). Funny, they called an IC a special unit  :lol: I think giving UK infantry as the special unit is probably just cause they didn’t want to give them fighters cause they thought fighters were better for Japan and didn’t want the same unit type for 2 different nations (just my guess).

[tekkyy]

@theduke:

I don’t know if players will want to keep track of the number of rounds of combat. I don’t think keeping track of whether there has been 3 or 4 rounds of combat for every battle is worth the added realism.

A little moving counter on the battle board would hurt.
It depends on how much you like detailing planes.
In right direction we’ve already separated air combat and land combat .

In the PC game BF1942 fighters get 15 bombs lol.
Some players don’t mind. Some players think its absolutely ridiculous!

Spitfire carried 1 big or 2 small bombs. BF-109 carried 1 big or 4 small bombs.
It makes no sense for 1 attacking fighter to attack round after round killing 5 tank piece.

[tekkyy]

@theduke:

I think giving UK infantry as the special unit is probably just cause they didn’t want to give them fighters cause they thought fighters were better for Japan and didn’t want the same unit type for 2 different nations (just my guess).

Yeah it is otherwise a doubtful choice. Germany didn’t do land invasion of UK so its hypothetical to say UK infantry fight better should it happen.

[Imperious Leader]

I think to finish phase one … we still need some rules for neutral armies? any ideas?

[theduke]

How about enemy with nearest capital to neutral gets to defend it with 3 inf and gets to sum the roll of 2 dice to determine the number of IPCs that can be spent on non-inf units. Only neutrals on the board are swiss, sweds, spain, turkey, Venezuela, Argentina. I think this will give a realistic distribution of units per neutral while still leaving enough up to chance.

[Imperious Leader]

Neutrals:

1. You cannot enter the territories or airspace of any neutral nation unless you first declare war upon them. each minor neutral has its own historical forces and in some cases either the allies or axis have a certain affiliation with them allowing their “conversion” as part of this alliance.

2. the following list of neutrals and their military forces:

Spain: 5 Infantry, 1 armor, 2 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 destroyer, 1 IC
Turkey: 4 Infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 IC
Sweden: 3 Infantry, 1 artillery, 1 armor ( 3 IP value)
Venezuela: 2 Infantry ( 2 IP value)
Mongolia: 2 infantry ( 1 IP value)
Rio De Oro: part of spain ( no value)
Angola: 1 infantry ( 1 ip value)
Peru: 2 infantry (1 IP value)
Argentina: 3 infantry, 1 destroyer ( 3 IP value)
switzerland: 2 infantry ( no ip value)

Spain: new value= 6 IP
If the axis conquer gibrater, suez and control all territories that “circle” the medditeraen sea ( except turkey) and control the caucasus territory for one complete turn then the axis get to roll one d6 1-3= conversion to a full minor axis ally. 4-6 continued neutral status. One roll is granted every turn the axis meet these conditions.

Turkey: new value= 5 IP
If the axis do all the following plus conquer persia, then they get the same roll.
In both cases Germany uses their IP value and builds only units from these territories.

Argentina: If the axis attack south america and occupy any territory in the americas, they roll a d6 1-3 Argentina goes axis 4-6 stays neutral.

Sweden and Switzerland these nations stay neutral and are basically limited axis trading partners. If the axis decide to invade them, they only get their income ( swiss have none).

If Turkey does not become an axis ally she will enter the war against the axis immediatly when the Soviets occupy all formerly german occupied Soviet territory.

all other neutrals can be converted by either side as follows:

the axis or allies can make one attempt per turn to convert any one neutral nation on their side. Roll one d6 if you roll equal to or less than their IPC value they become allies, and their forces are converted into pieces from the nation that converted them. The IPC value is added to that nations total. If you roll higher no effect try again.

[tekkyy]

Yeah the neturals rule would make it historic.
Don’t have the background the diplomatic relations of WWII so you guys talk it out.

Do you or theduke have programming background to roll out a software for playtesting Phase 1?

[Micoom]

I like the Most of the “neutral” rules, however wasn’t it decided that “neutrals” are part of Phase 2?? We have a separate topic for it…

[Imperious Leader]

I am not sure if its phase two or one… but welcome Micoom as a member of our team … if that courtesy hasn’t been sent allready by another member.

The neutrals are based on history…except its real close on giving the turks a destroyer…

other than that i would further propose that as i have read the minutes of the meetings and letters between Hitler and Franco about the latter joining the axis… it was also Francos wish to obtain former French colonies of western africa and direct aid from germany i the duration of the pact… This left Hitler with a sour spirits and he never again approached Franco for a direct alliance feeling the cost was too high.

So to be even more accurate germany has to give 2 IP in aid to spain and release its claim to west africa which is now part of spain.

[tekkyy]

So lets list out date and countries that switched sides or declared war on each other and so on…and why so.

[theduke]

Since no neutrals were ever invaded after 1942, it seems that the simplest solution would be to say that neutrals in the game can’t be invaded. This would simulate history.

If we do decide to allow invading neutrals, then we shouldn’t make it complicated by saying that each neutral has a different size military. I think we should make all neutral military foces consist of an average force. Naturally, some neutrals should just remain impassable.

I think I vote for saying for phase 1 neutrals can’t be invaded. We could then introduce declaring war on neutrals as an option in phase 2.

[Imperious Leader]

Since no neutrals were ever invaded after 1942, it seems that the simplest solution would be to say that neutrals in the game can’t be invaded. This would simulate history.

This argument can be extrapolated to many other aspects of what we are doing. On techs for example then if we follow this path Rockets are only available for germany, Super subs for germany, jet fighters for germany, Heavy Bombers for US…long range planes for USA… basically denying most of the nations the “possibility” of development of these weapons.

Germany didnt (rather wasnt) able to take any more neutrals because after the summer of 1942 she found herself on the losing end of things, but the game presents the “possibility” of Germany doing better then in the real war… thus neutrals must be allowed to be more than mere “obstacles” To do anything else it basicically akin to “sweeping dirt under the rug” the OOB rules were quite lazy with their treatment of this subject… Thats where we come in and make changes for the Historical basis.

[theduke]

There’s a reason why neutrals weren’t invaded. It wasn’t worth it for any of the major players to declare war on any of them. If you really feel the need to include that possibility then you have to make it really not worth it. Maybe like as many as 6 free enemy infantry placed there for free. We can’t make it worth that much for anyone to invade or else players will be invading neutrals in every game and that’s not realisitic.

I want simplicity for phase 1. I don’t want the complexity of phase 2 or 3 creeping into phase 1. I like not beiing able to invade neutrals because it shouldn’t be that important to the war anyway.

[Imperious Leader]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participants_in_World_War_II#National_impacts

Here is a list of these so called neutrals and how they invaribly entered the war with the allies… If we dont include something with them our project looks real bad as a historical varient.

Neutrals were basically no very neutral. Even if Germany didnt have a chance to invade them.

[theduke]

The game starts in early 1942. At that time most of the neutrals remained neutral until the war was basically over (1945). With this reasoning it is perfectly acceptable to model this by just saying players can’t invade neutrals. As I said before, if you feel that you have to have invasion of neutrals you should make the penalty be so ridiculously high that practically no one would ever do it.

[Imperious Leader]

OK then well move this to phase two… But to complete phase one we need something else to wrap it up. Or the other phases will have to much new stuff to learn. Perhaps we can allow attack on neutrals and they have armies as outlined, but no possibility for alliance to either side as this point. In latter phases we install rules about which are pro allies/ pro axis. Because most did not get involved intill 44-45 is only on the basis on how the course of the war developed… The possibility of an axis victory must be also addressed which leads to neutrals becoming involved… just like the potential of say Japan getting “rockets” which is far more remote possibility.

[tekkyy]

Yeah I think its all in the modelling.
We want a simulation not a replay of history.

But I also like to form basis rules for now for phase 1.
It is gonna require quite a bit of research for the details. It won’t be most efficient for our efforts so play more on other things first.

[theduke]

Up until now I have advocated revising fighter movement by saying that combat in a SZ counts as one extra move. I think a better solution is to have the following restrictions to fighter movement:

The sum of total moves in the combat and non-combat move phases in any given turn cannot exceed 4, and of these 4 moves no more than 2 may be used flying over SZ spaces.

Any air unit that does not move in a given combat move phase may ‘move twice’ in the non-combat move phase of that same turn. Moving twice means that an air unit may move up to 4 total spaces (still including no more than 2 SZ spaces), temporarily land in a friendly space, and then again move up to 4 spaces (including no more than 2 SZ spaces) to land in another friendly space.

Once a fighter starts it turn on a CV, or temporarily lands on a CV just before the non-combat move phase bonus move, that fighter cannot land, or temporarily land in a territory until the CV is destroyed.

[Imperious Leader]

Ok so:

1. Carrier based fighters are tied to the Carrier until its sunk and
2. Planes have 4 MP per turn, so the carrier can move first hereby extending the range of planes as long as they during the entire course of a turn do not exceed 4 MP

am i right?

So are we finished with phase one? and what is the final wording? Look at Tekkyys post about national advantages… i think they are good. can they be added to phase one? Phase one needs something else.

[tekkyy]

Its great we further clarified the non-combat “move twice” system for air units.