*EDITED TO INCLUDE CALCUTTA ROUND 1
Here’s what might happen in most games using VCs worth $5 each (nation must be at war with at least 1 enemy nation) instead of NOs…
Round 1
Germany - NOs = $10 / VCs = $15
Russia - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Japan - NOs = $10 / VCs = $10
United States - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
China - NOs = $6 / VCs = $0
United Kingdom - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
Italy - NOs = $0 / VCs = $5
Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Axis - NOs = $20 / VCs = $30
Allies - NOs = $16 / VCs = $25
Round 2
Germany - NOs = $10 / VCs = $15
Russia - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Japan - NOs = $0 / VCs = $20
United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
United Kingdom - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
Italy - NOs = $5 / VCs = $5
Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Axis - NOs = $15 / VCs = $40
Allies - NOs = $30 / VCs = $40
Round 3
Germany - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
Russia - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
Japan - NOs = $5 / VCs = $20
United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
United Kingdom - NOs = $0 / VCs = $15
Italy - NOs = $5 / VCs = $5
Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Axis - NOs = $15 / VCs = $40
Allies - NOs = $30 / VCs = $55
Round 4
Germany - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
Russia - NOs = $8 / VCs = $15
Japan - NOs = $5 / VCs = $20
United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
United Kingdom - NOs = $0 / VCs = $15
Italy - NOs = $10 / VCs = $10
Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Axis - NOs = $20 / VCs = $45
Allies - NOs = $33 / VCs = $55
Round 5
Germany - NOs = $10 / VCs = $20
Russia - NOs = $8 / VCs = $10
Japan - NOs = $5 / VCs = $20
United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
United Kingdom - NOs = $0 / VCs = $15
Italy - NOs = $12 / VCs = $5
Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Axis - NOs = $27 / VCs = $45
Allies - NOs = $16 / VCs = $50
Here’s what happened:
G3 DOW and a J2 DOW
Italy took Cairo I4
UK liberated Cairo UK5
Germany took Paris GI
Germany took Leningrad G5
The extra cash in the game would really justify the Major factory capability of producing 5 units. That’s what I realized today when play testing… the Allies couldn’t take advantage of the extra production capabilities.
@Young:
Here’s what might happen in most games using VCs worth $5 each (nation must be at war with at least 1 enemy nation) instead of NOs…
So if Russia attacks Japan, should they get $15 for their VCs? it would give Russia the boost it needs to defend itself from a Moscow crush, and for Japan it would negate the Mongolians.
Yeah and you figure, like every A&A board in history, Russia is invariably the player who needs the cash infusion the most. :-D
Lets not forget after all, that there was a war here between Japan and Russia for a time. Remember Zhukov ;)
The non aggression neutrality pact itself wasn’t signed until 1941 (and even then Japan still considered breaking it.)
Basically the way everything shakes out, the Russians will be at war with Germany soon enough anyway. Seems fair to me to give them the VC loot from the first round if they declare.
Right now there is no real advantage for the Soviets to maintain the NAP with Japan anyway. Everyone I know always just declares against them in the first round regardless, with the NAP serving as little more than a showpiece. I prefer keeping it the same for everyone, so if Russia declares they should get it I think, same as the rest.
Like you, I was also thinking that a bit more cash to get the Majors up and running would be cool. In my experience most players enjoy a slight infusion of cash to the game, so long as it is evenly doled out. This way you bring a little in on all sides, enough IPCs to cover the spread, but without over-complicating the situation too much. Everyone gets to enjoy a few more ipcs for units to build, and new strategies can be worked out in response.
VC bonus +5
Just like the red chip, and the old red 5 dollar bill, all VCs are conveniently denoted on the map already with a Red dot. It’s kind of perfect
No need yet for more complex objectives. Everyone has the same simple goals, to take cities for the +5 ipcs. I think it could really work.
At any rate, it would make the Commonwealth, the new unified UK, and Russia! all pretty fun to play…
Here’s what I came up with…
VICTORY CITY BONUSES
Nations will no longer collect bonus income for national objectives, instead, during the collect income phase, each nation will collect victory city bonuses.
10 IPCs for each capital city
5 IPCs for each non-capital city
Nations may collect VC bonus income for every city they control, as long as they are at war with at least 1 other nation.
China may still produce artillery if the Burma road is open.
I really like this for a lot of reasons…
1. It’s clean and simple
2. Russia can earn some protection money by DOW on Japan SU1
3. Germany can compete with Russia’s income due to Paris and Berlin at $10 each
4. A Russian DOW on Japan will allow for action on that front, as the Mongolians are neutralized
5. More income into the came will compliment the new major factories everywhere
6. Italy will get $10 for income, and $10 for Rome to start… that’s not to shabby
7. Japan can easily make $25 in bonuses as early as J2… they can no longer be ignored
8. Helps the UK to protect London, India, with enough left to place units in South Africa
9. Allows Germany the economic flexibility to build up their fleet if they so desire
10. With Germany making so much cake, Sealion is back as a viable strategy
Beautiful!
And note also how easy all of that is to read!
This is the sort of the thing that gets us the cash we need for the game to actually function, while preserving a reasonably balanced, epic scale game, that makes good use of the starting Majors. It could potentially provide the whole game with a more equitable balance (Axis vs Allies.) Also the divisions with 10 and 5 seem to match up pretty well.
In effect you could say that all red dots (VCs) are worth 5 ipcs, and Capitals are getting an extra 5 on top of this (since you know, they’re Capitals) thus bringing them to 10 total. Feels totally doable, and can work with other types of rules as well if desired. But as a baseline, you’ve got a really strong start for each Nation/Side. I think it is great! sounds easy to implement, but also opens up a whole new strategic experience. Nice work
ps. that spread with the Capitals at 10 is near perfect. It gets each Nation up off the ground and income balance seems sound. Also the genius here is that the two big objective bonuses +10 for a capital and +5 for all other VCs, fits almost exactly the IC/Major scheme.
If the balance is close, as I expect it will be, then this leaves the door open if necessary to add in a last minute tweak on balance, by adding in a Minor Objective +3 (for each nation.) These minor NOs could be used to fine tune if needed, and then you’d have only one kind of specific objective to remember the +3. Just like the minor factory, it would be the only special case. Everything else Objectives wise, being basically generic
Beautiful!
And note also how easy all of that is to read!
This is the sort of the thing that gets us the cash we need for the game to actually function, while preserving a reasonably balanced, epic scale game, that makes good use of the starting Majors. It could potentially provide the whole game with a more equitable balance (Axis vs Allies.) Also the divisions with 10 and 5 seem to match up pretty well.
In effect you could say that all red dots (VCs) are worth 5 ipcs, and Capitals are getting an extra 5 on top of this (since you know, they’re Capitals) thus bringing them to 10 total. Feels totally doable, and can work with other types of rules as well if desired. But as a baseline, you’ve got a really strong start for each Nation/Side. I think it is great! sounds easy to implement, but also opens up a whole new strategic experience. Nice work
Thanks for bringing it to my attention, it sounds similar to my Delta rule system, but here with Halifax… all the NOs are out.
Did the math on the Pacific side and saw a $25 bonus swing for Japan while the US stays idle. Had no choice but to modify the setup, and remove a Japanese fighter, and a Japanese tactical bomber from Manchuria (which is what most people have always wanted anyway… now it makes perfect sense).
+1 YG :wink:
Thanks Tolberone! :mrgreen:
FYI…
If the Axis prove to be consistantly weak, we should give Japan back their air units.
If the Allies prove to be consistantly weak, we should give US the War Bonds tech for free.
I’ve been thinking all day about the Soviet Union DOW on Japan just to collect $15, and how this effects Germany. There has to be consequences for the Allies if Russia wants to collect $15 in free income at turn 1, and this is what I think is fair…
War conditions for collecting VC bonuses
A nation must be at war with at least 1 other nation in order to collect their VC bonuses for each city they control.
If the Soviet Union declares war on Japan by making an unprovoked attack, declares war without attacking, or declares war by moving units into Chinese territories, all Mongolian territories and standing armies will immediately become Japanese controlled.
China may still produce artillery if the Burma road is open.
@Young:
I’ve been thinking all day about the Soviet Union DOW on Japan just to collect $15, and how this effects Germany. There has to be consequences for the Allies if Russia wants to collect $15 in free income at turn 1, and this is what I think is fair…
War conditions for collecting VC bonuses
A nation must be at war with at least 1 other nation in order to collect their VC bonuses for each city they control.
If the Soviet Union declares war on Japan by making an unprovoked attack, declares war without attacking, or declares war by moving units into Chinese territories, all Mongolian territories and standing armies will immediately become Japanese controlled.
China may still produce artillery if the Burma road is open.
I rather like it. Gives Russia the option, and still resolves the situation with Mongolia. I always thought the Mongolia rules were rather weird anyway. This simplifies the situation considerably, if Russia declares then Mongolia goes Axis, if Japan declares it goes Allies. Fairly easy to remember.
I’m still a little curious about the whole NAP thing in 1940 anyway. As far as I understand it, the Anti-Comintern Pact had been in effect since 1936, and though undeclared, the two countries were effectively at war on the boarder since 39. The formal neutrality pact wasn’t signed until April 13th 1941. Perhaps there was a ceasefire at some point in between, but as the war was never formally declared anyway, that would seem a bit curious. I had always thought that the Japanese defeat at Nomonhan merely deterred Japan from further escalation with the Russians, but without any sort of binding treaty or formal agreement until 41.
Whatever the case, the NAP is built into the game for better or worse, and at least the situation above provides an incentive for both sides to maybe try to work within it. If Russia declares, they get the 15 ipcs to use immediately in the build up against G, but only at the risk of pushing Mongolia into the Axis camp. Under the OOB rules Russia has no incentive, so they virtually always break the pact. Japans situation remains more or less the same, except that now, there is at least a chance that they might benefit in some way if Russia breaks the pact before they do, so they might hold off on a DoW of their own.
Simple, easy to understand, I like it :)
At least this way there is a cost to Russian DoW +15, since it gives Japan a little something more to work with along the Mongolian border…
Can’t type for long…
I was wrong, Russia won’t get $15, they will get $20 (1 capital city, 2 non capital cities) which makes the Mongolian flip even more necessary. Also, decided to give Japan their planes back and give America some war bonds income… their making too little throughout a game like this for it to seem realistic.
Here are the changes I’ve made over the last 2 days…
PS: That poster was my Avatar for 6 years here at A&A.org
New Victory City Objectives:
Nations will no longer collect bonus income for national objectives, now during the collect income phase, eligible nations will collect bonus income for each victory city they control. A nation is eligible to collect bonus income for each VC they control if they are at war with at least 1 other nation.
10 IPCs for each capital city
5 IPCs for each non-capital city
New Rule Modifications:
Setup:
The Mongolian Rule:
If the Soviet Union declares war on Japan by making an unprovoked attack, declares war without attacking, or declares war by moving units into Chinese territories, all Mongolian territories and standing armies will immediately become Japanese controlled.
American War Bonds:
During each collect income phase in which the United States are at war, America will roll 2 dice and collect the amout shown in IPCs.
Its a great image :-D
Oh good point, Russia would be collecting nicely with Moscow. Finally a red bear that can do more than just hibernate haha. But you figure, the Mongolian infantry are worth nearly 20 themselves, and if activated could run amok up in Siberia, so it is basically even.
The main thing that has me excited is still the potential of the 5 factories, with the added scratch we’ll be seeing in play. I think this is going to make the factory game much more exciting.
If it seems appropriate, you might want to resurrect the old idea of National Advantages. Where each player nation gets just a single advantage they can exploit. I’m pretty leery of specialized rules, but because the entire complex NO scheme has been simplified using the City objective scheme, this does provide some flexibility. I would think that as long as you kept it just 1 special thing per Side, or 1 special thing for Nation, it would be cool. Its only when these rules start stacking up into several special rules that things start to balloon out of control. USA with warbonds is fairly simple. It implements a tech already in the game, so at least there’s that.
USA has been pretty weak, without the W.USA +30 NO. I like something to get them going but the DoW messes with the situation a bit. One of the reasons I liked to put China under direct US control in some games (aside from making the china rules simpler) is just so they have an early front to play around on. But standard OOB has China separate and for ease, I wouldn’t change things there. At least here you are working with stuff that is more or less already in place. I like it the mongolian thing and Warbonds
I think the new situation surrounding production is going to be a lot more fun!
Ps. I think people will be surprised at how a slightly larger economy with just a bit more money in play works towards game resolution. You might expect that the opposite would occur, with more money equating to more units and more rolling, but I find that players are more likely to engage their units in battle when the money is at higher value per round. What prompts people to wait normally is that units are more expensive (proportional to the overall economy) so people are reluctant to take risks with them. Here you have the inverse thing going on.
It would probably be wise to take a wait and see approach before making further adjustments to the unit set up (beyond the Ontario fighter and the factories.) I see the factories as critical. The Ontario fighter is a nice novelty because of what we are doing with the Commonwealth. But taking units off the board should be a last resort. First see how it balances under the VCS with the Russians. It could be that Japan ends up needing those fighters.
I am also still looking to see if this scenario can run absent the DoW too, in which case it would be all VCs active from the ouset. No DoW might take it from Axis favored squarely into Allies favored territory. I think “entry” into war could have been better simulated just with turn order or unit set up rather than a seperate DoW or politics phase. But since it is a current part of the game it’s important for the Halifax rules to get them functioning properly.
With the City Objectives outlined by YG, and the Mongolia rules you have a real mechanic with hard economic values relating to DoW. Here the Japan/Russia nap would be basically back as part of the game. Likewise the Japanese DoW on USA is now a relevant decision again.
Great posts Black Elk,
thanks for the support and all the great reading material…
I think it’s done…
time to take it to the convention,
8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
Sorry if I’m a bit late coming in on this, but I have a couple of thoughts on the Russian DOW/Japan/Mongolia situation.
First, I don’t think Russia should get their VC/Capital bonus until they are at war with Germany and/or Italy. Japan should not count in this regard. Remember that even with the OOB Russian NOs, they did not come into effect until Russia was at war in Europe. Also, because of Russia’s size, they were treated differently from all the other countries in terms of being at war. If they are at war on the Pacific map, they were still neutral on the Europe map and visa versa.
As for Mongolia, I do like your idea of if Russia makes an unprovoked DOW against Japan (either by attack or moving units into China) then Mongolia turns Japanese. If Japan attacks Russia, Mongolia turns Russian.
I like this better than the current version where if Japan attacks, Mongolia becomes Russian but if Russia attacks, Mongolia simply stays strict neutral. So Japan gets punished for aggression but Russia doesn’t?
KNP,
I think it will be more than OK to give Russia the bonuses based on the following math:
Round 1 with National Objective bonuses (J1 DOW)
Germany -10
USA -20
China -6
UK -5
ANZAC -5 (sometimes 10)
Ratio is 1:3 (if you consider the extra Japanese income vs. Japanese bonuses a wash)
Round 1 with Victory City bonuses (J1 DOW)
Germany -25
Japan -25 (+Mongolia)
Italy -10
Russia -20
USA -20 (+ 2 Dice)
UK -20
Commonwealth -10
Ratio is less than 1:2 (if you consider the Mongolia vs. dice bonuses a wash)
So if we analyze this data correctly, giving 20 IPCs to Russia turn 1 may not be enough for the Allies,in fact… we may need to consider removing the Japanese air units again.
The only thing that is giving the Allies a chance against the extra Axis cash, is the Russian bonuses, and the overall increased production capabilities for the Allies.
Here is another reason to leave it for now… Imagine you are Russia turn 1 and in order to collect $20 bonus IPCs, you have to declare war on Japan giving them the Mongolian armies.
A tough choice leading to a fun scenerio!
