AARHE: National Units (Phase 1)

[Imperious Leader]

Lynxes:

thanks for posting that. You got some good ideas. I like the nation specific units BTW and i think something along the lines of what you have can be looked at in phase two.

[tekkyy]

@theduke:

in Moscow…in London…in Tokyo

Nice. I like restricting National Units to locations when appropriate for even more realism.

But only Japan has infantry power now? I thought we wanted Russia and Germany to have it.

@theduke:

For every combat where Japan is defending a yellow territory with at least 1 infantry, 1 (and only 1) infantry defend at a 3.

Wait are we mixing up between National Unit and National Advantage?
Are we still doing the Banzai attack?
I actually like the +1 attack but no retreat. I think no retreat is important to model the spirit!
I even think give them have +1 defense too.
Again for modelling the situation I think Japan can’t use it unless they are outnumbered.

US= All US aircraft carriers cost 14 and move 3 in the non-combat move phase.
(Essex carriers were rushed into production and they were fast.)

I know they are fast. But I am not sure they are “faster” at 33 knots.
Strangely, googling “fast carriers” I actually saw reference to Japanese.

[Imperious Leader]

“For every combat where Japan is defending a yellow territory with at least 1 infantry, 1 (and only 1) infantry defend at a 3.”

+++ i think on this Japan should instead get :    once per turn the Japanese player can elect a banzai attack and commit his infantry to attack with a +1 combat modifier, but must continue attacking untill he is destroyed or the attack suceeds. Secondly his infantry defending in his own territories on any islands (including Japan) gets a +1 defense modifier on the first round of combat.

[theduke]

i think the main point of this national unit thing is to have a cheap type of unit. so japan inf should be cheaper, at least some of them.

banzai attacks were actually a form of defense, I think. I know it sounds funny because of the name. I don’t think banzai attacks were used to take new ground but a last desparate attempt to save the ground they were already on (i.e. they were on defense).

[tekkyy]

So Banzai for both attack and defense it is  :-D

Still seeing what you have to say about Essex and fast  :-P

[Guerrilla Guy]

I think the Point is that their were more US Escort Carriers out there and used with incredible effectiveness in both theatres…

[Imperious Leader]

I agree with this however this idea is very entrenched in players minds as the “japanese style attack”  Perhaps instead of infantry we could go back to special Japanese fighters with a modifier +1 on attack and cheaper to allow the initial Japanese advantage of the “lance” torpedo which the US had no equilevant too.

so:
Japanese fighters cost 6 IP and get a +1 attack on naval ships in the opening combat round

OK now back to some other ideas:

German Blitzkreig: these units get a +1 combat modifier against enemy ground units in every round where no enemy fighters are present. They also give one armor unit a +1 attack with each paired unit at a 1/1 basis.

UK home defense: British fighters defending in home territories get a +1 defense modifier

Soviet Shock armies: Soviet armor units in the opening round of combat get premtive attack in the first round of combat

Japanese:  allready covered

USA: “blood and guts”  all armored units ( and mech infantry) can attack one territory and if they take it can continue onto a second attack in an adjacent enemy controlled territory .

Or you can install some US marines type of deal…

[tekkyy]

@Guerrilla:

I think the Point is that their were more US Escort Carriers out there and used with incredible effectiveness in both theatres…

Cool. So we can go without the move of 3 then.  :lol:

@Imperious:

German Blitzkreig: these units get a +1 combat modifier against enemy ground units in every round where no enemy fighters are present. They also give one armor unit a +1 attack with each paired unit at a 1/1 basis.

Yep you’ve had displayed this rule before, good to have to eliminate enemy fighers first.

Good to see national unit and national attack are represented clearly again.

[theduke]

German Blitzkreig: these units get a +1 combat modifier against enemy ground units in every round where no enemy fighters are present. They also give one armor unit a +1 attack with each paired unit at a 1/1 basis.

Yep you’ve had displayed this rule before, good to have to eliminate enemy fighers first.

Good to see national unit and national attack are represented clearly again.

Whell, I guess it’s clear, but not realistic. What does blitzkreig have to do with attack modifier? The OOB blitz rules were more realisitc in that if you atack for 1 round only, then you can attack again with armor. I think if we just include fighters to that also, we’d have a simple, realistic advantage.

[tekkyy]

I guess he is saying the German tactic also meant better fighting or less prepared defense by enemy.

[theduke]

If the argument is worse defense by the enemy, than the defense modifier should be -1, instead of +1 for the attacker. Besides, it’s the speed of the assault that is the advantage, not the strength of the assault.

[tekkyy]

But we don’t let bombers attack again do we?

[theduke]

bomber units represent medium bombers (or heavy bombers with the tech). fighter units represent fighters and ‘small’ bombers.

If the argument is worse defense by the enemy, than the defense modifier should be -1, instead of +1 for the attacker. Besides, it’s the speed of the assault that is the advantage, not the strength of the assault.

[tekkyy]

so what are you saying?

bombers attack again like fighters like tanks in OOB’s panzerbltiz?

[theduke]

I’m saying I don’t know what bombers you are referring to… the bomber unit on the game board or the dive bombers that were used in blitzkrieg tactics.

[tekkyy]

I meant the bomber piece on the game board

I see now, only dive bombers take part in blitzkrieg

[Imperious Leader]

German Blitzkreig: these units get a +1 combat modifier against enemy ground units in every round where no enemy fighters are present. They also give one armor unit a +1 attack with each paired unit at a 1/1 basis.

Yep you’ve had displayed this rule before, good to have to eliminate enemy fighers first.

OK ill explain how it could work… under the land combat system… air fights air and land fights land… once one side has “cleared the sky” after any combat round… they ( lets use the germans in our example) get this advantage as a matter of course due to the revolutionary concept of Blitzkreig. Specialized planes (dive bombers… skuka) worked well with advancing armor columns and took out the enemy armor and other strong points to allow the classic breakthru. This was clearly a german concept for war with the mind set of quick victories and a method of getting them. Armor gets a +1 because the divebombers are destroying and assisting the armor to accomplish this task. The benifit has to be rewarded with this bonus… so the germans will commit their armor ( a risk that they acknowledge fully)… i dont want to reward germany to use infantry… we allready have this with artillery giving the bonus to infantry, now planes give the bonus to armor… does this make any sense?

Duke writes:

“Well, I guess it’s clear, but not realistic. What does blitzkreig have to do with attack modifier? The OOB blitz rules were more realisitc in that if you atack for 1 round only, then you can attack again with armor. I think if we just include fighters to that also, we’d have a simple, realistic advantage.”

IN OOB your armor does not attack and attack again…But i do favor something like this in my games ( which have many more territories) in our project something like a “Breakthrough and exploitation” phase would not work because their are too few territories IMO.

[tekkyy]

Trust Imperious Leader to come up with solutions.
He has many games behind him.

Its probably true that our territories are too big for that.

[Imperious Leader]

There is a level of abstaction with respect to time and place that are key ingredients when assigning rules that may interfere with the established “unit” of scale. So some rules may be more complex or less abstracted but as long as they conform to the time and scale of the game they can be made to work.

[tekkyy]

So we are pretty much good with it? 1 National Unit and 1 National Attack/Defense.