Thank you for the report. Sorry it did not go as planned.
I think the problem is Russia’s weakness. (Sorry to bring up a different problem/issue.)
Russia making 20, when Germany makes 60 T5-7 is the problem .
Why should it be a German NO to hold Leningrad, Stalingrad and the Caucasus, but not a Russian one? Surely it is as much a Russian political victory to hold them? Playing more and more against good Axis players (here on the forum )who storm Russia, has
made me see the futility of the Allied game.
If is wrong that the UK should rescue Russia and have yo come up through the Middle East. Russia held in real life and always had tonnes of Inf.
Don’t mean to be a pain. Always good to hear what you are thinking and planning YG.
Yeah I suspected that UK might not be strong enough to defend London, Africa and India at the same time with OOB NOs. However under the set up I was planning UK receives substantially more IPCs per round on the VC bonus.
I would not object to the commonwealth including south Africa.
For consistency all Dominions should probably get chipped to Commonwealth. So Newfoundland, S.A, S.W. Africa.
I tend to agree with Wittman. I don’t see why all nations couldn’t get a bonus for VC control. 15 ipcs to Russia would be very helpful. Likewise a VC bonus to UK, America, or AfriCanzac could be helpful on balance. I’m basically opposed to NOs in general, but I understand that these are views which others might not share. Still, if new NOs are introduced on balance I would definitely suggest keeping them as simple and straightforward as possible.
Ps. Along those lines, I think an NO that references the “Atlantic” could be confusing for some. For example how exactly is the Atlantic defined spatially? Does it stop at the north sea? The English channel? etc. To me attaching NOs or geneic bonuses to VCs just seems simpler overall, so that’s my plan for it. But I can definitely see the argument for giving more income to UK.
Black Elk, I skimmed over your previous posts, but could you explain to me in the most simplistic way how this VC bonus rule instead of NO bonuses works?
You could strip all this down pretty easily into just a single universal NO:
+5 ipcs for control of a victory city.
That is the most basic way I can think of to put it. :-D
To see why we might do this, first look at the complex way OOB handles things regarding NOs…
Consider this, in OOB there are nearly 30 achievable objectives! Each one has its own complicated wording, and paragraphs of associated text in the rulebook. Most of these are weighted towards the Axis. Lets just look at Germany alone: Germany has five distinct OOB National Objectives, which taken together can produce up to 41 ipcs of additional NO money for Germany!!! This is because of how the first and last german NO read, (allowing +5 or +2 for multiple territories.) Is it really necessary for us to have such a complex NO system in Halifax?
Note also, that unlike AA50 where NOs were written down on the unit box set up card, in g40 these things have to be referenced out of a rule book. A VC bonus by contrast is simple, as all VCs are written directly on the map (thus everyone can see what’s what, and know who stands to gain which amount of objective cash.)
Then if more money is needed on top of this, you could add in distinct NOs one at a time. Start perhaps with just 6, one for each nation (plus the VC thing.)
Honestly, just compare the OOB NOs for Germany with Russia. The former is collecting a huge pot each round from the very begining, the latter collects practically nothing, as most of their objectives are not achievable! Or at best they’re not achievable until the game is pretty much decided anyway. Not only are the OOB NOs not evenly distributed, their values are inconsistent, and many are just downright confusing. Read the first Russian NO for example. Could it be any more wordy? hehe
So anyway, that’s my take on it. I think you could get a lot accomplished with the VC objective made generic, and then just add whatever else is needed on top. We already have to get rid of NOs for UK/Anzac regardless, I say we just go the full distance and simplify things for all nations like that.
How about this…
Generic Objective +5 for control of a VC
National Objective +10 for (something specific)
At least then you could make it a +10 spot that was easy to remember. And if it was necessary to give one nation an easy +10, while making another’s +10 very hard to acquire, then you can. Its easy. Essentially I’m saying, before we add just a bunch of NO stuff, lets cut out the fluff first.
Ps. Also, think about the potential advantage here of creating a board set up that leaves “National” Objectives optional. THAT would be HUGE!
Instead of all the OOB national objectives, step one is “scrap all OOB National Objectives.” Since any new objectives have to be written down regardless, isn’t it better to start with a fresh clean page? Or a brand new Objective card for each Nation?
This would allow us a convenient way to take the OOB 30 NOs down to just 6 really well balanced NOs, of the necessary type/value to achieve rough balance by sides under this set up. If we want to make it more expansive after that point, then you could give each nation a second optional set for a total of a dozen NOs (only if you wanted to though, something that could be left at the player’s discretion.)
With the Generic Objective +5 for VCs, you could still add in a cool “gameplay affecting” optional NO for each nation.
So say you want Japan or USA to have an NO that deals with zero ipc islands in the Pacific, and makes them contested. You could give Japan a single National Objective +10 that involves those territories specifically. Likewise you could have one for America that does the same. Or for a Nation like Russia, say you wanted to give them a bonus that makes sense you could add a single NO +10 for that. If an OOB NO seems particularly awesome and apt, then adapt it to the new National Ojective card, if not ditch it for an new NO that works better.
The overriding idea though, is keep it simple.
1 NO for each or
2 NOS (at most) for each Nation
On top of the basic VC thing
or how about this… say you wanted to create a rough parity between the new production rules/values and the new Objective rules/values.
maybe…
National Objective +10
Major Objective +5 for control of a VC
Minor Objective +3 (for some minor but novel accomplishment)
Then you have them at basically the same values as the 3 tiered factory. Green, Red, and Blue objectives. And the VCs are already printed on the gamemap with a red dot anyway, so it all fits visually.
This would give you a way to basically balance the sides along a couple different dimensions. The VC objective would be the same for everyone and allow a much needed way to get some basic extra money into the game.
Each Nation gets a single Minor NO, and a single Major NO.
How easy they are to achieve can be determined by the gameplay or balance requirements. So for example, one nation might have a fairly easy Major NO, another might have one that’s very challenging. The same thing could be done with Minor NOs.
Because the VC thing is universal, its easy to remember.
All the rest you have reduced to a simple Dozen. One Major and one Minor Objective for each nation.
Then we could print a slick new card for each Nation that has them written down for easy reference. :-D
On each card the Major Objective written in blue (since its worth 10) and the Minor Objective written in green (since its worth 3), the Generic universal Objective “control of VC” could be written in Red (since its worth 5.)
Any takers?
I’ve been calculating in my head and the 5 IPCs per VC is very promising, if that “city” is at war. For example: the UK would get 5 IPCs for London and 5 IPCs for Cairo, but not 5 IPCs for Calcutta if not at war with Japan. This would also change my mind about SA as a Commonwealth.
Sounds cool to me. Do you dig this color consistency?
National Objective = +10 ipcs (one specific goal for each player nation)
Major Objective = +5 ipcs for control of each Victory City (generic goal for all player nations)
Minor Objective = +3 ipcs (one specific minor goal for each player nation)
The wording of the +5 VC Major objective could be whatever is needed, so if at war is best, then I’m down. I just think it has a nice simplicity to it, and could match the sort of visual representation we’ve been using all along here at 10, 5, 3.
On the cards the colors for objectives could also match up. :-D
Sounds cool to me. Do you dig this color consistency?
National Objective = +10 ipcs (one specific goal for each player nation)
Major Objective = +5 ipcs for control of each Victory City (generic goal for all player nations)
Minor Objective = +3 ipcs (one specific minor goal for each player nation)The wording of the +5 VC Major objective could be whatever is needed, so if at war is best, then I’m down. I just think it has a nice simplicity to it, and could match the sort of visual representation we’ve been using all along here at 10, 5, 3.
On the cards the colors for objectives could also match up. :-D
That’s cool, but at this point I’m only interested in how the $5 per VC plays out.
Yeah exactly, start with the VC +5 thing (which is convenient since VCS are marked on the map with a red dot.) See how the set up balances.
Then if necessary or desired, add in the next level with National Objectives, or Minor objectives, balanced for the gameplay based on just the simple VC situation.
Who knows though maybe we get lucky just on the VC balance, such that you don’t even need the extra layer on top unless you want it. Then the NOs would truly be optional, which would be kind of rad.
Here’s what might happen in most games using VCs worth $5 each (cities at war only) instead of NOs…
Round 1
Germany - NOs = $10 / VCs = $15
Russia - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Japan - NOs = $10 / VCs = $10
United States - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
China - NOs = $6 / VCs = $0
United Kingdom - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
Italy - NOs = $0 / VCs = $5
Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Axis - NOs = $20 / VCs = $30
Allies - NOs = $16 / VCs = $20
Round 2
Germany - NOs = $10 / VCs = $15
Russia - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Japan - NOs = $0 / VCs = $20
United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
United Kingdom - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
Italy - NOs = $5 / VCs = $5
Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Axis - NOs = $15 / VCs = $40
Allies - NOs = $30 / VCs = $40
Round 3
Germany - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
Russia - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
Japan - NOs = $5 / VCs = $20
United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
United Kingdom - NOs = $0 / VCs = $15
Italy - NOs = $5 / VCs = $5
Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Axis - NOs = $15 / VCs = $40
Allies - NOs = $30 / VCs = $55
Round 4
Germany - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
Russia - NOs = $8 / VCs = $15
Japan - NOs = $5 / VCs = $20
United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
United Kingdom - NOs = $0 / VCs = $15
Italy - NOs = $10 / VCs = $10
Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Axis - NOs = $20 / VCs = $45
Allies - NOs = $33 / VCs = $55
Round 5
Germany - NOs = $10 / VCs = $20
Russia - NOs = $8 / VCs = $10
Japan - NOs = $5 / VCs = $20
United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
United Kingdom - NOs = $0 / VCs = $15
Italy - NOs = $12 / VCs = $5
Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Axis - NOs = $27 / VCs = $45
Allies - NOs = $16 / VCs = $50
Here’s what happened:
G3 DOW and a J2 DOW
Italy took Cairo I4
UK liberated Cairo UK5
Germany took Paris GI
Germany took Leningrad G5
Very interesting YG! This is good stuff! Keep it comin’ :-)
Its interesting to see how that “at war” condition can effect things. Question though, wouldn’t it make more sense to do the DoW aspect for the entire Nation (and all VCs under its control) rather than by specific city? Because I think to be at war with anyone should be enough to activate them. I am leary of anything for example, that treats Calcutta differently from say London. If UK is at war with Germany, then it seems like India should count towards that effort, even if the war with Japan has yet to begin.
To keep everything as simple as possible at the outset, I am still testing a basic +5 at collect income for everybody just to see what values it produces. From the player’s standpoint this is really easy to add in, since you just count up the Red dot VCs under your control and take a 5 dollar bill from the bank for each one.
If, as expected, this basic lay out takes us from Axis always win, to somewhere on the “Allies win” side, then that is likely a small victory. Because what we could do then, is just add in whatever NOs we need on balance. So say for example that in the basic VC +5 game, Germany and Italy end up weaker, but Japan ends up stronger. Then when you add in the Axis NOs you could make the German and Italian ones easy, but the Japanese one hard to achieve. Likewise you could make all the Allied NOs hard to achieve relative to the Axis NOs.
Or Vice Versa, if the opposite balance is needed. Basically you see where the balance shakes down under the VC scheme first, and then bring NOs into it as needed.
Especially if you had two tiers of objective cash beyond the +5 VC (the +10 National Objective, and +3 Minor Objective) to work with. You could make these easier or harder to achieve by nation/side based on the new Halifax conditions rather than the OOB conditions.
This is an opportunity to be creative if we want, when it comes to which National or Minor objectives come into play, and how the values for them break down. The reason I like the automatic +5 for VC control is that its very easy to read. You don’t have to worry about “what just happened” with the territory, whether it was just captured or just liberated or not, whether its at war or anything else, the only thing you need to know is who controls it currently. Red dot for +5 at collect income, as basic as I could think to make it.
Right now it looks like this most basic bonus produces a set up more amenable to Allied victory. If it works, then solid, if not, we can still tweak it down to restrict the conditions for when the VC +5 is to be collected. (Whether at War or not, or if some other condition needs to apply, like being newly captured/re-captured etc.)
National Objective = +10 ipcs (one specific goal for each player nation)
Major Objective = +5 ipcs for control of each Victory City (generic goal for all player nations)
Minor Objective = +3 ipcs (one specific goal, or series of related goals, for each player nation)
Thinking about this some more, right now there a pretty much two kinds of NOs OOB, ones that deal with unit location (like naval NOs) and ones that deal with territories controlled.
I think you could put the wording on Major and Minor Objectives to give the flavor of both if you wanted.
The Major Objective +10 might read (+10 for control of territories A and B and C)
The Minor Objective +3 might read (+3 for control of any territory X or Y, or Z)
These for the Nations where Objectives like that make sense.
For other Nations you might have the Objectives read something like +10 or +3 for something related to Navies.
Basically whichever Objectives makes sense for that faction, and its income needs on Game balance. Does that make sense?
I agree, Calcutta should count, so 5$ for all VCs if you are at war with at least 1 Enemy power… that should even out that $20 swing for Japan.
National Objective = +10 ipcs (one specific goal for each player nation)
Major Objective = +5 ipcs for control of each Victory City (generic goal for all player nations)
Minor Objective = +3 ipcs (one specific goal, or series of related goals, for each player nation)Thinking about this some more, right now there a pretty much two kinds of NOs OOB, ones that deal with unit location (like naval NOs) and ones that deal with territories controlled.
I think you could put the wording on Major and Minor Objectives to give the flavor of both if you wanted.
The Major Objective +10 might read (+10 for control of territories A and B and C)
The Minor Objective +3 might read (+3 for control of any territory X or Y, or Z)
These for the Nations where Objectives like that make sense.For other Nations you might have the Objectives read something like +10 or +3 for something related to Navies.
Basically whichever Objectives makes sense for that faction, and its income needs on Game balance. Does that make sense?
This is a pretty cool idea and I would definitely like to see all the NOs for each level. However, for Halifax to stay simplistic and close to the core rules as possible, I think the VC idea is about as far out on a limb that I want to go. The thing about national objectives is that its like a sensitive eco system… it has to stay very balanced to what it once was, or everyone will reject it as being lop sided.
*EDITED TO INCLUDE CALCUTTA ROUND 1
Here’s what might happen in most games using VCs worth $5 each (nation must be at war with at least 1 enemy nation) instead of NOs…
Round 1
Germany - NOs = $10 / VCs = $15
Russia - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Japan - NOs = $10 / VCs = $10
United States - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
China - NOs = $6 / VCs = $0
United Kingdom - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
Italy - NOs = $0 / VCs = $5
Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Axis - NOs = $20 / VCs = $30
Allies - NOs = $16 / VCs = $25
Round 2
Germany - NOs = $10 / VCs = $15
Russia - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Japan - NOs = $0 / VCs = $20
United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
United Kingdom - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
Italy - NOs = $5 / VCs = $5
Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Axis - NOs = $15 / VCs = $40
Allies - NOs = $30 / VCs = $40
Round 3
Germany - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
Russia - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
Japan - NOs = $5 / VCs = $20
United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
United Kingdom - NOs = $0 / VCs = $15
Italy - NOs = $5 / VCs = $5
Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Axis - NOs = $15 / VCs = $40
Allies - NOs = $30 / VCs = $55
Round 4
Germany - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
Russia - NOs = $8 / VCs = $15
Japan - NOs = $5 / VCs = $20
United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
United Kingdom - NOs = $0 / VCs = $15
Italy - NOs = $10 / VCs = $10
Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Axis - NOs = $20 / VCs = $45
Allies - NOs = $33 / VCs = $55
Round 5
Germany - NOs = $10 / VCs = $20
Russia - NOs = $8 / VCs = $10
Japan - NOs = $5 / VCs = $20
United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
United Kingdom - NOs = $0 / VCs = $15
Italy - NOs = $12 / VCs = $5
Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
Axis - NOs = $27 / VCs = $45
Allies - NOs = $16 / VCs = $50
Here’s what happened:
G3 DOW and a J2 DOW
Italy took Cairo I4
UK liberated Cairo UK5
Germany took Paris GI
Germany took Leningrad G5
The extra cash in the game would really justify the Major factory capability of producing 5 units. That’s what I realized today when play testing… the Allies couldn’t take advantage of the extra production capabilities.
@Young:
Here’s what might happen in most games using VCs worth $5 each (nation must be at war with at least 1 enemy nation) instead of NOs…
So if Russia attacks Japan, should they get $15 for their VCs? it would give Russia the boost it needs to defend itself from a Moscow crush, and for Japan it would negate the Mongolians.
Yeah and you figure, like every A&A board in history, Russia is invariably the player who needs the cash infusion the most. :-D
Lets not forget after all, that there was a war here between Japan and Russia for a time. Remember Zhukov ;)
The non aggression neutrality pact itself wasn’t signed until 1941 (and even then Japan still considered breaking it.)
Basically the way everything shakes out, the Russians will be at war with Germany soon enough anyway. Seems fair to me to give them the VC loot from the first round if they declare.
Right now there is no real advantage for the Soviets to maintain the NAP with Japan anyway. Everyone I know always just declares against them in the first round regardless, with the NAP serving as little more than a showpiece. I prefer keeping it the same for everyone, so if Russia declares they should get it I think, same as the rest.
Like you, I was also thinking that a bit more cash to get the Majors up and running would be cool. In my experience most players enjoy a slight infusion of cash to the game, so long as it is evenly doled out. This way you bring a little in on all sides, enough IPCs to cover the spread, but without over-complicating the situation too much. Everyone gets to enjoy a few more ipcs for units to build, and new strategies can be worked out in response.
VC bonus +5
Just like the red chip, and the old red 5 dollar bill, all VCs are conveniently denoted on the map already with a Red dot. It’s kind of perfect
No need yet for more complex objectives. Everyone has the same simple goals, to take cities for the +5 ipcs. I think it could really work.
At any rate, it would make the Commonwealth, the new unified UK, and Russia! all pretty fun to play…
Here’s what I came up with…
VICTORY CITY BONUSES
Nations will no longer collect bonus income for national objectives, instead, during the collect income phase, each nation will collect victory city bonuses.
10 IPCs for each capital city
5 IPCs for each non-capital city
Nations may collect VC bonus income for every city they control, as long as they are at war with at least 1 other nation.
China may still produce artillery if the Burma road is open.
