I’ve also seen someone use an 8 bid to get another transport for this move. He took UK but America took it back and since there was no pressure on Russia for a few turns the guy ended up loosing.
Africa Folly for Germany?
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In reply to JWWII, I usually start with an AC and 8 INF on G1, on G2 I go all ground units (maybe 8 INF 4 ART), on G3 I buy lots of armor and on G4 I buy my med trannies to support Caucasus drop. With this build I try to take Caucasus on G5 and I still have some defensive piece against the allies. I must say that in order to buy those trannies on G4 the allies must be either doing a KJF or they split their effort against Japan and Germany. A good US player would not allow you to build a good Med fleet that late in the game by having a large fleet in the Atlantic ready to take your Med fleet.
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Look, I think you continually fail to see the overall picture. First, a 2 transport buy is recommended vs experts, because experts will realize that the math prefers the Baltic navy reinforced with just 2 transports. 2 transports is exactly the same you’d be buying a carrier with, so you have exactly the same number of land troops that you would with a carrier buy. 3 transports is merely to minimize luck and discourage/punish lesser experienced players if they attack the navy.
So Germany attacks with 3 transports, 1 destroyer, 5 fighters, 1 bomber (attack power = 22 = about 4 hits), Allied defense is 1 fig 1 car 2 sub 1 tran 1 bb (defense power = 16 = about 3 hits). On Round 1 the German’s attack power has diminished a whopping zero points with 3 transports lost while the UK has lost 5 points (2 sub and 1 tran, 1 battleship absorbs a hit). On Round 2 the rest of the Allied fleet sinks to the bottom of the ocean perhaps claiming one fig as well as the destroyer. And realize I’m being generous here, as we’re assumign that your 2 figs + 1 bomber take out 2 subs, which happens 66% of the time, which is ignoring a significant 33% portion of the time where you only inflict 1 submarine damage. Would you trade 1 fig + baltic fleet to have taken out 2 figs, 2 subs, 1 carrier, 1 battleship, 1 transport? Hell yes!
Losing the G1 build in a naval battle on G2 where that build does not even offer any offensive punch is SILLY.
You keep thinking that the whole point of the transport buy centrally revolves around invading UK. This is not the case.
You also keep saying that oh no, the Baltic fleet is going to die. Well guess what, it always does! The question is, how does it die? If you get the UK to foolishly block SZ6 on UK1, then the Baltic fleet has died extremely well.
Let’s say that they kill the whole Allied fleet, and lose NO air force. Â Best case scenario right? Â But the Baltic Fleet is SUNK.
Now, in UK2, UK buys another AC and a TRN
US2: Â 2 TRN from SZ8 to SZ6 w/ new AC. Â Offload US land forces already in UK to Norway. Â Fly FIG from UK to AC.
USA1 build moves up to SZ8, with land forces offloaded to UK.Care to point out the flaw?
Again, I so say what? The Baltic fleet is sunk, but so is most of the UK fleet. You’ve forced the UK to buy TWO CARRIERS and a SUB for crying out loud. That makes the UK look pretty damn silly I think (increased their land offensive against Germany by zero for 40 IPCs spent), and they have yet to rebuild another 2-3 transports and men and have no more fighters or bb shots. The UK offloads in T3, not T1 or T2. The flaw is you seem to have a double standard - you don’t care that the Baltic fleet will die anyways even with a carrier buy, and probably not doing much damage at all since you retreat the fighters when the battle will not favor you. A 2 tran buy allows you to easily wipe out a UK naval block with 1 or quite possibly no luftwaffe casualties.
Not to mention, US hasn’t landed in Algeria on T1 like you normally like to do because of the Med fleet. In fact, what if I simply attack your US fleet in SZ8 as well on G2 with the med fleet? If your SZ1 UK transport didn’t go there, it’s 80+% for the German fleet to win. If your UK transport is there for a force of 3 tran 1 destroyer, the Germans are still slated to win about 58% of the time, and will very likely have nailed all 3 transports. No landing in Norway for you until turn 3.
This is not to say that there aren’t easy/good counters against a 2-3 tran buy, and this is not to say that a carrier isn’t a good standard buy, but simply that I don’t think that your counter to a 2 tran buy makes much economic sense. You lose a ton of UK equipment and have to rebuild it….remember 40 IPCs spent towards zero offense against Germany (2 car + 1 sub), no more fighters or BB shots, and have to rebuild all transports from scratch if you defended SZ8…and all the Germans did was build 2 transports (precisely the same number of IPCs as carrier) and maybe use up 1 fig from their airforce.
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I understand now WOOD, G tran med buy trn 4 under certain conditions.
A ? for TRI, you like the G 2 tran buy more than AC, which makes sense to me in your argument. Do you favor this buy more than a 2 sub buy as well? If so, is it due solely to the defense against AF?
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The two Transport purchase, if NOT dealt with, allows Germany a great deal of flexibility in the north, especially if followed up with a Carrier on G2. As Tri said, the idea is not to take Britain, but to gain the initiative. From G2 on 6 Inf can be moved to Karelia, or take back Norway if in allied hands.
If Britain moves up to block, mutual annhilation of the UK fleet and German Baltic fleet (with 2 Transports added) on G2 is absolutely to German advantage, and here’s why-
According to Switch he would have purchased a Carrier and sub on UK1. Another Carrier would then be purchased on UK2. That’s 40 IPCs in material. I assume Transports would still have to be built to allow for ground troops to start helping to defend Russia. In the meantime Africa has had no British troops to start cleaning it up from the initial German invasion and move south. If the British pulled out of India to slow Germany down then Japan has no opposition, and Switch being our resident Japanese expert knows that soon you’ll have a GIGANTIC Japan. If the British try to slow down Japan in India, Germany with any competent play eventually makes it to S Africa, with Japan eventually smashing routinely into Egypt, Persia, and I E Africa. In the meantime Japan has, at their leisure, taken Hawaii, New Zealand, and Australia. British economy is evaporating.
My point is… while Britain is spending precious IPCs resurrecting a fleet, and not placing any (or at the most minimal) boots on the ground while cranking up again, it’ll find itself making around 20 IPCs with almost no airforce. Germany has bought time.
I realize that I’m echoing much of what Tri said, but it’s because what he said was sound thought. I hope that I added the bigger picture of the ripple effects that it might have on the rest of the game.
That’s my opinion… but I might just be a silly idiot who makes bad moves.
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Thx 88 millimeter :-D
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Agreed.
You can’t let the Baltic fleet live past the second round… Here is what normally happens in our games if the Germans place a substantial build in the Baltic on G1(usually a pair of trannies or an AC with planes landing from mainland). The Brit player buys planes, as many as he can build. He moves his fleet into SZ3… Taking Norway if he can. The Russians on R2 move their sub into SZ6. This prevents the Germans from bringing the Baltic fleet with their planes to prematurely sink her majesty’s fleet. Most of the time, in our games, the most the Germans can bring by air against the fleet in SZ3 is 3 planes and a bomber(2 planes on carrier, 1 fig from WEU, and bomber from Germany-- one would be lost to siniking of Brit Med BB in G1, one plane is in Libya from the assault on Egy in G1, and the last is in SEU from the attack on the Brit DD in the Med). The odds in that fight are against the planes… That being said… Unless the German’s want to spend more costly IPCs on the Baltic fleet, the Brits will be able to bring at least a BB, 2 trannies, a bomber, and 4(possibly 5)figs against the AC, 2 figs, 2subs, DD, and tranny in the Baltic. This is a 90% win for the allies, and the potential is there for the BB to live. The Brits generally build an AC and a tranny in the second round to begin their replacement, and a pair of Trannies in GB3. With the Baltic fleet out of the way, the Brits can start landing troops about anywhere(which the Americans would be doing in round 3). If the Germans build navy in round 2, they are giving up precious time to make land grabs from the Russians. In our games, the Russian player is aggressive in the first 1-2 rounds, then turtles up a bit when the Germans can start making a strong push in G3. Unfortunately, the Germans won’t be in a position to make a really strong push if they spent 24-32 IPCs in the first 2 rounds on their Baltic fleet… Just my thoughts.
Wilk
@88:
The two Transport purchase, if NOT dealt with, allows Germany a great deal of flexibility in the north, especially if followed up with a Carrier on G2. As Tri said, the idea is not to take Britain, but to gain the initiative. From G2 on 6 Inf can be moved to Karelia, or take back Norway if in allied hands.
If Britain moves up to block, mutual annhilation of the UK fleet and German Baltic fleet (with 2 Transports added) on G2 is absolutely to German advantage, and here’s why-
According to Switch he would have purchased a Carrier and sub on UK1. Another Carrier would then be purchased on UK2. That’s 40 IPCs in material. I assume Transports would still have to be built to allow for ground troops to start helping to defend Russia. In the meantime Africa has had no British troops to start cleaning it up from the initial German invasion and move south. If the British pulled out of India to slow Germany down then Japan has no opposition, and Switch being our resident Japanese expert knows that soon you’ll have a GIGANTIC Japan. If the British try to slow down Japan in India, Germany with any competent play eventually makes it to S Africa, with Japan eventually smashing routinely into Egypt, Persia, and I E Africa. In the meantime Japan has, at their leisure, taken Hawaii, New Zealand, and Australia. British economy is evaporating.
My point is… while Britain is spending precious IPCs resurrecting a fleet, and not placing any (or at the most minimal) boots on the ground while cranking up again, it’ll find itself making around 20 IPCs with almost no airforce. Germany has bought time.
I realize that I’m echoing much of what Tri said, but it’s because what he said was sound thought. I hope that I added the bigger picture of the ripple effects that it might have on the rest of the game.
That’s my opinion… but I might just be a silly idiot who makes bad moves.
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A couple of issues:
1. The British navy is susceptible to being hit by 2 subs as well as about 3-4 fighters + 1bomber if they take Norway and have the Russian sub “block” the Baltic navy. Subs can sail through all naval units unless there’s a destroyer present. Therefore, the attack in SZ3 favors the Germans at no cost to their airforce unless you buy a navy.
2. You miss the second part of the equation which is the med fleet is going to Gibraltar on G1 so the fleets are linking on G2. The British can’t afford to try to take out the linked fleets on G2. 5 fighters + 1 bomber + 2 tran + 1 battleship loses 73% of the time against 2 fighter, 1 carrier, 3 subs, 1 battleship, 1 destroyer, and 2 transports.
That being said, there are still very easy counters to a German navy which is attempting to link, but none of the answers I like have to do with the UK spending so much money on carriers/fighters early on when you can have the US do it for you.
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A couple of issues:
1. The British navy is susceptible to being hit by 2 subs as well as about 3-4 fighters + 1bomber if they take Norway and have the Russian sub “block” the Baltic navy. Subs can sail through all naval units unless there’s a destroyer present. Therefore, the attack in SZ3 favors the Germans at no cost to their airforce unless you buy a navy.
2. You miss the second part of the equation which is the med fleet is going to Gibraltar on G1 so the fleets are linking on G2. The British can’t afford to try to take out the linked fleets on G2. 5 fighters + 1 bomber + 2 tran + 1 battleship loses 73% of the time against 2 fighter, 1 carrier, 3 subs, 1 battleship, 1 destroyer, and 2 transports.
That being said, there are still very easy counters to a German navy which is attempting to link, but none of the answers I like have to do with the UK spending so much money on carriers/fighters early on when you can have the US do it for you.
Let’s go back to my original post… I said Egypt was attacked… This means the German BB and tranny in the Med went east in G1. It is impossible for them to link with the Baltic fleet in G2. Also, go ahead and split that fleet… My combat sim tells me that the chances of losing both subs is about 70%. I’ll just attack the capital ships with the planes instead(97% chance of vicotry). The subs(if they don’t die in the attack in SZ3 on G2-chances are they will) in GB3 are next. Even if one of the subs survives, you splash the russian sub with a plane from SEU, and re-merge your fleet in SZ3, the subsequent counter(5 figs and a bomber against 1sub, AC, 2planes, DD, and tranny) attack is a 2-1 fight in favor of the allies. If the Axis get lucky, the Americans finish off what’s left in US2. Any way you look at it, I have have accomplished what I wanted to… The Baltic fleet is gone by GB3. Believe me, We have run into this scenario many times playing… The Baltic fleet has never been able to survive past the 3rd round. The reason we invest in the carrier is it prevents early invasion attempts by Britain and the US.
Wilk
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But 3 rounds with no Allies troops in Europe… VERY nice for Germany.
All the Germany fleets are is to stall/slow the Allies a couple of rounds. 16 IPC’s is all it costs, and UK has to wait until UK4 to start landing troops…
4 rounds of RUssia alone with Germany… NOT pretty…
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I can’t deny that you can get rid of the Baltic fleet by UK3, but lots of people really like to miss the main point of the Baltic navy - what does it take out? If it takes out 2 transports and a battleship, and perhaps a fighter, as well as force the UK to build a carrier or 2 and lots of fighters when they could instead be landing earlier with transports, then I think the Baltic navy has done a great job.
There are easy ways to dance around the Baltic navy that don’t require you doing silly things like exposing your bb/2 trans to an attack by 2 subs + airforce.
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An SZ12 US/UK fleet consolidation being one of those :-)
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@ncscswitch:
An SZ12 US/UK fleet consolidation being one of those :-)
Hmmm… 4 trannies, 1BB, 1sub, and 1DD off the coast of algeria by G2… The most the Germans can bring to it if the fig dies in the Ukraine in R1, and a fig is left in SEU after the attack in Egypt(SZ15) on G1, and the sub lives killing the BB in the Med in G1… Germans can at most bring… 4 figs, a bomber, and a sub… Since the Russian sub would have first strike on German sub(DD negates German first strike)… That battle is less than 50/50 for Germans… With the UK building trannies on GB1, and the US building an AC and trannies in US1… You could merge the fleets west of GB-- (if attack in G2 doesn’t happen) would be around 8 trannies(4uk, 4us), 2DD(us), BB(uk), AC(us), 2 planes(us), and a sub(rus) in a position to strike either Norway or WEU in force in round 3… interesting… I like it, Switch…
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Overall, I believe it is worth while for Germany to make an attempt to take Africa. The German Med fleet is in trouble to begin with so make the British use their units to attack the fleet after dumping off an infantry and artillery into Anglo-Egypt. Force the UK to use their forces to keep Africa from falling into the German’s hands.
If Germany holds some of Africa, then there are less IPCs going into an invasion of Germany. If the US or UK move to bail out Africa, then there are less units going to invade Germany.
Overall, the German effort is minimal and the Allied effort is significant. This fits into my book as a “worthy” cause, but don’t get your hope up too high on taking over the entire continent.
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Agreed
Germany can grap up and extra 5-7 IPCs for about 3-4 rounds in Africa. Most Brit players will give up the 3IPCs in India to keep Germany from picking up 10 in Africa. I have played 3 mock games using switch’s strategy of merging the fleets off of Algeria in round 1 after Germany took Egypt. I had GB building trannies in round one, and pulling troops off of India and shoring up southern africa. With the combined builds of GB and the US, Germany was never in a position to threaten that navy beyond round 2, or the navy built by the US stationed west of GB by round 3. Yes, Japan had a cake walk in the south for a while, but I managed an organized retreat from tha Japanese on all fronts. By the time Japan had enough forces massed to make it’s first attempt in round 7, Russia always had 25+ russian troops, 6 allied inf, 2 planes, and at least 4 other allied planes defending her. Even though the Allies had to way till round 3 to make their push into Europe, Germany was in no position to help Japan by round 6, and was ripe to fall by no later than round 8. Because the allies shored up Russia’s western front, Russia was collecting 7 inf worth on money every round. With the fighters(and other cheap ground units) being thithed off by the US and GB, Russia could hold indefinitely after round 8.
This being said…. Germany would fall sooner(round 6 or 7) if they don’t pick up the extra coin for a while. For the IPC expenditure, Africa is well worth the effort. I have only seen the Axis win once without getting into Africa… Russian player(me, first time playing Russia) didn’t stack properly on Japanese front… Had the Japs knocking on Moscow’s door by end of round 4… eeek.
Wilk
Wilk
Overall, I believe it is worth while for Germany to make an attempt to take Africa. The German Med fleet is in trouble to begin with so make the British use their units to attack the fleet after dumping off an infantry and artillery into Anglo-Egypt. Force the UK to use their forces to keep Africa from falling into the German’s hands.
If Germany holds some of Africa, then there are less IPCs going into an invasion of Germany. If the US or UK move to bail out Africa, then there are less units going to invade Germany.
Overall, the German effort is minimal and the Allied effort is significant. This fits into my book as a “worthy” cause, but don’t get your hope up too high on taking over the entire continent.
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See Wilk’s got the idea. The Axis is set up for more losses than wins because it’s too slow to take Russia.
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Chuckle…
Give the Germans an 8 bid… drop a tranny in the Baltic, burn all your IPCs getting long range aircraft… Sea Lion out of the gate… Use the Atlantic sub to block US from counter… Game over 1st round :-D
Wilk
See Wilk’s got the idea. The Axis is set up for more losses than wins because it’s too slow to take Russia.
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well lol if you’re using LHTR techs apply at the end of your turn so you can’t research LRA and then immediatley use their increased range to attack London.
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Nod… with the 8 bid… Does Germany have enough to take GB outright anyway?.. 4 ground with 2 planes and a bomber… would be close… besides… You could build 5 trannies and strafe GB in round one and sea lion outright in round 2… instead of going after Egypt in round one… You could bring the Med fleet east… take out the BB and attack GB with 8 trannies in units… plus 5 planes and a bomber… risky… A gimmick attack, but would be fun to try once for kicks.
Wilk
well lol if you’re using LHTR techs apply at the end of your turn so you can’t research LRA and then immediatley use their increased range to attack London.
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You’re about 65% total chance to not invade GB with a transport bid and a round 1 attack, so 35% success. One Russian fighter in GB puts you down to about 11% success. A second Russian fighter puts you at about 2.5%.
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Interesting topic.
I played a game yesterday, as Germany. On T1 I built a baltic AC and 8 inf. I attacked Anglo-Egypt w 1 tank and 1 inf from SEUR. Destroyed the DD with BB in a single hit. Took planes from the balkans to attack anglo egypt and landed them in Lybia. I attacked Gibraltar BB with atlantic sub, 2 fightrs 1 bomb. Egypt fell on round 1. Africa was wide open cause the brits were also busy defending their “commonwealth” factory in India :-D.
On the next few turns, I was able to assault Caucus with a transport and a shore bombardment without interference from the Indian Navy. Moreover, i could bring reinforcements on the eastern front much faster than on foot with my transport. I landed a single tank in Africa and it gave me an extra 10 ipc’s per turn…
Of course the americans landed in Morocco, but at the expense of their expeditionnary force and a part of their fleet.
With Africa not only you gain IPC’s, but also time, by distracting the Allies at the expense of very few combat forces. A single tank and two infantry aren’t going to make a huge difference on the eastern front if you play wisely.
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