William Shirer feels that there is no way Germany could have won the war. He argues that on a simply economic and industrial scale the Germans could never have competed in the long run with the Russians and the Western Allies. Yes, they could have marched into Moscow in 1941 but Napoleon DID in 1812. The Russians would most likely just have turned the Eastern Front into a giant guerilla war and sapped away at German strength. Probably a better idea would have been getting the oil in the Caucuses because in the long run the Germans ran into serious fuel shortages.
I do agree with Imperious about Hitler; he was not a great commander but he knew war and understood all the basics he needed to know, and if you’re going to fault him for some of his poor choices (i.e. consigning the 6th Army and Paulus to their death in Stalingrad by not letting them retreat and relying on Goering’s rediculous claims that he could supply them by air) you have to give him credit for calling Manstein out of retirement and using his plan to beat France (Schliffen’s plan would have failed) and the way his refusal to allow the German army to retreat in the Winter of 1941-1942 staved off what would have been a complete catastrophe which could have brought the war to an end much more quickly.
At the end of the day, Hitler just ended up with too many enemies and he didn’t understand them. He didn’t understand why England didn’t want to split the world with him… after backstabbing so many other countries. He didn’t understand why the English wouldn’t surrender… even though they knew his navy was badly shaken by the losses in Norway (which, btw, was a brilliant move by Hitler in denying it to England). He didn’t understand why the Russians didn’t rise up against the Soviet government when he invaded… even though Goering was making plans for the mass importation of grains that would have probably starved 20-25 million Russians to death by 1944 and the SS was butchering Russian peasants at the slightest provocation. And finally he didn’t understand why the Western Allies didn’t help him against the Soviet Union to the end, even as they were crossing the Rhine.
Why are we giving him credit for beating the French? The Maginot-line was such a blunder.
Hitler’s biggest problem, which Kyrail was talking about
“At the end of the day, Hitler just ended up with too many enemies and he didn’t understand them.”
Hitler was extremely fanatic and radical. Every great leader should know how to compromise.
Why are we giving him credit for beating the French?
Because in spite of all the advice to attack the French in the conventional manner , he sought the wisdom of an even greater plan from lowly Manstein and saw its brilliance. Nobody was a better judge of character than Hitler. He expertly knew talent and how to organize it for his own purposes. All leaders made many tragic mistakes in the war. Due to Germany’s allready increasingly precarious position on the world stage… its margins of what could be pursued based on resources were never balanced. He overreached for Hegemony too soon and lost his chance to make a new world. A more studied approach in stages should have netted much better results. example:
stage one–summer 1940: go after afrika and the middle east.
stage two: after taking the oil, the Balkans, and India, furish the Italian fleet with oil to get out of the medd.
stage three: continued build up, make Spain and Turkey axis partners, link up with Japan in the orient
Stage four: after sufficient tech is developed send at least 250 divisions attacking from Turkey, Afganistan, eastern Europe etc with jet fighter and bombers
and never declare war on USA… throw that con tract in the trash can > japan did nothing to make the alliance profitable for Germany. Its like having a second Italy to kick around or trying to win a gold metal in the olympics… with the gold metal winner of the special olympics :|
Germany could never have taken over the whole world alone. Germany and Japan together have better odds, but still not really possible. Japan did force the US to divert resources to china and the pacific, but yeah, Jap didn’t really do much. We can both agree that Jap was better than Italy though right?
Freaky!!!
I went to post and was told anther post had been added. I went back and refreshed…
NO NEW POST!!
Cra87 was already there with “Germany could never…”
I reread page one and jumped to page four to do a quick update.
I recall an old, long lost post by “The Ol’ Gang”. Many have moved on to other things, but I read…
one suggestion to help Germany was an attack on Japan’s part.
1) Japan should have hit the OIL REFINERIES ON HAWAII!!
This would have set the US Defense/offense perimiter back 2000 miles. Leaving San D., Los A. and San F. open to attack…Needing more defense!!
2) Larger German U-boat #s would have helped cut the convoy lifeline.
Kicking Allied 4ss @ Dunkirk woulda hurt.
Finishing off the BEF airfields woulda been smarter than getting angry at one lost bomber.(Attack on Brit airfields was redirected to bomb London.)
5)Having winter uniforms available for german troops who would be in the rodina from June, 1941 through December, 1941 woulda been a good ideer. A flawless Barbie Plan on a front that long woulda been a miracle. As it was the Reds almost lost it. #s was about their only advantage. And Zhukov.
Japan should have invaded Hawaii and sunk large ship in the Panama canal
Hitlers own battle plan was implemented for the attack on belguim, and the low countries. Belgians boasted many great fortresses to stop an invasion and germany cut through them, impressively and with alot of artillery. Holland was quick work, france then to norway.
It was a good initial plan.
Japan was a huge power. In some naval battles i argue that luck was just on our side. Japan had a huge fleet. Somehow we outmanueverd it. The fighting for the islands was intense and way harder than the germans for us. The logistics of getting supplies all the way across the ocean was a hamper which the japanese knew. If Japan didnt screw with china, they could have been able to take Austrailia, but such a landmass would be tough to garrison. Hell even with them in china they had a chance to take Austrailia, albeit a small one. Without a nuke or bio or chem weapons there was no way in hell of taking japan– only with a ton of casualties.
After reading most of the post it seems that Germany should have picked off one enemy at a time Hitler made to many fronts and thus did what most great nations before their demise(Rome) was the unability to keep what he had and both defend and to be able to gain ground. Japan maybe could have done more but When your on an Island and your getting your ships blown up there is really little you can do.
just little things that the axis didn’t do ended up being bigger problems as the war went on…
from what I understand, Japan actually had some of the best submarines around that time… where they using them effectively to sink supply ships etc?? not really…
Like Swtich pointed out earlier… Japan while it had the initiative after the pear Harbour attack could of did a lot more damage to the ship-building yards, some oil supply etc… (which would of bought them the time to finish the air-fields at full strenght on there bottom laying islands etc…) Japan knew well they would have to be on the defensive pretty much after they hit the united states. and that was there plan actually just to make a defensive perimeter that included Midway island…
If Japan could of produced many more subs and used them effectively… it would have had a more huge effect…that means the states would have to transfer ships from there atlantic fleets that were busy as it was with the german u-boats… (especially in 1942 when U-boats were being replaced faster then they were being destroyed and they were enjoying huge success at this time in the atlantic.
also i’m under the understanding… most of the factories for the allies were being run by the ladies… the axis never caught on to this effect to closer to the end of the war…( I’m just saying they didn’t capitalize on there production when they could of, definetly hurt as the war progressed.)
The Germans should of used the prisoners more effectively instead of killing them all. Also the attack on Russia wasn’t totally there doom, the “DOOM” of the germans was they wern’t treating anybody nicely…
for instance when they invaded russia early on…Ukraine and them western states of russia were at first actually “Happy” they were being liberated from the Russians/Stalin. my point is if the germans had treated them nicely here and went along with the yes we are liberating you from the evil stalin propaganda. they would of helped the germans by lots of means also joining there armies and huge ranks. but this was not the case. the SS came in right away and started exterminating tons of people right away…
this is my short take on it. long post i know.
The Germans should of used the prisoners more effectively instead of killing them all. Also the attack on Russia wasn’t totally there doom, the “DOOM” of the germans was they wern’t treating anybody nicely….
for instance when they invaded russia early on…Ukraine and them western states of russia were at first actually “Happy” they were being liberated from the Russians/Stalin. my point is if the germans had treated them nicely here and went along with the yes we are liberating you from the evil stalin propaganda. they would of helped the germans by lots of means also joining there armies and huge ranks. but this was not the case. the SS came in right away and started exterminating tons of people right away…this is my short take on it. long post i know.
Thats a very good point. Imagine if the Germans had treated Jews good. You never know, maybe they could have recruited several thousand Jewish men to fight for them. But of course Hitler hated everyone, so that possibility was ruled out.
Thats kinda like saying “if Satan didnt want to harm people” The entire concept of Hitler was to destroy what he regarded as unfit to live in a triumphant German Reich. Simply no method could be accomodating to keep them alive for such a purpose.
@Imperious:
Thats kinda like saying “if Satan didnt want to harm people” The entire concept of Hitler was to destroy what he regarded as unfit to live in a triumphant German Reich. Simply no method could be accomodating to keep them alive for such a purpose.
And thats why he failed to win WWII. :evil:
This is all just regurgitated bits and pieces from history books. How many of you have went to Russian or German or any Allied archives,or interviewed people who were actually there,to come up with your conclusions? :roll: Quit posting “if-this-would-have-happened,then-that-could-have-happened”. 99 percent of the posts on this subject are plagiaristic in one form or another,especially Imperious Leaders drivel.
@balaf:
In some naval battles i argue that luck was just on our side.
Midway Islands naval battle alone was a big Ouch!
Lotsa American mistakes in that one but the Japs made a coupla more…
Japs thought they sank the entire US carrier fleet at Midway…
USS Hornet & USS Enterprise, but in reality…
they sank the USS Yorktown 1 and 1/2 times!!
The Germans did use POW’s to work on some projects, like the V-2 missles.
I think I heard somewhere that the Japs used Subs in formations instead of supply line cutting stealth missions.
And I also agree with Hydra.
99 percent of the posts on this subject are plagiaristic in one form or another,especially Imperious Leaders drivel.
New concept: If you don’t like the thread don’t post in it… simple :roll:
BTW i just pulled that idea from a book and the internet. :-D
edited by Imperious for clarity.
@Imperious:
99 percent of the posts on this subject are plagiaristic in one form or another,especially Imperious Leaders drivel.
LOL! if it wasnt soo funny i’d cut that flame off at the head. I like how you added to the thread with your own take that has nothing to do with anything. New concept: If you don’t like the thread don’t post in it… simple :roll:
BTW i just pulled that idea from a book and the internet.
OMGWTFBBQ!! You got pwned by IL!! :-D
Easy guys…
Lets stick to the topic guys. Everybody has a take and to not reflect on History’s success or failures is in itself a failure.
“If you dont learn from the past you will repeat it” as the saying goes ( not from the internet)
Hitler didnt learn from Napoleon. He didnt even read a book or the Internet to see he was commiting the same mistake. Thats why its important to learn the why and why not.
Im curious about so many “other” answers… what choices would you guys have made?
