Heavy Taranto UK1 right move?

[leontini]

Hi guys, is my first topic and i’m really sorry if this question has been longly debated before but i haven’t found a right answer to this particular situation, i’m playing UK

in T1 German sinked all my fleet in SZ110 and SZ111 losing all of his subs
now the german got 2 TAC 4 FIG in belgium where he build up an airbase
in SZ110 he got his Bship with full health and in SZ113 3 TRANS 1 CC

I would like to make a huge Taranto Move

attacking SZ96 with 1 FIG from Gib and CC from SZ91
at the same time SZ97 with 1 Carrier 1CC 1 DD from SZ98 1 FIG from malta 1 TAC from SZ98 2 FIG and 1 Bomber From London

this will leave London with the 9 inf i’ll buy the FIG from scotland the french FIG the 2 french Inf

at the same time i’ll move Trans and DD from London and Canada (with 1 Inf from Canada) toward Brazil

it can be a good move, or i’ll lose both london and egypt in your opinion?

thx for the answer

[WILD BILL]

Looks to me like you may be in for a Sea lion if you don’t max protect London (which would include keeping the the RAF home). Germany already has 3 transports, and the air base in Hol/Bel will help protect his transport fleet in the Chanel (sz110) when he comes over. UK getting Brazil won’t matter if you loose London, and it will be lost income to the allies. Unfortunately a Taranto run will probably seal your fate, but he might try Sea lion regardless of what you do. I would make it hurt by max protecting London (buying 1 frt, the rest inf), and maybe getting the US into position to trash his transport fleet afterwords (or liberate London). Your number one priority is to keep London British.

You could also try sending all available UK ships to sz 92. This would include the sz 91 cruiser, Med fleet including loaded transport (place units on Gib), and ftrs on the carrier for better defense plus the 109 dd (109 transport goes to Canada to bring over more Canadians), kill the Italian sz 96 with air, but leave the med destroyer in sz 94 to block out Italy from hitting sz92 (French in sz 93 complete the block). This can be risky though, because the Italians can open up a spot in North Africa (on their turn) for the Luftwaffe to land after a strike on your sz92 fleet, but Italy won’t get the Med NO. If the axis do hit the UK fleet in sz92, then they are out of position to do Sea lion G3, and the Luftwaffe should take a hit as well. If they don’t hit your sz92 fleet on G2 then it can make it home if you want along with 4 Canadians.

Just a thought :-D

[Witt]

I agree about Brazil. UK should drop the Canadians in Gib, even if it leaves the TT liable to being sunk undefended. Let the US get Brazil.
I would only ever buy 6 Inf and 1 Ft for the UK. That Ft adds flexibility. (Can go almost anywhere and can be a scramble threat too.)
I am also a great believer in Taranto with all 3 UK units you mention being brought to SZ97.
You must, of course leave one naval unit alive and do the SZ96 battle first(Gib Fr and SZ91 Cruiser).
You cannot leave Italy a free run at Egypt. Block 96 and 97. Then on T2, You can drop the East African units into the Suez to bolster Cairo. I always bring the Indian fleet West.
If Japan wants to take India, he will. Having a ship off India makes no sense, as he can pick it off with one of his 21 Air units.
I do all this, as I think if Italy starts collecting stupid amounts of income, the game is over.

[KaLeu]

I’d need a little more information to consider this. Did Germany send any planes to Southern Italy to scramble against Taranto? Are the French ships in SZ 93 still alive? And, importantly, are there any German planes in Western Germany to protect the SZ 113 fleet? Because if there’s juist the cruiser, you may want to attack it with your bomber. If Germany took the risk to allow that, I’d be tempted to try and punish him for that.

Alternatively, you may want to throw everything (cruiser, destroyer, 4 fighters) at the SZ 110 battleship and build a carrier there to land surviving planes on. If Germany scrambles from Holland/Belgium, that’s not a good fight for him - but he’ll have to kill some of your planes if he’s serious about Sea Lion.

[leontini]

thx guys for the suggestions

@Herr Kaleun
the germans brouught 1 TAC in Taranto, French Ships are still alive in SZ93, no there’s no plane protecting SZ 113 (buti don’t like to go with a bomber that rolls dice at 4 against a unit that rolls at 3)

@Wild Bill
yes i think it will attack london, but if i build 9 inf this turn and retreat all of the scotland forces, next turn i will have 15 inf 5 aaa and 2 FIG, i don’t think he can win those stuff with 6 planes and 4Inf 2 art don’t you think?

@wittman bringing everyithing in sz97 it appears to me as the only way to make a succesfull strike

[Witt]

You will almost certainly lose everything to a German counter on G2, but you  will have neutered Italy for the time being and held Egypt. Also, you will have a 2nd line coming up from East Africa, with the Indian fleet. The pressure will stack up.
I prefer 6 and Ft, because if he does not go Sealion, you don’t have 9 more Inf sitting on England awaiting use T6 at least. It is all about how safe you feel. 
The game is not over after a Sealion, but holding Egyot without an IC and income, makes it hard.
Do Taranto and buy 9 Inf, if it makes you feel better.

[ItIsILeClerc]

@Herr:

(…)
Alternatively, you may want to throw everything (cruiser, destroyer, 4 fighters) at the SZ 110 battleship and build a carrier there to land surviving planes on. If Germany scrambles from Holland/Belgium, that’s not a good fight for him - but he’ll have to kill some of your planes if he’s serious about Sea Lion.

Speaking of alternatives, UK can build a CV in #110 and attack the CA + TRS in #113, depending indeed on how many scramblers there are in WG. This even can be done UK2:
Build 2CV for the channel to allow 2TAC + 2FTR + 1 STR to attack #113. But that’s only if opportunity presents itself ;-).

Taranto is a always a good one to discuss.
Let’s first make it clear that the UK cannot protect Egypt AND London if Germany goes for a GE3 Sea Lion while Japan waits in the east (no USA intervention till after London fell). So the UK must make that choice first.
Going Gibraltar with the UK fleet in the med will almost certainly ensure German doom if it persists in going Sea Lion. Problems start if Germany does not go for SL, but kills the RN (after Italy took Algeria). Luftwaffe loosing 3 air in the process.
If Japan stays silent in the east (still killing China and driving Russia west), the USA cannot intervene and Gibraltar will be next to fall, allowing the German fleet to enter the med, seriously threatening Egypt.

Now let’s discuss Taranto.
London will fall if Germany persists but this should leave Egypt AND Gibraltar in allied hands when the USA enters the war. The USA should at least destroy the kriegsmarine US3 immediately (all the TRS anyway) and only liberate London as a bonus, if possible. Since the USA must also protect Hawaii/Sydney, they usually cannot afford to spend enough IPCs in Europe to sink both the kriegsmarine and Liberate London in the short term, if Germany took it with a lot of surviving land units…

Seriously consider to send in some, or all ships from the pacific to assist in Europe, but be sure they’ll be back @ Hawaii before Japan can secure a Pacific 6VC victory. The kriegsmarine must go down and you better make it a favorable battle for the USA. Key units to produce are 2FTR + 2CV US1 and 4 STR US3 (landing in Eire after killing the kriegsmarine). Since those STR are most likely to get killed in Eire G4, take them as first losses unless you are sure they can survive a hit from German STR GE4.
If Germany has built enough naval units to protect its TRS, Russia should trample Eastern Europe.

Use the pacific fleet (if needed) as well to retake Gibraltar. It is a very vital location (seriously, without it, allies can forget any offensive operations in Europe). This may only be required if the axis keep the USA out of the war untill US4, allowing them to reinforce Gibraltar very heavily. Get the Pacific-USN in, retake it, get the Pacific-USN back into the pacific would be the drill.
Obviously, if the USA is in the war early already, no help from the pacific fleet is required in this situation, but it may still be required during Sea Lion!

[KaLeu]

@ItIsILeClerc:

@Herr:

(…)
Alternatively, you may want to throw everything (cruiser, destroyer, 4 fighters) at the SZ 110 battleship and build a carrier there to land surviving planes on. If Germany scrambles from Holland/Belgium, that’s not a good fight for him - but he’ll have to kill some of your planes if he’s serious about Sea Lion.

Speaking of alternatives, UK can build a CV in #110 and attack the CA + TRS in #113, depending indeed on how many scramblers there are in WG. This even can be done UK2:
Build 2CV for the channel to allow 2TAC + 2FTR + 1 STR to attack #113. But that’s only if opportunity presents itself ;-).

I was thinking along the same lines, and first wanted to do buy a CV on UK1 to put it in SZ 110 after taking out the battleship, so that the UK could send a bomber and a fighter to SZ 113. But then it dawned on me that of course, the planes in Holland/Belgium could scramble using the newly built airfield, so the UK would need everything to kill the BB, and have nothing left for SZ 113. As for later opportunities…. I think that having no planes in Western Germany to protect the SZ 113 fleet was a mistake, and Germany may well repair that G2.

@leontini:

thx guys for the suggestions
@Herr Kaleun
the germans brouught 1 TAC in Taranto, French Ships are still alive in SZ93, no there’s no plane protecting SZ 113 (buti don’t like to go with a bomber that rolls dice at 4 against a unit that rolls at 3)

You’re basically right of course, and I’d be reluctant about such a decision too. But like I said in my reply to LeClerc, I think Germany made a mistake here. And I’d somehow be tempted to try and exploit that mistake. Also, consider that when Sea Lion is coming, the bomber isn’t much of a defender, and if the attack does work, Germany’s loss is pretty big.
Let’s do the math. Chance that the bomber kills the cruiser = 2/3, chance that the cruiser kills the bomber = 1/2. That produces the following possibilities:
1. bomber lives, cruiser dies, so transports are dead too = 1/2 x 2/3 = 1/3
2. bomber dies, cruiser dies, so transports lives = 1/2 x 2/3 = 1/3
3. bomber dies, cruiser lives = 1/2 x 1/3 = 1/6
4. bomber lives, cruiser lives = 1/2 x 1/3 = 1/6
Number 3 is the really bad one. Number 4 is a reroll. Number one is the big win.
So that leaves number 2…. and now, there may be a little trick, if Germany left either Norway or Denmark empty. Not sure they did that because I didn’t ask, but who knows, maybe the German player wanted to “activate” those two guys in Denmark by marching them south. In that case, you may want to supplement the SZ 113 attack by taking Denmark, and now if number 2 of the above possibilities actually happens, you’re creating the threat of killing the transports with the French fighter.
And that would combine very well with Taranto. Send everything else there, and now Italy needs to decide whether to scramble. If they scramble and lose their planes, they can no longer land them in Western Germany to protect the German transports…. so Italy is facing a tough choice. You’d do Taranto first of course and SZ 113 afterwards.

A completely different approach would be, to try and keep the Royal Navy afloat in SZ 110. If that works, Sea Lion is just about dead. In that case, buy a CV for the UK and attack the German BB with everything (CC, DD, all planes). If Germany scrambles, the fight is still good for the UK, but the remaining fleet and planes would be too weak against the Luftwaffe G2, so I’d lose the CC and DD in that case, build the CV in SZ 106 (did anything happen there, by the way?) and send the SZ 109 transport that way as well. If Germany doesn’t scramble, put the CV in SZ 110 and the RN is alive.
In the Mediterranean, you could just kill SZ 96 with planes, and then sail the SZ 98 fleet to SZ 93, to team up with the French. And just leave that fleet there for a few turns: Italy won’t like to lose ships destroying it’ and Germany won’t like to lose planes. In the mean time, the fleet eats one of Italy’s NO’s, and convoys Southern France.

Anyway, just a few thoughts… there are various possibilities I’d say.

[WILD BILL]

Nice pick-up Herr KaLeun, about no scramblers on W Germany (big German boo-boo). You got to roll the dice on that one (Bmr vz cruiser). Taking Norway or Denmark (landing spot) as a back-up plan for the French fighter to do second run on the transports is awesome, but the Italians could fly a fighter to W Germany to scramble (if they see it).

Could also buy a carrier for the UK with intentions of mobilizing it in sz 110. This would allow for 1-2 more air units to hit sz113 w/bmr, and land on the new carrier. I might go with just the bmr, and 1 fighter though, because if he hits w/cruiser you could take the hit on the fighter, then you’re not obligated to drop the carrier in sz110 (could drop it in sz109, off Canada or S Africa). I think if you kill the transports the Sea lion threat would be over, but he could still drop more transports G2, so inf and/or ftr for UK may still be needed (but his attack is getting weaker).

If you mobilize the carrier in sz110 (w/2 ftrs), and NCM other ships to sz110 the Germans may feel they have to fight you (you would also have scramblers from UK). If you have also moved the Med navy to sz92 (like I describe above)  or placed it w/French in sz93 (like Herr KaLeun suggested), then they will have to deal with both UK navies, or maybe you get the chance to merge them into one large Royal Navy if the Germans take a pass on it.

Anyway you have set them back by killing his cruiser and transports (sz113), and either inflicted enough damage to the Luftwaffe (if he hits you), or you have a sizable navy that the Germans can’t deal with (or the Italians if you go Med). There is a growing contingent that says if you are more patient with the Italian navy, they will give you the opportunity to destroy them away from their air base (they have to come out and play sometime LOL)

[leontini]

thx for all the replies guys
in the end i choose for a taranto heavy move, this brought the center of the europe fighting in the med, we are now in turn 3, the germans still not declared war on russia so i begin to say to my russian allies to prepare to be a little more aggressive, cause germany is spending a lot in the med and his kriegsmarine is inside (and they are really lucky with dices until now)

the situation now is chenaged cause we are really fighting for cairo (and the italians are now the faction that has to play)

Germans (possess southern France, Greece and marocco)

sz 93: 1 Carrier, 1 DD, 2 FIG
sz 92: 1 BS, 1 CC, 1 DD, 3 TRANS (with 3 INF, 1 ART inside)
Southern Italy: 2 FIG, 2 TAC, 1 Bomber

Italians (possess Gibraltar)

sz 92: 1 CC, 1 DD, 1 TRANS
sz 95: 1 TRANS
Southern Italy: 2 Inf 1 FIG
Northern Italy: 3 INF, 1 ART
Tobruk: Starting Line up

UK

Cairo: 6 INF, 1 ART, 4 TANK, 3 FIG, 2 TAC
sz 98: 1 DD
sz 81; 2 TRANS, 2 DD, 1 BS, 1 CC

in cairo there’s a Factory and an airbase

Alexandria: 1 Inf
Trans - Jordan 1 Inf

[ghr2]

Seems like India might be in a bit of trouble if you really pulled the indian airforce off.

[WILD BILL]

So Germany faked Sea lion, and went full tilt Med. Hmm, sounds like you have done a great job in distracting him from either of his top priorities (taking Moscow, or taking London). When the US comes over the Germans won’t have the Med either lol

[ItIsILeClerc]

You may want to be careful of an Axis economic victory.
I don’t know the US’ status in your game, but I had major problems in 2 recent games because the USA could only start fighting US4.

If this is the case in your game, there are numerous dangers for the allies with this axis one. I speak from unpleasant exerience ;-). Since I don’t know your exact situation, I’ll just sum a few:

• Loosing Gibraltar which is turned into an unconquerable axis fortress.
  Unconquerable as in too much investments from the USA required to take it back=> Axis win a 6VC victory in the Pacific. Personally, I don’t see any allied offensive operations in Europe with an axis fortress Gibraltar (strong navy, 4-6 transports, strong airforce, lots of troops). Over time, due to the lack of a ‘second front’,  Germany can focus its IPCs east, potentially still birdcage Russia without conquering Moscow=> economic victory.

• Loosing Egypt and subsequently all of the ME with it. Be aware of Germans who advance all the way onto Moscow and then turn south.

• Egypt changing hands every turn, with Germany securing Caucasus + Stalingrad.
  Should only be a problem if the USA doesn’t spend enough IPCs in Europe to gain some permanent footholds there. UK defending ME and fighting both ME and Western Europe alone is too much for it. Maybe an alternative is if the USA can get some valuable Islands in the Pacific, but I don’t have much experience with that: requires a pure KJF.

Regardless what you do, you must force Germany to send (almost) all of its initial Luftwaffe into Russia. If they cannot Birdcage Russia they cannot win.
Key for this is building (just) enough fast units early on so the Red Army can defend at Belarus if Germany has no TAC + FTR around. Belarus and later on Bryansk. Possibly with some RAF help. The UK should have some ready @ Persia to send over to Bryansk, after the Germans bounced off Belarus and turned south. With that AB in Egypt, the RAF can also fly from Egypt to Bryansk (one of the reasons why I build an AB in Egypt if I do).
Second very important thing: a second front must be opened in West Europe. If Germany can focus all of its income Southeast, they have an easy game. Preferably you bomb German factories every turn as well…

[KaLeu]

@WILD:

So Germany faked Sea lion, and went full tilt Med. Hmm, sounds like you have done a great job in distracting him from either of his top priorities (taking Moscow, or taking London). When the US comes over the Germans won’t have the Med either lol

Exactly!

What’s the situation on the eastern front? I see a lot of German money flowing towards the Kriegsmarine here: a CV, 2 DD, 2 TR. Plus that airbase in Holland/Belgium. If Russia bought land units only, which they normally would, then I don’t see Germany doing well in the east.

The situation reminds me of one of my rare over-the-board games, when I played Russia, and Germany focused on fighting the UK a bit, ruling the Med, trying to help Italy take Egypt…. all very wonderful, but I DOW’d him R4 and stomped into Scandinavia with my Novgorod stack. Russia normally can’t afford to do that, because those units are needed to defend Moscow, but Germany had just failed to build the land units to take Moscow anyway. Finland and Norway in Russian hands meant +11 for Russia (income + NO) and -10 for Germany (income + NO). He still marched into Novgorod, but with Russian income well above 50, the Red army ruled.
And of course at that very moment, the US was eying Gibraltar. The Axis didn’t last long.

[leontini]

@ herr Kaleun

the global european situation is now this one (Round 4 Germany and Russia already played)

Germany

Poland: 2 Inf, 1 Mech
Eastern Poland: 19 Inf, 5 Mech, 5 Art, 9 Tank, 2 AAA, 2 Italian Tank
Romania: 3 Inf
Finland: 8 Inf, 1 Art
his chain of supplies is limited at
Germany: 2 Tank, 1 Mech

in the med/middle east

Greece: 6 Inf, 1 Tank, 2 Fig, 2 Tac, 1 Bomber, 1 Italian Fig, Airbase
Sirya: 4 Inf, 2 Art, 2 Tank, 1 Tac
Algeria: 1 Inf
Southern France: 1 Inf, 1 Tank
SZ 99: 4 Trans, 1 Carrier with 2 FIG, 1 DD, 1 CC, 1 BS
SZ 98: 1 DD
SZ 93: 1 Trans

Italy

Alexandria: 2 Inf, 1 Mech, 1 Art, 1 Tank
Syria: 2 Inf, 2 Art
Southern Italy: 2 Inf
Northern Italy: 3 Inf, 2 Art

SZ 95: 2 DD, 1 Trans
SZ 99: 2 Trans, 1 CC

UK

Egypt: 4 Inf, 1 Art, 4 Tanks, 2 Fig, 2 Tac, 1 AAA, Airbase, Factory plus 2 Anzac inf, 1 French inf, 1 French FIG

SZ 81; 1 BS, 2 DD, 1 CC, 2 Trans

RUSSIA

Baltic States,Belarus,Bessarabia, Vyborg,Karelia: 1 Inf
Western Ukraine: 4 Inf
Ukraine: 17 Inf, 3 Art
Bryansk: 12 Inf, 2 Art, 3 Mech, 4 Tanks, 1 AAA
Novgorod: 11 Inf, 2 Art, 2 Tank, 1 FIG, 1 TAC
Rostov, Volgograd: 3 Inf

i think they are now even faking cairo to get middle east, i’m wondering if is time to make some counterattack, maybe in alexandria from Egypt
My real problem in england is that he got 2 subs really close so i can’t buy transport if i don’t rebuild a navy, cause quite all the west european cost is empty and i would like to start moving that huge amount of Inf i got in england

[ItIsILeClerc]

@Herr:

(…)
The situation reminds me of one of my rare over-the-board games, when I played Russia, and Germany focused on fighting the UK a bit, ruling the Med, trying to help Italy take Egypt… all very wonderful, but I DOW’d him R4 and stomped into Scandinavia with my Novgorod stack. Russia normally can’t afford to do that, because those units are needed to defend Moscow, but Germany had just failed to build the land units to take Moscow anyway. Finland and Norway in Russian hands meant +11 for Russia (income + NO) and -10 for Germany (income + NO). He still marched into Novgorod, but with Russian income well above 50, the Red army ruled.
And of course at that very moment, the US was eying Gibraltar. The Axis didn’t last long.

It looks your opponent really sent a lot of IPCs into the med. As much as he would throw against London during a True Sea Lion.
By comparison, that would roughly be 30 + 98 (two turns worth of buying ships) + 115 (TUV of forces sent to London that won’t return to fight against Russia) = 243 IPCs sent elsewhere.

But maybe we should forget about mathematical IPC-comparisons :P.
From a strategical point of view, I think Russia is in the position of attacking Scandinavia if they can defend @ Belarus (or even at East Poland!) after sending in units into Scandinavia.
Maybe there is still a margin for Russia to attack Scandinavia even if they can’t hold @ Belarus, but I often wondered where the breaking point lies.

@leontini,
you really should include information about the USA.
There is no way the UK can get a TRS-fleet in the Atlantic ready in time without the help from the USA to protect it. You need to cooperate very closely with Roosevelt!
It usually takes 2-3 CV + 4-6 FTR + 2 DD + 3FTR (scramblers) at minimum to protect your transports from a combined strike of the Luftwaffe and the kriegsmarine (subs also kriegsmarine) and this is something the UK cannot produce on its own, not even if it’s not fighting for its life in Africa…
Well, they can (in Canada), but that will just take too long, roughly 4 turns, and will drain all IPCs into Canada. So no more spending anywhere else. 4 turns of producing means that you can start threatening Western Europe from turn 9 and that is way too late. You need the USA, so what is their status?

[leontini]

here we go with

USA

Eastern United States: 3 Inf, 3 Mech, 1 Tank, 2 Art, 2 FIG, 1 Bomber
SZ 101: 1 BS, 1 Carrier, 1 CC, 2 DD, 4 Trans

Western United States: 2 Inf, 1 Mech, 1 Art
SZ 10: 2 BS, 4 CC, 2 Carier, 3 DD, 1 Sub, 3 Trans, 3 FIG, 1 Tac

[ItIsILeClerc]

I’m not sure if you are actually looking for help to proceed beyond this point so I’ll remain silent about that for now ;-).
Shouldn’t be too much of a problem in this situation to cooperate with the USA and build a combined fleet in the Atlantic.

[leontini]

in truth i need some help cause i’m really afraid about middle east, and i don’t know if is better now to keep continuing building stuff in egypt and south africa or do some other thing

in my mind the idea was to enter the med with the fleet so i can make a counterattack in alexandria starting to wipe the italians from north africa, or if i still need to keep buyng land stuff in egypt and use the fleet to bring 4 lamd pieces plus the Inf i got in persia to prevent axis to keep even the iraq Inf and points

[ghr2]

The US Pac fleet should go to hawaii or Queens asap.